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Beyond introvert vs. extrovert

219 点作者 vipshek将近 2 年前

31 条评论

michaelteter将近 2 年前
One dimension often missing from these (intro&#x2F;extro-vert) discussions is the matter of what kind of people and what circumstance the interactions involve.<p>Put me in a large group of people I have little in common with or with whom I have no interest in -- but am forced to socialize with -- and I&#x27;m used up in minutes. But with people I can somewhat identify with, and in a situation which offers something for me, and I can go for hours and leave with equal or higher energy than I started.<p>There&#x27;s also the matter of the depth of communication. In larger groups, it&#x27;s difficult to reach any depth since many people may be involved in the discussion (and many people may behave differently or maintain more defensive walls); but 1:1 or in very small groups it&#x27;s easier to develop trust quickly and have some very meaningful conversations.<p>I find many larger group interactions incredibly shallow and boring... just an endless stream of small talk with some attention-seeking, posturing, or peacocking here and there.
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akhayam将近 2 年前
Introvert and extrovert is the most widely misunderstood thing I have seen at work and in personal life. This article also doesn’t do justice to the nuance that introverts find interactions with other “draining” … but it’s not necessary that they suck at it.<p>I feel this way: having led teams of hundreds of people, I know I can have deep, meaningful and long conversations… but I don’t find them a source of joy.<p>I encourage reading this recent opinion post in Washington Post that delves into this nuance with a unique perspective: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.washingtonpost.com&#x2F;opinions&#x2F;2023&#x2F;07&#x2F;12&#x2F;rebecca-makkai-post-pandemic-covid-introvert-extrovert&#x2F;" rel="nofollow noreferrer">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.washingtonpost.com&#x2F;opinions&#x2F;2023&#x2F;07&#x2F;12&#x2F;rebecca-m...</a>
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hx8将近 2 年前
The introvert&#x2F;extrovert spectrum is an aspect of personality that seems to hold true across all cultures. Everywhere we&#x27;ve looked, there are some people that prefer to be by themselves more, and some people that prefer to be with other people more. The distribution of these people follow a standard bell curve. This is probably the single most well supported concept in the scientific literature on the topic of Personality Psychology. I&#x27;m dismayed that the author only made one reference in his blogpost -- a century old quote.<p>It&#x27;s absolutely crazy that this exists across cultures and implies that the disposition is biological in nature. The term has its flaws, and its pop-psychology understanding is limiting. I do think the concept is pointing towards something universal about human psychology.
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norir将近 2 年前
To be fair to Jung, he did not believe that anyone was a pure introvert or extrovert but he needed to use caricatures to illustrate the concepts. He also explicitly warns in Psychological Types not to use his ideas to create a personality classification system.
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dosman33将近 2 年前
The author tries to better understand introversion but focuses on slicing the pie in the wrong dimensions. There are underlying issues that cause people to swing between introversion and extroversion. When those underlying conditions change that can shift a person&#x27;s place on the spectrum.<p>If you are some flavor of neuro-divergent with any awareness of yourself then you realize that you need to moderate some of your own annoying behaviors to fit in better with those you are currently in the presence of. Doing this is draining when you are around &quot;normies&quot;, even if you like these peoples company. It&#x27;s also likely that you only moderate certain behaviors around certain people and again, the degree with which you have to moderate yourself can affect how drained you are over time changing the duration you can withstand others company.<p>When you detect that you are around similar neuro-divergents a person can relax and just be themselves. The lack of drain on a person in this condition can swing an introvert into a full-on extrovert. Anyone who spends time at a makerspace or hackerspace probably understands this. It can be fun watching new people show up who usually are introverts and then they slowly shift their personality since they can safely be themselves and come out of their shells.<p>Again, it&#x27;s the underlying reasons driving a persons introversion or extroversion. When those reasons shift then the personality shifts as well. This is not directly correlated to crowd size, but it&#x27;s a given that the larger the crowd the less safe it is for someone to be themselves if they are neuro-divergent in any dimension. Only people who are &quot;naturally normal&quot; can safely be themselves 100% of the time in large crowds and not be worn down by the experience.
thenoblesunfish将近 2 年前
The article doesn&#x27;t mention it, but for me a good refinement of the idea is that being an introvert or extrovert is about whether social activity is something that costs energy or replenishes it. Not whether you enjoy it - in my own case I love talking and large crowds and so on, when I&#x27;m rested. When I&#x27;m tired, be quiet and stop looking at me.
sublinear将近 2 年前
I don&#x27;t think the dichotomy is a bad rule of thumb to help understand someone, but it&#x27;s certainly not their identity.<p>I&#x27;ve come to find that it&#x27;s down to the person&#x27;s experience with and resulting preference for crowds and individuals. It&#x27;s nurture, not nature.<p>I used to be very introverted until I started living on my own as an adult and had shit to do and wanted things in life. I&#x27;ve also seen extroverts that mellowed out with age.<p>There&#x27;s no mystery. Raise your kids and yourself accordingly.
