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The case for the decentralization of online forums

171 点作者 viksit将近 2 年前

27 条评论

rsync将近 2 年前
We are holding this discussion on a classic, centralized, web1.0 forum which - from my vantage point - is one of the most valuable and enriching forums currently online.<p>What&#x27;s wrong with HN ? What&#x27;s wrong with metafilter ? What&#x27;s wrong with letsrun or doom9 ?<p>The problem is the mistaken notion that these can be big businesses.<p>If you can let go of the economics there is no technical - or usability - hurdle.<p>We know this because we&#x27;re <i>already doing it right here</i>.
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janoc将近 2 年前
The problem is that people think that decentralization somehow solves the problem.<p>It doesn&#x27;t. In most cases, like Reddit or Twitter or Mastodon or whatever the issue isn&#x27;t that something is centralized but that things actually <i>do cost money to build and run</i>.<p>Even decentralized architectures like Mastodon need that - and very few people actually want to pay for it. That is why the various efforts to monetize the content, lock down APIs and push in your face ads happen.<p>The VCs that were paying for Twitter or Reddit aren&#x27;t willing to do that forever - and neither of the companies are actually making profit or even not making a loss. Whether that is because the business is poorly run or some other problem is secondary but unless they start to make money somehow, they will close down at some point. It is <i>that</i> simple.<p>The article - like most that spout these &#x27;decentralization solves everything&#x27; (same like blockchain&#x2F;crypto&#x2F;web3&#x2F;metaverse&#x2F;etc.) mantras completely ignore this problem or handwave it away. As if a decentralized system ran on fairy dust and unicorn poop and didn&#x27;t need to pay for servers, electricity, wages, etc. Sorry, but that&#x27;s not how the world works, folks.<p>If you don&#x27;t want to pay money for a service then that leaves the operator with either ads - or has to pay it out of their own pocket. No &quot;defi&quot; or &quot;fedi&quot; solves that - only makes things maybe more resilient when one operator goes bankrupt or rogue. But the rest still have to pay their expenses somehow.<p>Also the entire premise is BS - as if online forums were somehow centralized and everyone was prevented from running their own server and community, using their own rules (no &quot;censorship&quot; or &quot;cancel culture&quot;! Yay!) and money (a-ha!). Reddit, Twitter, Facebook etc. aren&#x27;t the only places where one can have a discussion or post information.
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hn_throwaway_99将近 2 年前
Sorry, I don&#x27;t buy it:<p>1. Regarding the monetization scheme, nobody has ever gotten anything to really significantly work beyond advertising. Yes, there are some niche solutions that can support a dev team of maybe 1, but at the end of the day most people aren&#x27;t willing to pay with anything except their time.<p>2. Social networks that don&#x27;t have at least some level of top-down moderation always seem to turn into complete cesspools that fail. You could say reddit relies on their volunteer moderators, and that&#x27;s totally true, but even these moderators must abide by rules, reddit has terminated numerous subreddits in the past for breaking the rules, etc.<p>I think people should fundamentally accept that humans can&#x27;t &quot;self organize&quot; at a very large scale on the Internet. I think the reason for this is that anonymity (and I obviously see the irony in me posting about this) completely breaks our normal human systems of &quot;checks and balances&quot;. I honestly think Mike Tyson said it best: &quot;Social media made you all way too comfortable with disrespecting people and not getting punched in the face for it.&quot; There are just too few downsides to being a complete asshole or troll online, where in the real world there are natural consequences for acting that way.
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dv_dt将近 2 年前
Not to say there should be only centralized solutions, but there are tradeoffs. The case against decentralization is that moderation and resisting network attacks can be non-trivial amounts of work. Many newspapers shut down their forums for lack of being able to form a quality level of conversation forum without a massive amount of work. In the case of reddit, a subreddit could share the work of building common moderation strategies and tools, increasing the quality accessible. Ironically, reddit killing their third-party api, kills some of their centralization advantages in this respect.<p>Sharing common work is possible in decentralized forums, but only with somewhat standardized interfaces. Of which activity-pub and mastodon et al are sort of just on the starting path. Every forum choosing among a myriad of forum interfaces makes other subdomains of the same solution harder to coordinate and mature vs centralized.
