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Injunction issued in case about social media pressure from US Government

387 点作者 cm_silva将近 2 年前

20 条评论

efitz将近 2 年前
This thread baffles me.<p>There are a lot of replies that either didn’t read the article (or even the headline) that seem to be government apologists, or arguing that a particular email isn’t coercive enough, etc.<p>A court found that the government abused its power and infringes on people’s first amendment rights by using its intimidation power to coerce social media to censor free speech of citizens.<p>Freedom of speech is literally the first thing in the Bill of Rights. The government did a bad thing. Why defend them?
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doitLP将近 2 年前
&gt; Doughty said that one Flaherty [White House director of digital strategy] message in February 2021 accused Facebook &quot;of causing &#x27;political violence&#x27; by failing to censor false COVID-19 claims.&quot; Flaherty also wrote in a July 2021 email to Facebook, &quot;Are you guys fucking serious? I want an answer on what happened here and I want it today.&quot;<p>Sure sounds like a relationship where the power only goes one direction and the Flaherty was very comfortable demanding whatever he wanted.
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curiousllama将近 2 年前
I love HN legal threads because engineers have great (logical) legal analysis, but with a terrible (practical) understanding of the law. And every so often a someone with legal training chimes in like &quot;wtf guys&quot;<p>It&#x27;s like watching a good software engineer try to build a circuit board without google: I see how you got there, but damn, that&#x27;s... not gonna work great.<p>Idk the law either, though, so I can&#x27;t judge
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hoten将近 2 年前
Half the comments here are saber-rattling at the title of the article, without the understanding that the title itself is an egregious mischaracterization. Yeah, the court issued a rule, but the layman&#x27;s interpretation of &quot;that means they found actual wrong doing&quot; is not correct. It&#x27;s just a preliminary injunction, apparently based on some flawed misinterpretation of the actual communication that took place [1].<p>[1] <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=36619241">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=36619241</a>
dragonwriter将近 2 年前
Headline is factually inaccurate; its a preliminary injunction which includes consideration of <i>likelihood</i> of success on the merits, not a ruling on the merits.
pakyr将近 2 年前
I wanted to point out several factual issues with this ruling, some of which I mentioned yesterday on another post. For starters, the judge severely misquotes an email:<p>&gt;However, various emails show Plaintiffs are likely to succeed on the merits through evidence that the motivation of the NIAID Defendants was a “take down” of protected free speech. Dr. Francis Collins, in an email to Dr. Fauci told Fauci there needed to be a “quick and devastating take down” of the GBD—the result was exactly that.<p>In reality, the email[0] actually said this:<p>&gt;There needs to be a quick and devastating published takedown of its premises. I don&#x27;t see anything like that online yet - is it underway?<p>Notice how he removed the word &quot;published&quot; from his quote, making it seem like an instruction to a social media company rather than a published rebuttal. He also mischaracterizes a WH aide&#x27;s email to FB, claiming that the aid accused FB &quot;of causing &#x27;political violence&#x27; by failing to censor false COVID-19 claims&quot;, when in actuality he was referring to a WSJ article that detailed actual calls to violence on the platform[1].<p>He also characterizes Twitter&#x27;s removal of an account with the handle &quot;AnthonyFauci_&quot; as government-directed censorship of parody:<p>&gt; NIAID and NIH staff sent several messages to social-media platforms asking them to remove content lampooning or criticizing Dr. Fauci . . . An HHS official then asked Twitter if it could “block” similar parody accounts...<p>But in reality, the contact was initiated by Twitter, who asked the CDC whether the account was real or fake[2]. Why were they confused about this? Because the account wasn&#x27;t a parody at all; its name was &quot;Dr. Anthony Fauci&quot;, its bio was &quot;Director of the National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases #NIAID&quot;, and there was nothing parodic about its tweets[3][4], which purported to be giving out factual info; it was a straight up impersonation.<p>On the subject of Dr. Fauci, there&#x27;s a particularly egregious section where the judge accuses him and other members of NIAID of &#x27;censoring&#x27; the so-called Great Barrington Declaration. To support his claim that Reddit and Google censored the GBD at the government&#x27;s behest, he cites an article[5] that describes how Reddit <i>mods</i> (not Reddit the company!) took down links to the GBD, and complains about the top Google search results for the GBD were all disparaging it, without providing any evidence that either NIAID instructed Google to change the results, or even any evidence that Google purposely changed the results at all. His accusation is that Fauci made public statements &#x27;in collusion&#x27; with another employee<p>&gt;Dr. Fauci testified “it’s possible that” he coordinated with Dr. Collins on his public statements attacking the GBD.