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To save money on insurance, drivers agree to intrusive monitoring technology

168 点作者 mcone将近 2 年前

47 条评论

mholt将近 2 年前
Utah views EV drivers as tax evaders because they don&#x27;t buy gas. So they have a &quot;deal&quot; for EV drivers: pay an exorbitant registration fee (hundreds more than other vehicles) or install an OBD device in your car and carry a surveillance app to be charged for how much your vehicle is driven [0]. The measurement route requires 2 separate accounts with 3rd parties, one of which has your payment information on file.<p>Given that states can&#x27;t even get voting right [1], this is not the future I wanted. (Plus, we should be incentivizing EV purchases at this stage, not punishing them.)<p>(Heck, they put my marriage license on a <i>blockchain</i> for some dumb reason. I didn&#x27;t even <i>want</i> it on a blockchain!)<p>[0]: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;roadusagecharge.utah.gov&#x2F;" rel="nofollow noreferrer">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;roadusagecharge.utah.gov&#x2F;</a><p>[1]: Basically anything by <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;twitter.com&#x2F;jhalderm" rel="nofollow noreferrer">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;twitter.com&#x2F;jhalderm</a>
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SavageBeast将近 2 年前
A former girlfriend of mine came home one day with one of these devices plugged into her car. She was the kind of person who just said &quot;yes&quot; to whatever was on the form and she simply picked the lowest price option. My head immediately goes to the scenario where theres been some kind of an accident. Maybe it&#x27;s a fender bender or maybe a pedestrian was hit. In one case you have a couple damaged cars and a deductible. In the other case you&#x27;re facing down a manslaughter charge and even if you&#x27;re not at fault it&#x27;s going to ruin your life.<p>So now imagine law enforcement has access to your cumulative driving habits&#x2F;traits and the last 20 minutes of driving that day. Imagine the insurance company has processed that data for its own purpose and assigned some kind of (totally arbitrary and contrived) &quot;aggressive&quot; or &quot;risk&quot; rating to certain actions etc. Law enforcement now has a prepackaged report that will invariably say you&#x27;re a terrible driver. Of course the data collected is going to say that as the insurance companies aren&#x27;t in business to charge people LESS money.<p>Now, whether or not you were or were not driving in a reckless manner, theres data to make a case with and nobody is perfect. That data may or may not reflect the reality of the situation and even so, prosecutors are known to take the easy route to boost their own stats. Now imagine a prosecutor looking for an easy win has a prepackaged report of biased information from the insurance company?<p>This whole thing seems like a way to possibly save a trivial amount of money in exchange for an increased likelihood of Really Bad Things happening to you.
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otter-in-a-suit将近 2 年前
I&#x27;ve both worked on systems like that professionally and built some myself just for fun to play with GPS&#x2F;geospatial data&#x2F;streaming etc (fun tech). I&#x27;d _never_ want something like that installed in my vehicle.<p>First off, you&#x27;re usually relying on ODB-2 + GPS + usually some type of streaming backend, which means you&#x27;re looking at 2 unreliable (or, at least, hard to _interpret_) sources of data delivered and presumably analyzed by a notoriously tricky delivery mechanism (near-real time streaming), which has a tendency to be too much to handle for the notoriously non-&quot;tech&quot; insurance world. The chances that data is being interpreted quite differently to what&#x27;s happening on the road, but yet is treated as a source of truth for your premium model!, is certainly not zero.<p>Even if you assume these companies handle all that properly (or outsource it), these data sets are some of the creepiest by their very nature - not only can you trivially determine somebody&#x27;s home address by analyzing frequency of the reverse-geocoded data points (or any other geospatial features you derive), you can also determine any other patterns within a person&#x27;s life - schedules, work location &amp; employer, health habits (do they go to the gym or a bar? do they only ever leave to go to the grocery store?) etc., not to mention all the data ODB-2 gives you about actual driving behavior. And guess what, you can&#x27;t use synthetic data for testing for much of this (I tried), so we would up testing these systems with real data, albeit with employees who volunteered.<p>A home address is arguably not that sensitive, given that that is public record if you own your home and your insurance company has that data anyways, but the patterns + all the other metadata + all the &quot;public&quot; data that is out there ready for purchase about the average American, now you have something close to a personality profile that would make your average marketing exec (or, potentially, bad government actor) squeal in delight.