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msoad将近 2 年前
I wonder if it&#x27;s even worth trying to define a person&#x27;s personality? I&#x27;ve been following this research for a while now. Almost all the studies I&#x27;ve seen have substantial flaws in their scientific methodology, such as small sample sizes and selection bias, among other issues. Don&#x27;t even get me started on the replication crisis in this field.<p>Regarding theories like Jung&#x27;s introversion and extraversion or the subsequent personality models like the MBTI and the Big Five, while they have been widely used and studied, there&#x27;s ongoing debate about their reliability and validity. There&#x27;s substantial evidence for the general reliability of the Big Five, but it, too, has faced criticism.
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indus将近 2 年前
Great writeup and love your articulation of ambiverts.<p>I am an introvert--but now trained my mind to be a normal person and not fear people around me. I forced it earlier. If you meet me, you&#x27;ll not find me an introvert, anymore. 10 years ago, people would politely ask me to talk or share.<p>It has been years of journey achieving that change.<p>I don&#x27;t feel the introvert&#x2F;extrovert quagmire anymore. However, if I&#x27;m in public meetings--presenting, chatting for more than a few hours--then I need to come back and take a hot shower--and fade away the people and conversations.<p>My wife calls that shower: &quot;Removing the theater from the head.&quot;
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matricaria将近 2 年前
I thought about this a lot too after being asked which one I was. My answer was neither and the other person labeled me as extrovert.<p>I think many introverts become more introverted as they label themself in that way. Often they feel uncomfortable in large and small groups, but with the label they have an excuse to avoid those situations as much as possible. Kind of like a self-fulfilling prophecy.
DerekBickerton将近 2 年前
&gt; Introverts, extroverts... ambiverts??<p>I consider myself an ambivert, swinging between introvert and extrovert all the time. The thing is: you are going to have to attend social events often against your will if you&#x27;re introvert-leaning (weddings, funerals, christenings, bar mitzvahs, etc).<p>What I&#x27;ve learned over the years is the more you know how the world works, the less you want to be engaged in it (Big Pharma, Big Tech, Big Military, Big Anything). It&#x27;s all so tiresome.<p>One of the things all mature adults need to learn ASAP is how to retain good friendships over time. It&#x27;s a whole art-form. Anyone that can give me a &#x27;belly laugh&#x27; and I can retain friendship over more than five years is worth keeping.
thomasfromcdnjs将近 2 年前
I&#x27;m not convinced that ones identity can be described as an introvert or extrovert. Regardless of what I read or what people I trust tell me.<p>I think you can _feel_ &quot;introverted&quot; or &quot;extroverted&quot; sometimes.<p>Not a topic that overly bother me, I personally find it hilarious watching people describe themselves with so much confidence. As if they know how the human mind works, and are so capable at it they can perform some meta-analysis looking from outside in.<p>(If you haven&#x27;t figured I also think Meyers, Big Five etc etc is all garbage too, &quot;I&#x27;m cynical&quot; &lt;&#x2F;joke&gt;)
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munificent将近 2 年前
I very much agree with the author&#x27;s take that introvert&#x2F;extrovert is a stupidly reductionist categorization for human social behavior. I like their approach to looking at different kinds of social interaction, but I think just focusing on group size misses other important differences:<p>* How close or long-term the relationship with the others is. Do you like meeting new people or prefer the company of old friends and family? Do you want to be able to let down your guard and be your true self without worry, or do the higher stakes of the long term consequences stress you out?<p>* How balanced the power is and where you are on it. Do you like rousing a team of minions, give and take with peers, or being inspired to follow a visionary?<p>* How cooperative versus adversarial the relationship is. Do you want to make sacrifices for the greater good so that we all win, or do you want to defeat your opponent? Do you want to give people the benefit of the doubt and show compassion, or protect others from dangerous bad actors?<p>Also, not limited to social interaction, I think many people often fail to distinguish:<p>1. I don&#x27;t like this thing.<p>2. I feel anxiety about this thing.<p>If social interaction stresses you out but you&#x27;re always glad after you did it, you&#x27;re not an introvert, you have social anxiety. If you don&#x27;t want to go to a social function, but you go anyway and it goes perfectly fine, but then afterwards you still wish you hadn&#x27;t gone, that&#x27;s more likely to be actual introversion.<p>I strongly suspect that most self-described introverts (including myself for many years) are actually people with a normal or even high level of extroversion but high social anxiety.
coldtea将近 2 年前
&gt;<i>This entire introvert&#x2F;extrovert&#x2F;ambivert thing just amounts to &quot;most people like to be alone sometimes and around people some other times&quot;?? What&#x27;s the point?</i><p>The point is that we shouldn&#x27;t be particularly concerned about that group, and it&#x27;s the people in the extremes that might need special accomondations.<p>Breaking it down too much can muddle the distinctions, as opposed to illuminating them.
jmyeet将近 2 年前
I see a fundamental misunderstanding, even among so-called profesionals, about what introvert vs extrovert actually means. I am an introvert but struggled with the traditional definitions. This article builds on and complicates these incorrect foundations.<p>Here&#x27;s the simplest explanation that I have found: social interactions cost introverts energy. Extroverts gain energy from social interactions. When I heard this, it was liike a light bulb going off. It&#x27;s not that I, as an introvert, didn&#x27;t like people or exclusively preferred being alone. It&#x27;s that too much social interaction is, quite literally, exhausting. That doesn&#x27;t mean it&#x27;s avoided at all cost or that social interaction can&#x27;t be or isn&#x27;t enjoyed.<p>If you&#x27;ve met a true extrovert you&#x27;ll know this. For such people, social interaction really can resemble a high. It can be something they crave and they can crash from.<p>Larger groups are just more social interaction. It can be easier with known people (eg family gatherings) because the processing cost of the social interactions is less and there are fewer unknowns.