<p>Disparaging the GBD, and that Google and these individual mods in turn took independent action against it. So I guess PSAs are censorship?<p>Needless to say, there&#x27;s a lot of issues with this injunction, and from just the small sections I&#x27;ve looked at, it doesn&#x27;t seem like the judge has applied the necessary rigor to justify a nationwide injunction restricting the government from nearly all contact with various companies and nonprofits. I kind of wish Ars Technics had done some of this scrutiny (which really didn&#x27;t take that long) before publishing this article.<p>[0]<a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;i.dailymail.co.uk&#x2F;1s&#x2F;2021&#x2F;12&#x2F;18&#x2F;23&#x2F;51969841-10324873-image-a-3_1639871403560.jpg" rel="nofollow noreferrer">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;i.dailymail.co.uk&#x2F;1s&#x2F;2021&#x2F;12&#x2F;18&#x2F;23&#x2F;51969841-10324873...</a><p>[1]<a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;context?id=36619117">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;context?id=36619117</a><p>[2]<a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;storage.courtlistener.com&#x2F;recap&#x2F;gov.uscourts.lawd.189520&#x2F;gov.uscourts.lawd.189520.207.17.pdf" rel="nofollow noreferrer">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;storage.courtlistener.com&#x2F;recap&#x2F;gov.uscourts.lawd.18...</a><p>[3]<a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;twitter.com&#x2F;merrymanlab&#x2F;status&#x2F;1239321484297998336" rel="nofollow noreferrer">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;twitter.com&#x2F;merrymanlab&#x2F;status&#x2F;1239321484297998336</a><p>[4]<a href="http:&#x2F;&#x2F;web.archive.org&#x2F;web&#x2F;20200313170022&#x2F;https:&#x2F;&#x2F;twitter.com&#x2F;anthonyfauci_&#x2F;status&#x2F;1238507266346831874" rel="nofollow noreferrer">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;web.archive.org&#x2F;web&#x2F;20200313170022&#x2F;https:&#x2F;&#x2F;twitter.co...</a><p>[5]<a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;storage.courtlistener.com&#x2F;recap&#x2F;gov.uscourts.lawd.189520&#x2F;gov.uscourts.lawd.189520.207.12.pdf" rel="nofollow noreferrer">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;storage.courtlistener.com&#x2F;recap&#x2F;gov.uscourts.lawd.18...</a>
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neilv将近 2 年前
I don&#x27;t yet see an ACLU statement on this, though it seems up their alley, and they have a more recent statement on a different case. <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.aclu.org&#x2F;press-releases" rel="nofollow noreferrer">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.aclu.org&#x2F;press-releases</a>.<p>(Incidentally, the Ars Technica favicon looks very similar to the ACLU&#x27;s.)
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traviswingo将近 2 年前
There’s a difference between freedom of speech and education. The government did a bad thing. Anyone should be allowed to speak their piece.<p>We need more people to speak up when those speaking the loudest are wrong, uneducated, and unqualified to speak on the topic they’re preaching.<p>I get the incentive here, but it’s not the governments place to decide what we do and don’t say.<p>Society as a whole needs to be better at calling out the lies with hard facts and data. Because right now, it feels like the people with the most effective voices are taking us in the wrong direction.
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A4ET8a8uTh0将近 2 年前
edit: link to pdf[1]<p>[1]<a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.washingtonpost.com&#x2F;documents&#x2F;75e9f7a3-da4e-45af-8430-6eeba37eaf9f.pdf?itid=lk_interstitial_manual_30" rel="nofollow noreferrer">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.washingtonpost.com&#x2F;documents&#x2F;75e9f7a3-da4e-45af-...</a><p>The two big pieces that appear to be driving this coverage are, if true, the following:<p>&quot;suppressing negative posts about the economy&quot;, &quot;suppressing negative posts about President Biden&quot; and, apparently, parodies<p>There are others, but you could technically claim there is some non-POTUS benefit there so it does not look self-serving.<p>All in all, so far it is pretty damning, but the private-public partnership has been hailed by some as the best thing since sliced bread ( I am absolutely not joking -- it was only a week since I listened to a Canadian official discussing how well it works for their organization ).<p>I am not a Trump supporter and I am glad, but I can&#x27;t help but wonder how much of that is just laying groundwork for 2024 elections.