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aidenn0将近 2 年前
It feels to me more and more like you need to be rich to afford living without bartering away your personal information.<p>I&#x27;m getting to be middle aged now, and have noticed a fatalistic attitude towards this by gen Z; kind of &quot;it&#x27;s impossible to maintain privacy, so I might as well milk my loss of privacy for all it&#x27;s worth.&quot;<p>And I&#x27;m wondering now if that&#x27;s not completely correct.
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crmd将近 2 年前
When I tried this a few years ago, the unit beeped when it sensed braking or lane changes it didn’t like. It beeped <i>constantly</i> in the course of normal New York City defensive driving. I found myself running more than one red light to avoid the “hard braking” beep.<p>It completely eliminated any enjoyment of the new car I sacrificed to save up for.<p>After 3 months I was horrified to get an email with a list of time stamped infractions and an offer for a 15% reduction in my premium.<p>Yeah, no. I switched to Geico, cut my premium in half, and vowed never to willingly trade surveillance for an insurance discount.
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menus将近 2 年前
I cannot find the source but I recall reading that telematics insurance causes more incidents as it makes drivers afraid of braking hard, knowing that any maneuver by you to avoid a deranged driver is counted against you.<p>I can only find anecdotal references <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.quora.com&#x2F;Does-Progressive-Auto-insurance-actually-want-me-to-wreck-That-snapshot-GPS-device-beeps-every-time-I-hit-the-brake-to-avoid-hitting-the-drivers-who-pull-out-in-front-of-me" rel="nofollow noreferrer">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.quora.com&#x2F;Does-Progressive-Auto-insurance-actual...</a>
4rt将近 2 年前
This has been extremely common in the UK for about 10 years - especially for young drivers.<p>I warned my nephew off it but sure enough, he took the £200 (£1400 to £1200) discount on insurance. His insurance was cancelled because they say he did over 35mph in a 30 zone, so now his insurance premiums are £2000+ because he has to declare he has a history of having an insurance policy cancelled.
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samtho将近 2 年前
This reads like an article from &#x2F;r&#x2F;ABoringDystopia that showcases, among other things, technology that was suppose to improve people’s lives is actively weaponized against them.<p>What worries about this from a consumer level is that the insurance companies are not required to disregard old data. If you got a speeding ticket or other minor infraction, it will eventually drop off of your driving record as far as your insurance is concerned. Which makes sense and seems more fair because you are not necessarily the same driver you were two years ago. My concern is that they will keep this data in the aggregate and indefinitely penalize drivers with insurance rates that don’t actually reflect their present risk during a policy term.
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oatmeal1将近 2 年前
This is one of the <i>least bad</i> invasions of privacy I&#x27;ve seen. It shifts the burden of insurance premiums more towards those likely to cause accidents, and incentivizes people to minimize dangerous behavior behind the wheel. There are actual benefits to responsible people, and to society at large, which is not something you frequently see with invasion of privacy.
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phkahler将近 2 年前
First it&#x27;s a discount. Then it&#x27;s a penalty for not playing. Then it&#x27;s just everyone.
AnAnonymousDude将近 2 年前
Recently were shopping insurance providers for our brick and mortar business that has a few delivery vehicles, and MANY of the commercial insurers are requiring that their apps be used to monitor employee driving behavior. I hadn&#x27;t shopped for insurance in quite awhile and was shocked at how prevalent this requirement seemed to be.
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thedougd将近 2 年前
In NC we have mandatory yearly safety inspections. To renew your registration you must pass inspection. It would be easy for them to use the odometer reading at the inspection to assess a road use tax.<p>We do already pay a gas tax and a yearly property tax at the state and local level for cars plus a sales tax on new cars.
Tade0将近 2 年前
My relative in the UK got a black box because insurance for beginner drivers is pretty high. Her summary is that punishing hard braking is counterproductive.<p>Her relative also had it for three months, but after that the insurance company said he would be better off without it.
geitir将近 2 年前
<i>hypothetically</i> it’s pretty easy to fake the odb reader versions of these. Just buy a male to 2 female odb splitter, strip one and hook a 9 volt battery and usb charger to the power wires.<p>Plug your device into your car and turn it on, wait for device to blink green, attach 9 volt and unplug, carry inside and plug in usb charger to the wall.