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joker99将近 2 年前
In all of this I&#x27;m wondering: why not apply the Wikipedia model to reddit? Create a foundation that employs a couple of people, that host and develop the site. Keep the volunteer mods, but lay down some guidelines for moderation. Fund it like Wikipedia is funded, like lots of submissions on HN have shown in the past, Wikipedia is swimming in money. Not everything needs to be for profit... Decentralized funding combined with centralized non profit operation would seem like a non perfect but very workable solution to this problem
jedberg将近 2 年前
I see a lot of people throwing out Usenet as an option, and I wonder, did anyone here ever have to admin a Usenet node? It&#x27;s a huge pain in the ass. First off, the storage requirements are both unlimited and unpredictable. Someone might post some huge files to a group, and all of a sudden your server disk is full. You could set your server to drop large messages or attachments, but then you didn&#x27;t have the complete message.<p>Then there was spam. Everyone had to do their own spam filtering. Or ... pay an upstream provider to do it for you. In which case they&#x27;re basically the centralized solution.<p>The reason Internet forums took off was because it was way easier to let one central group manager the spam and load and network and disk and.... instead of everyone doing it themselves.
olh将近 2 年前
Flarum got a grant to make it federated like Mastodon.<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;discuss.flarum.org&#x2F;d&#x2F;32812-the-future-of-flarum-in-2023-balancing-open-source-and-success" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;discuss.flarum.org&#x2F;d&#x2F;32812-the-future-of-flarum-in-2...</a>
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flagrant_taco将近 2 年前
I&#x27;ve never quite wrapped my head around where decentralization ends and federation begins.<p>What&#x27;s really the difference between the two? Is it a question of degree, or in this example is it only decentralized if individuals in the network own their own content?
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armchairhacker将近 2 年前
Decentralization is important because you need a point of reach in case you get cut off from the centralized platform or (more likely) it gets taken down. Otherwise you’re cut off, or a group is cut off and dissolves.<p>But word spreads around pretty easily, and even though most forums are centralized, there are a lot of forums. Many centralized platforms = a decentralized platform, because people connected to multiple will share messages across channels.<p>The biggest issue is like, in the Reddit debacle, many communities are likely to be hurt or even destroyed. And it will be hard to re-form them and get near the same amount of popularity
seydor将近 2 年前
we have tried decentralization and it doesnt work because the internet is no longer in its baby state. People reminisce of those rosy times where only a few select highly educated people were online but this is not going to be the case ever again. Trust is not a solved problem<p>The best we can hope is we can build AI-moderated content systems where the AI is subject to some form of self-governement by the community by e.g. voting among possible moderation models. Adding humans into the mix always invite uncomfortable gatekeeping and political issues
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nunobrito将近 2 年前
On that article, decentralization only means going back to early 2000&#x27;s with small hosted forum sites or something still centralized like Mastodon.<p>Technology truly moved far in the meanwhile. At the moment the only protocol that goes beyond expectations is Nostr.<p>Over there it doesn&#x27;t matter where your data is hosted and there are zero blochains. The only thing that matters is your private key (identity) and with that you can always write wherever someone is willing to accept your writings.<p>Quite a novelty paradigm, worthy of a true sucessor to Usenet.
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EuAndreh将近 2 年前
Why not email and mailing lists?<p>Past all email limitations, a simple mbox archives everything. It works offline, is decentralized, etc.
deafpolygon将近 2 年前
I think we need a decentralization authentication platform. Not a decentralized online forum. One of the reasons why people don&#x27;t like going to different forums - having to make a new sign-up, having to give out your e-mail, and having to remember a new set of passwords. In a world when security breaches are common, having to remember that one forum you created an account for and logged into... is off-putting. People love Facebook because, log in and done. Log into Messenger, connect it to WhatsApp, Instagram. Their entire world is right there.<p>The first step to cut through all that is the ability to get everyone onto a common auth platform. But no one wants to do that because that means sharing user data, having to share the users with other possible platforms.
mikewarot将近 2 年前
You&#x27;ll always keep running into security issues AND the need for moderation at the heart of any community.<p>It is <i>possible</i> to actually solve the security issues technically, but that is likely a generation away. Until then, the fact that the servers AND the users computer are insecure lead almost inevitably to walled gardens, and avoiding innovation.<p>Thus there will be centralized locii of control for the foreseeable future. We can&#x27;t democratize the way we use the internet back into a true commons until usable secure general purpose computing becomes widely available and adopted.<p>We had it (secure general purpose computing) in the early 1980s with floppy based computers and dialup. I thought we&#x27;d get it back by 2030, but I&#x27;m not as hopeful any more.
imtringued将近 2 年前
The problem with online forums is the need for moderation. Decentralisation doesn&#x27;t make moderation irrelevanty in fact it becomes more relevant because people have to store other people&#x27;s data and trust me you don&#x27;t want to store everything.
mnd999将近 2 年前
This is just Usenet. Everyone used to use it and it still exists.
mikece将近 2 年前
Couldn&#x27;t ActivityPub be used to as the protocol for this without any modifications? I don&#x27;t see a logical difference between the structure of Pleroma&#x2F;Mastodon conversations and a message forum aside from how the UI is presented. If someone took the UI of phpBB but used ActivityPub as the data source it should Just Work(tm).