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nuancebydefault将近 2 年前
Usually I feel very comfortable with 1-on-1s, but a lot of times at a point I start either to talk too much about myself, or start asking too many questions and people start to feel a bit uncomfortable or overwhelmed, while I just want to interact and learn. Anybody else recognizes this?
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tigerlily将近 2 年前
Introverted... introverted what? Are you introverted thinking, introverted feeling, introverted sensing?<p>Likewise extroverted what? Extroverted thinking means thinking out loud in the crowd. My wife does this even at home. I have to be careful as an introverted thinker, I can&#x27;t hear myself think when she&#x27;s thinking out loud, so I defer deep thoughts for work time and stay present. That can be draining after a while and so I take it out on the cryptic crossword.<p>To me introvert&#x2F;extrovert is dimensionless unless you use it in conjunction with some faculty. On their own these terms are quite meaningless.
PaulHoule将近 2 年前
People have different reasons for being reclusive. The social phobic, the agorapohbic, the autist, and the common but complete obscure schizotype (maybe you if you are self-diagnosed &quot;autistic&quot;) are all examples.
wouldbecouldbe将近 2 年前
I didn’t know Jung came up with this concept.<p>The power of ideas is amazing. Hardly anyone knows Jung, but everyone knows introvert vs extravert.<p>The same goes for Freud, more have heard of him but still mostly under educated people, but everyone knows what is meant by subconscious, which was a concept he came up with.<p>Even though they both had many weird, good and bad ideas. Their reputation as great thinkers iOS valid just by these 2 contributions they made to human thoughts.<p>Ages from now kids will speak of their subconscious and being an introvert while Jung &amp; Freuds names will only be known to a few niche historians.
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revskill将近 2 年前
From my experience, i don&#x27;t care if i&#x27;m introvert or extrovert.<p>WHat i do really care, is, how much i understand myself. What do i really need ? How do i say no ? How do i stay motivated ?....<p>Those are real matters.
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raverbashing将近 2 年前
&gt; the easy way out of this critique is to present the model as a spectrum—there&#x27;s a continuous line from introverts on one end to extroverts on the other, and people can belong anywhere along this spectrum<p>Yes, this applies to most things<p>Yes, taking MTBI to be binomial into every dimension and every person fitting neatly into any of the X boxes is stupid, thinking about a 4 variable measure which is centered at zero (that is, resting in the middle between each letter) is a more realistic outtake
alex-moon将近 2 年前
&quot;I actually do enjoy crowds and &#x27;enthusiastic get-togethers.&#x27; Yes, I feel drained by them eventually&quot; - in other words, the author is an introvert.
Geee将近 2 年前
I find it draining to be around idiots and listening to their boring life stories. I guess that makes me an introvert.
tidbittyz将近 2 年前
There are 5 labels I am aware of since I have been on this earth.<p>extrovert - dominant outside introvert - dominant inside ambivert - switches outside and inside inextrovert - dominant introvert and in certain situations extrovert exintrovert - dominant extrovert and in certain situations introvert<p>Anyone aware of any other categories we can put people into?
k__将近 2 年前
My theory: Most people aren&#x27;t introverts, they&#x27;re just lacking the skills to socialize with strangers.
carabiner将近 2 年前
Can we explain why everyone calls themselves an extroverted introvert today?
JumpinJack_Cash将近 2 年前
Could be that introverts have one or both of the following characteristics:<p>1) They don&#x27;t like politics as a mean to reach one&#x27;s goals. Maybe for moral reasons or because they consider it cheating or because they deem it &#x27;not close enough to the action&#x27;.<p>2) Social time spent with other people is like any other activity, maybe introverts need or want more time to feel satisfied, much like some people are satisfied riding a jetski while others need to be able to do tricks and acrobatics in order to be happy about the whole experience. Maybe introverts hold out in order to reach a higher level of experience?
elliottinvent将近 2 年前
It was recently explained to me:<p>Introverts charge their battery in solitude and discharge it socialising. Extroverts the opposite.
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gardenhedge将近 2 年前
The older I get the more I realize it&#x27;s being around people I don&#x27;t like that I feel draining.
jwmoz将近 2 年前
A really nice post, thanks.
rqtwteye将近 2 年前
I never understand why people (especially in the US) have a desire to split everything into two opposing sides. Liberal&#x2F;conservative, introvert&#x2F;extrovert and many others. I think it&#x27;s pretty obvious that most (all?) people are on a spectrum of many dimensions and can&#x27;t be categorized that easily. These labels can give useful hints but there is way more detail to look at.
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