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don-code将近 2 年前
How do these apps work, in practice? The article states:<p>&gt; If you’re at the wheel focused on the road, but someone in the passenger seat is changing the music on your phone, the app may think it’s observing distracted driving and count it against you.<p>Is the app running on the car, or on the user&#x27;s phone, which somehow detects that the user is driving a car? Is there some way that a paired phone (Bluetooth - or maybe this is a feature of CarPlay &#x2F; Android Auto) can tell a car that it&#x27;s being used?
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droopyEyelids将近 2 年前
I got this from Liberty Mutual and it was an awesome mutually beneficial agreement.<p>Liberty Mutual only records your behavior for one quarter, and then gives you a discount for as long as you hold your policy. I ended up with a permanent 28% discount!<p>It analyzes your driving based on four factors: total miles drive, how fast you accelerate and decelerate, and whether you drive in the wee hours.<p>I found the temporary loss of privacy to be totally reasonable and an excellent tradeoff.
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Waterluvian将近 2 年前
I tried this with an app. They offered 2% off after a month of data collection.<p>I called and turns out my insurance was already so “low” that 2% is the most it would have ever offered.<p>I dunno about elsewhere but in Canada, insurance is like tech job salaries, the only real way to get the best deal is to change providers every few years.
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sramam将近 2 年前
I&#x27;m a holdout on this tech for privacy reasons.<p>Wonder how self-incriminating that is - at some tipping point of adoption, not opting in becomes THE negative signal.<p>Outside regulation to limit retention and prevent misuse of data is there even a longer term option here?<p>Perhaps I should capitulate early and save more money.
gwbas1c将近 2 年前
&gt; Insurance companies may think you’re a higher-risk driver if you’re accelerating fast, braking aggressively, making sharp turns, using your phone while you drive, coming home at 3 a.m., taking dangerous roads or simply driving a lot.<p>Is there any proof that any of these behaviors actually correlate with tangible risk? (I mean, I can understand that &quot;simply driving a lot&quot; increases risk.)<p>Personally, I&#x27;d be more interested in cars with cameras using machine learning to build a risk profile of other cars. I&#x27;m not the only person who sees dangerous behavior all the time. It would be interesting if I could sell a stream from my cameras to a company that builds risk profiles based on observed behavior.
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bparsons将近 2 年前
Car drivers are used to constantly breaking the law, endangering pedestrians and other road users and seeing zero consequences. Even in cases of hit and run homicides, the driver rarely faces jail time. <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;abcnews.go.com&#x2F;US&#x2F;hit-run-drivers-kill-people-jail-time-rarely&#x2F;story?id=61845988" rel="nofollow noreferrer">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;abcnews.go.com&#x2F;US&#x2F;hit-run-drivers-kill-people-jail-t...</a><p>Technology could play a big role in ensuring people actually follow the rules and are held accountable for criminal negligence causing injury or death.
rektide将近 2 年前
I hate this but man am I tempted. I take my old car out for like 2k miles a year.<p>I think of getting rid of it but it takes so little time &amp; money to keep around, and it&#x27;s great being able to do occasional road trips. Otherwise I&#x27;d totally get rid of it. Insurance is the biggest cost, but pretty cheap all-in-all.<p>Given how little it&#x27;s used, and given what a generally chill driver I am, I do think I deserve a better deal. Then again, it&#x27;s old &amp; I don&#x27;t think it has OBD, so I&#x27;m probably not eligible anyways.
celeritascelery将近 2 年前
A few years ago our insurance would give us a discount if we added a small monitoring device to the car for 2 months. We agreed and at the end of the time we mailed it back to them. Now we have switched companies and the new one doesn’t have a discreet device, but instead want me to install an app that has 24 hour access to my location on my phone. That was too much for me. So instead a bought the cheapest android phone I could find, and installed the app on that and left it in the car.