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andreygrehov将近 2 年前
I think decentralization is important.<p>Many centralized forums these days have their own &quot;narrative&quot;. It could be of a political or economical nature. For example, each moderator on Reddit is biased towards what should and should not be published on &quot;their&quot; sub-reddit.<p>Here on HN unconventional wisdom is not welcomed either. Posts get easily downvoted to the bottom and then visually suppressed, hinting other readers: &quot;hey, look, this opinion is not important, feel free to either ignore it or downvote&quot;. This visual suppression is, imho, a subconscious manipulation. Why nudge readers toward a certain direction? Let everyone decide on their own.<p>The current standard is &quot;agree with me or you’re a white supremacist tinfoil hat conspiracy theorist and a nazi&quot;. Alternative opinion is akin to a crime.<p>Twitter is moving in the right direction (unconventional wisdom). There are very few bots left (barely see any). Irrespective of your political spectrum, nobody&#x27;s going to ban you. Everyone is welcome on the platform. Twitter is about to start sharing ad revenue with content creators, which is a fantastic move in my opinion.<p>Lack of moderation brings everything into a balance – a self-organized chaos which is the closest thing to what our everyday lives are.
ChrisMarshallNY将近 2 年前
I’m just kind of … <i>aghast</i> … at the thought of reviving UseNet.<p>Mastodon seems to be a good canary, to see how decentralization works. It’s already well under way.<p>But I’m just a scarred, traumatized old soldier, and my opinion probably doesn’t count for much.<p>Maybe we really do need another alt.tasteless. It would seem quaint, compared to today’s foolishness.
rambambram将近 2 年前
And then at the end of an article with nice ideas for an open web, there&#x27;s a link to a Twitter account. Viksit.com has an RSS feed (which I follow now, with my own website that works perfect on an open web), but there&#x27;s no mention anywhere, also no RSS logo anywhere. Strange, haha.
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Berticus12将近 2 年前
Moderation and ownership should go hand and hand. Moderators in Reddit essentially have fake sweat equity for their efforts. There has to be a better model and I think decentralization is key.
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marginalia_nu将近 2 年前
A big reason forums centralized in the first place was the maintenance cost. I don&#x27;t see anything has changed in that regard.<p>Reddit and similar solved it through economics of scale.
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phas0ruk将近 2 年前
If the platforms revenue doesn’t come from ads, where does it come from?
samsquire将近 2 年前
I&#x27;m starting a decentralised blog network<p>I want people to create GitHub repositories for their blogs and just post to README.md in reverse chronological order.<p>Then email me your blog repository URL or reply here and I&#x27;ll create a curated list of blogs.
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moneywoes将近 2 年前
How does moderation work with decentralization
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acco102将近 2 年前
Bitmessage is decentralized and works.