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1970-01-01将近 2 年前
The free speech misinformation directly led to deaths of citizens. It is no different from any other speech that causes mass panic and confusion. I don&#x27;t understand why this decision was allowed to become detached from reality.
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entriesfull将近 2 年前
Just a reminder that Hitler and Stalin would be so jealous at the amount of power these governments have compared to them:<p>1. Force twitter, fb, blah blah to shadowban anyone that criticizes their lies<p>2. Backdoor any device made by Google, Apple, etc.<p>3. Warrantless wiretap<p>4. Shove out more lies and goto step 1.
hgsgm将近 2 年前
I don&#x27;t understand how Missouri and Louisiana have any standing here.<p>1. They aren&#x27;t the victims.<p>2. The individual posters were censored by Facebook et al, not the government, so even they might not have standing. The social networks obviously have standing, but have they complained?<p>&quot;Facebook likes the President&quot; isn&#x27;t something you should be able to sue the <i>President</i> for.
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viggity将近 2 年前
The Hunter Biden laptop story was <i>actively</i> suppressed on Twitter and Facebook specifically because the FBI told them it was Russian information, <i>despite</i> the fact that the FBI had verified it was legit.<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Twitter_Files" rel="nofollow noreferrer">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Twitter_Files</a>
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crawsome将近 2 年前
Oh, a planted Louisiana judge
Guthur将近 2 年前
The problem i believe we are coming to is that all secular governance eventually replaces the role once taken by church and religious philosophy.<p>It starts to become the arbiter of moral truth and with out any real moral center it can only but fail spectacularly. The second and third political theories of racial and social idealogies more rapidly succumb to this due to a more overt desire to place the state at this moral centre. But I feel liberalism is ultimately doomed to the same fate, just more by accident.<p>No matter how individual everyone seems to think they are they still seem to want some sort of collective morality. Maybe because we mostly need to live some sort of relational existence and in the absence of anything else a collective morality will fill that void, but when that reality is so grounded in human will it can get quite corrupted quite quickly.
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LatteLazy将近 2 年前
&gt;But Judge Terry Doughty, a Trump nominee at US District Court for the Western District of Louisiana, granted the plaintiffs&#x27; request for a preliminary injunction imposing limits...<p>1. Him being a trump nominee makes me suspicious, but also sad that that is the effect and that papers need to list who nominated a judge.<p>2. Granting a preliminary injunction is a long way from winning a case.<p>3. There is pressure and there is pressure. &quot;Social media companies should suppress X&quot; is fine. &quot;if they don&#x27;t I will audit the fuck out of their taxes&quot; is not. The &quot;bully pulpit&quot; has long been used for this purpose and is the president&#x27;s only real power beyond bombing things and vetoing stuff...<p>4. How does this affect executive actions pressuring 101 other companies to do things that are MUCH more questionable (everything from giving the NSA access to private data to bullying companies into censoring movies)?<p>Edit:<p>5. Plenty of Senators have gone on record demanding platforms make changes or face some or other legislative punishment. I wonder how&#x2F;if this affects that?
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RcouF1uZ4gsC将近 2 年前
This goes beyond the President using his “bully pulpit” to urge a social action. From the article:<p>&gt;Several of the messages came from Rob Flaherty, former deputy assistant to the president and director of digital strategy, who criticized Facebook over its handling of COVID misinformation.<p>&gt;Doughty said that one Flaherty message in February 2021 accused Facebook &quot;of causing &#x27;political violence&#x27; by failing to censor false COVID-19 claims.&quot; Flaherty also wrote in a July 2021 email to Facebook, &quot;Are you guys fucking serious? I want an answer on what happened here and I want it today.&quot;<p>&gt;A February 2021 message in which Flaherty asked Twitter to remove a parody account related to Hunter Biden&#x27;s daughter said, &quot;Cannot stress the degree to which this needs to be resolved immediately. Please remove this account immediately.&quot;<p>In my opinion there is a big difference between the President saying in a speech that social media should do something versus what is revealed here.
Clubber将近 2 年前
Good news, now if we can just get rid of all the domestic spying and police overreach, we might resemble a semblance of a free society rather than an analog of it.
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say_it_as_it_is将近 2 年前
These are private platforms. They can censor whatever speech they want. They decide whether to listen to big bad government with an axe over its head or simply get their head cut off, right? I mean, they could have just chosen to be crushed with legal battles from the government, right? Free speech and free will in America, right?
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throwawaaarrgh将近 2 年前
Does this mean I can yell fire in a crowded theater again? Apparently not limiting my free speech is more important than the impact of my disinformation.
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