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garphunkle将近 2 年前
I like to joke that as usage based insurance goes to infinity, we all become uninsured drivers...<p>Each insurance company uses the telematics differently. While the pricing model is regulated, it is not public. There is a substantial difference company-to-company<p>I think this is an instance of HN-confirmation bias. We all hate monitoring, so a study or article that says UBI and behavioral modification is harmful appeals to us.
hysan将近 2 年前
Yup, I saw that offer with my auto-insurance provider and despite knowing how much data they’d be harvesting, I was still tempted to do it. Insurance just costs so much. It doesn’t matter if you have a perfect driving record for almost 2 decades. Costs just slowly creep up just like everything else. It feels like we’re in a world where privacy and data ownership is a luxury reserved for the wealthy.
penguin_booze将近 2 年前
When I got my UK driving insurance, I was in my 30s. By that time, I had been driving for many years elsewhere. Even then, I remember the first year&#x27;s rather eye-watering. IIRC, it was just under GBP 1000 - the price of a rickety used car in UK.<p>Soon, I discovered that Aviva had a plan for which you can signup: you download the app, and leave that active (data and location) while driving. The app monitors your driving pattern for aound 200 miles. Then it scores you out of 10. I felt smug that I scored 9.7 (IIRC). And, as promised, I got a rather neat discount on my insurance. IIRC, it came under GBP 300.<p>I just wanted to say that alternatives like the above exists.<p>Aviva continued to quote me lowest, until this year. I had to move away because, it happend to me, too, what happens to every loyal customer in the UK: deals popup elsewhere that are available only to new customers. So, exploring switching providers every now and then, is worthwhile.
JTbane将近 2 年前
I wouldn&#x27;t agree to these kinds of devices simply because they are cheap junk that can damage your car. <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.kiro7.com&#x2F;news&#x2F;insurance-tracking-device-blamed-car-damage&#x2F;82088181&#x2F;" rel="nofollow noreferrer">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.kiro7.com&#x2F;news&#x2F;insurance-tracking-device-blamed-...</a>
1231112315123将近 2 年前
My experience with telematics-enabled driving is quite positive. I&#x27;m saving 30% easily, simply by driving relaxed.<p>I don&#x27;t think I&#x27;m giving away much personal data: The insurance set up a separate legal entity that performs the ranking, with a easy-to-read EULA that rules out selling data.<p>My insurance is using the Cambridge Mobile Telematics modules.
kbos87将近 2 年前
There&#x27;s no such thing as a device that only &quot;saves you money&quot; - insurers are going to use the data to give you a discount one minute, and take it away the next. My insurance already shows a line item for a &quot;safe driver discount&quot; - I&#x27;m sure it&#x27;s only a matter of time until I have to fork over my data to &quot;keep&quot; the &quot;discount&quot; they&#x27;ve already built into their list price.<p>Great case in point, Tesla insurance dings people for &quot;late night driving&quot; -<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.reddit.com&#x2F;r&#x2F;TeslaModelY&#x2F;comments&#x2F;10xaj74&#x2F;do_not_drive_after_10_pm_tesla_insurance&#x2F;" rel="nofollow noreferrer">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.reddit.com&#x2F;r&#x2F;TeslaModelY&#x2F;comments&#x2F;10xaj74&#x2F;do_not...</a>
blackbear_将近 2 年前
The only way I would even <i>consider</i> to have one of these things is if the insurance premium would be reduced proportionally to how much I (don&#x27;t) drive. Only use the car on Sundays? Pay 1&#x2F;7 of the price.<p>But of course prices can only go up.
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belval将近 2 年前
Is this considered new? In Canada I had an app on my phone for 100 days which tracked accelerations&#x2F;break&#x2F;speed. Sure it felt intrusive-ish, but the program was not mandatory so seems like a win-win. I got a 22% discount (got 96&#x2F;100!) and now the app is off my phone.<p>I would not recommend it if you don&#x27;t live in the suburbs though. Slow and steady is the name of the game, ideally you want light traffic and mostly empty roads.
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nimih将近 2 年前
The headline seems quite disingenuous when the article is based on a study that puts the adoption rate of these surveillance technologies at around 14%.
PlunderBunny将近 2 年前
Waiting for insurance companies to &#x27;team up&#x27; and &#x27;exploit synergies&#x27; with car companies to &#x27;enhance revenue&#x27;, so that this stuff it built in, and you don&#x27;t get to turn it off.
kornhole将近 2 年前
Privacy to the weak and transparency to the powerful cannot be achieved while companies put the poorer in these positions of lower price if you agree to be surveilled. How do we fix this?
hospitalJail将近 2 年前
Sounds good to me. Maybe they will see that highway speeds are too low and I get to save money.<p>Although its going to be really awkward when they find out my home address and kid&#x27;s daycare.
nonethewiser将近 2 年前
Ever since covid and working remotely I drive about 20% of what I used to. I&#x27;m guessing this device wont recognize that and reduce my bill to 20% the original amount.