sebastos将近 2 年前
Like many of you, I often get nerd-sniped into thinking about what it would take to create a perfect, frictionless medium for decentralized communication. All of the usual hits, like IPFS, paid posts via micro-transactions, etc. often make an appearance in these brainstorms.<p>But today, I took another tack: I started wondering what it would actually _be_ like if you had such a technology. Skip the &#x27;how&#x27;, and just imagine there was a way to open an edit-text field and send your message to &quot;the world&quot;, with no intervening centralized boogeyman waiting in the middle.<p>The thing that suddenly struck me is the question of how anybody would _find_ your message. Ok, you yeeted your thought out into cyberspace - who cares? Who&#x27;s going to read it?<p>I find that in my own habits, the question of who&#x27;s going to read my message has a LOT to do with how interested I am in sending it. I suddenly realized that this is the critical point. Something that Reddit has going for it is that using it has the subjective quality of going to a _place_ in the world - a fixed place that others can find. It&#x27;s not just that your content is discoverable per se, but rather that it _will be discovered_, because it is posted in a known, frequented place that will have other eyeballs. Like Martin Luther&#x27;s 95 Theses, _where_ you post most messages has a lot to do with how interesting they are. It&#x27;s accessibility, yes, but also the practical question of whether people will actually exercise their ability to access it. If Martin Luther had nailed his theses to a random tree in the forest with complex directions on how to go find it, it just wouldn&#x27;t have been the same. They would have been almost as easy to access (except perhaps for people who didn&#x27;t find it easy to navigate the forest), but the fact the church door was an inherently centralized high-traffic zone WAS what made it interesting.<p>Perhaps this sounds a bit trite, but I&#x27;ve started to realize that we crave centralized places to converse because conversing isn&#x27;t nearly as much fun without an audience. The Reddits and Twitters of the world are popular and interesting _because_ they are a centralization of our communications - a front door of the church we can pin things to. If you find yourself thinking this is very incomplete, give it a beat. For instance, like me, you might have some level of disdain for performative soap-box&#x27;ing on a platform like Twitter. You might object that &quot;sure, a lot of Reddit was crappy, affected karma-farming, but I just used it to discuss analog audio equipment and ask tech support questions about Rust!&quot;. But even niche interests, tech support, NSFW subreddits - the are all fundamentally relying on the same principles of knowing that you will have an audience. You might want different audiences at different times, of course, but most of the fun is related to how close you can get to the upper bound of who you wish could look at your content. Maybe you don&#x27;t really care that the whole WORLD can see your post, just that the entire world of ukulele enthusiasts can see it. But within that slice, the more the better. Also the more that you put those disparate audiences next to each together with a central nexus &#x2F; map, the bigger overall audience you can expect to have due to cross-pollination.<p>I bet that if you&#x27;re really honest with yourself about what your favorite places to discuss weird topics in the 90&#x27;s were, you&#x27;ll realize that even though it was some phpbb forum, there was some microcosm of centralization going on, if even just at the level of human affairs. If it was some esoteric hobby, then you were probably talking on the official forums of some organization that ran the biggest public events related to that hobby, or whatever. Whatever it was, there was _some_ germ of a winner of a popularity contest - some entity that had the visibility and recognition to centralize the discussion and make it a place where you might get some interesting eyes on your text.<p>I could be misunderstanding some of the fediverse, but it seems like there&#x27;s an explicit intention to create these autonomous sub-communities and remove any kind of centralizing authority. But really, that top layer generally IS the value, and is how you create a sense of Place. You can make the infrastructure as decentralized as you want, of course, but if the discussions themselves don&#x27;t feel like they&#x27;re happening on the church doors, you really don&#x27;t have anything a phpbb forum doesn&#x27;t have. You&#x27;ve basically just got people sending messages out into the void, which is about as fun and interesting as talking to a customer support chatbot. So, at _some_ resolution, none of this is interesting unless you&#x27;re giving people a way to post their content in THE place to discuss this topic. &quot;A&quot; place to discuss this topic is comparatively worthless.<p>Zooming way way out, I want to make a higher-level comment using an analogy. All of online experience is a lot like a party. There are many things that it&#x27;s good to have for a party: food, music, drinks, entertainment, shuttle service - lots of things. Yet we can all think back to parties that forewent some or all of these things and still gave us fond memories. There are a few things, however, that your party _has_ to have, like, definitionally: a place to be, and great people that show up. A party without these things isn&#x27;t a party. And if you organize all of the nice-to-haves, but skip the essentials, then you&#x27;ve just got something very sad... like a loud, well-catered, empty basement. Related - sometimes bigger parties are better, but at a certain point, things just end up crowded, and probably a lot of your favorite people have left anyway. Once somebody starts charging exorbitant rates at the door, things might be headed downhill.<p>The point of the analogy is that where we humans choose to gather online is a fluid and vexing thing. You&#x27;re going to find it impossible to write hard-and-fast laws about how your new discussion space should work because all that really matters is people are finding a way to have fun. This party-like quality, more than anything else, accounts for the ephemeral nature of all online platforms, and the natural herd migrations from myspaces to facebooks to instagrams to snapchats to tiktoks, etc. And sure, AFTER the fact, you can look back and give a technical analysis of why Facebook succeeded. You can also look back on your party and point to specific things that created a fun situation. But this never transmutes into some kind of formula for future success, and if you think you have one, you&#x27;re probably chasing last night&#x27;s party. Are we so sure that holding the party at Brad&#x27;s house is what made the party bad? Yeah, he started charging $5 a head, and a bunch of jerks showed up at the end. But I&#x27;m not so sure that means we should swear off house parties from now on. Like, I salute the open-mindedness of the guys trying to figure out a way to hold a party without a host... you know, as a thought experiment. But it would be cool if there was a place to hang out next Friday, too...