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RobotToaster将近 2 年前
We should start calling this stuff what it is, meatspace spyware.
jonstewart将近 2 年前
A far better solution than historical GPS tracking by insurance companies (backed by bad&#x2F;noisy) would be for cars to impose a hard +10% cap on speeding.
two2two将近 2 年前
&quot;Among other things...&quot; Like speeding? Like traffic-light cameras, this will result in unintended consequences at scale. But hey, more data!
mercurialsolo将近 2 年前
This isn&#x27;t new . We all agreed to be the product and give our data away for free product access .
Lolaccount将近 2 年前
&quot;For a small convenience, or a few pennies saved ... we&#x27;ll give up our entire world&quot;.
WirelessGigabit将近 2 年前
It&#x27;s starting to feel like Europe.<p>In Belgium you couldn&#x27;t drive a miles without being recorded on some ALPR camera.<p>Speed cameras everywhere. And the current rage is average speed cameras. So they take your photo on an on-ramp and when you take the exit they&#x27;ll calculate the average. Above the speed limit: ticket. With no way of facing your accuser in court. The machine said so...
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jononomo将近 2 年前
All you people worried about privacy should consider the fact that every thought you have and dream you dream is recorded in your DNA and will be read out before the world when you stand in judgment before God.
pbj1968将近 2 年前
To make money, people agree to sit at a desk nine hours a day.<p>Water wet.
Steven420将近 2 年前
Some people were born to be serfs
throwaway1777将近 2 年前
Old news tbh
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whoomp12342将近 2 年前
no we dont. How about insurance figures out their own stuff
programmertote将近 2 年前
I read a comment here saying that they didn&#x27;t like Progressive Snapshot, so they switched to Geico and cut their rate in half. This is my most recent anecdote as a different experience.<p>I was paying $620 (for 6 months) with Geico while letting them monitor my driving via my cell phone. The premium never went down although I had 110 scores in their EasyDrive app (In driving for over 11 years in the US, I never had an accident and never filed any claim car insurers; I always drive defensively and never got any ticket either). What I found was EasyDrive app is always punishing me for bad driving practices like running red light (again, the same experience some has mentioned here with Progressive) in fear of registering a hard-brake event; and worse, slowing down excessively to turn the corners (basically, surprising the cars behind me and risking them bumping into my car) because EasyDrive thinks ONLY IF you go below 15 mph then you are doing the cornering right. I guess these EasyDrive developers (or rule makers) never drove on a real road, and found that usually 20mph is the safe way to go about turning on the right corner.<p>Regardless, I got 15% premium bump in the renewal despite having 110 EasyDrive score (I think Geico raised their premiums by a very high percentage in CA as well; I live in FL and have been using Geico for all the years I&#x27;ve been driving in the US). That pissed me off and I explored other options, and finally got Progressive for $570 for six months. The sacrifice I have to do for this lower rate is to subscribe to their Snapshot program. I used my phone and have been driving for over a month. The relief (good thing) about using Snapshot app is that it doesn&#x27;t monitor your cornering score. However, like some mentioned here, it still promotes bad driving behavior like running yellow&#x2F;red light in fear of hard-brakes. It also seems to be a bit proactive in determining what a hard-brake is (again, I&#x27;m using their phone app) because I registered 2 hard-brakes (the only two hard brakes that I have recorded so far in about 1.5 months of driving) on my grocery trip. I swear I didn&#x27;t do any hard brakes (or maybe at most once) because I know the road pretty well and I usually do grocery runs in early mornings on weekends when there are very few cars on the road.<p>I know I got much cheaper ($570 vs. $710) rate from Progressive now just because I am a new customer. I am pretty sure come next or next, next renewal, they&#x27;ll jack up my premiums like what Geico did, and then I&#x27;ll have to switch to yet another insurer like musical chair game. I wish that the car insurers actually have a more accurate, realistic, non-intrusive tech to monitor the driving habits (e.g., the ones who don&#x27;t use turn signals when turning right&#x2F;left or changing lanes, which really could cause accidents) and ACTUALLY give discounts to drivers like me who are very careful with their driving (plus, my wife and I drove a total of 6050 miles in the last year). This is all to say that the risk-reward distribution system with car insurance companies is still inefficient.