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The OpenTF Manifesto

633 点作者 CathalMullan将近 2 年前

54 条评论

dbingham将近 2 年前
I appreciate the letter and trying to work with Hashicorp -- I used to have a ton of respect for Hashicorp. But honestly... at this point...<p>...just fork it into a foundation. Don&#x27;t wait for Hashicorp&#x27;s response. I get wanting to have the appearance of working with Hashicorp, but we&#x27;ve been shown again, and again, and again, and a-fucking-gain that private corporations <i>cannot</i> be trusted to maintain public goods. Only community governed non-profit foundations can do that.<p>Private corporations will put the bottom line first <i>every single time</i>. And in the case of investor funded enterprises, the bottom line is never ending exponential growth or bust.
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bcantrill将近 2 年前
We at Oxide were honored to be asked to add our name to OpenTF Manifesto. Our statement:<p><i>At Oxide, our vision has been that on-premises infrastructure is deserving of a system consisting of both hardware and software, at once integrated and open. Ensuring Terraform users can easily deploy to Oxide has been essential for realizing this vision: we want customers of an Oxide rack to be able to use the tools that they know and love! And while HashiCorp&#x27;s move to the BSL does not immediately affect Oxide (our Terraform provider is and remains MPLv2), we recognize that the ambiguity in both the license and HashCorp&#x27;s language has created widespread concern that gives customers pause. We support the OpenTF efforts to assure an open source Terraform. It is our preference to see an MPLv2 Terraform as led by HashiCorp, and we join the call from the OpenTF signatories for HashiCorp to renew its social contract with the community by reverting the change of Terraform to the BSL. That said, we also agree with OpenTF&#x27;s fallback position: a BSL-licensed Terraform is not in fact tenable; if Terraform must be forked into a foundation to assure its future, we will support these efforts. Open source comprises the foundation of the modern Internet, and is bigger than one company: it is the power of us all together to determine our fate. But we cannot take that foundation for granted -- and we must be willing to work to exercise that power to assure an open source future.</i><p>Thank you to the consortium here that is coming together to guide Hashi to see the wisdom in an open source Terraform!
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bloopernova将近 2 年前
If any Hashicorp people are reading, can you please tell your middle and senior management that this decision has deeply soured my entire DevOps cohort on continuing to use Terraform in the future.<p>We&#x27;re already exploring alternatives. Future client projects may not use Terraform at all.<p>Languages and frameworks <i>must remain open</i> or they will wither and die.
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aftbit将近 2 年前
&gt;Imagine if the creators of Linux [] suddenly switched to a non-open-source license that only permitted non-competitive usage.<p>Linux cannot even successfully switch from GPL2 to GPL3 because of the sheer number of contributors and the fact that not all of them have transferred their copyright ownership to any given organization. This patchwork of different copyright owners has historically been seen as a potential weakness for Linux, but it seems like perhaps license inflexibility is a strength for open source.
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ovuruska超过 1 年前
Hey folks, so Terraform did a thing. They changed their license type, and a lot of people aren&#x27;t too happy about it. There&#x27;s this OpenTF Manifesto now where people are speaking up about wanting Terraform to be truly open-source again. Some are even thinking of making a new version if HashiCorp doesn&#x27;t switch back. Just a heads up for anyone using or thinking of using Terraform
sausagefeet将近 2 年前
We, Terrateam, do not believe we violate the new license but we support Terraform being open due to how important it is to the ecosystem. Unlike Vault or Waypoint, Terraform is closer to a language compiler like Go or Java and benefits from a robust community that can build on top of a stable ecosystem. As such, we have announced our support of the OpenTF Manifest[0]<p>[0] <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;terrateam.io&#x2F;blog&#x2F;opentf-pledge" rel="nofollow noreferrer">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;terrateam.io&#x2F;blog&#x2F;opentf-pledge</a>
new23d将近 2 年前
As an end-user, not competing with HashiCorp, this change doesn&#x27;t worry me. According to their FAQ [1]:<p><pre><code> 10. What are the usage limitations for HashiCorp’s products under BSL? All non-production uses are permitted. All production uses are allowed other than hosting or embedding the software in an offering competitive with HashiCorp commercial products, hosted or self-managed. 24. Can I host the HashiCorp products as a service internal to my organization? Yes. The terms of the BSL allow for all non-production and production usage, except for providing competitive offerings to third parties that embed or host our software. Hosting the products for your internal use of your organization is permitted. </code></pre> [1] <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.hashicorp.com&#x2F;license-faq" rel="nofollow noreferrer">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.hashicorp.com&#x2F;license-faq</a>
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marcinzm将近 2 年前
As I see it Hashicorp has failed to create a viable business model in an environment where there isn&#x27;t unlimited perpetual VC money. Now they&#x27;re at the stage of giving up and simply trying to shake down those who have managed to make better business models.<p>It&#x27;s usually not a good idea to be near a company flailing like this since who knows what their next rent seeking approach will be. A company with nothing to lose is a dangerous partner to have.
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brikis98将近 2 年前
Gruntwork here. You can find our statement here: The Future of Terraform must be open—our plan and pledge to keep Terraform open source. <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;blog.gruntwork.io&#x2F;the-future-of-terraform-must-be-open-ab0b9ba65bca" rel="nofollow noreferrer">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;blog.gruntwork.io&#x2F;the-future-of-terraform-must-be-op...</a><p>If you want to help us keep Terraform open source, please show your support at <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;opentf.org&#x2F;" rel="nofollow noreferrer">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;opentf.org&#x2F;</a>!
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Brian_K_White将近 2 年前
We need a new word for this.<p>We say OpenTF is (or will be) a fork, and forks are bad, nuclear option, etc, but really, Hashicorp are the ones who made a breaking change, and the &quot;fork&quot; merely maintains that which already was, but for reasons, are not allowed to continue using their own name.<p>We need for the shortest sound-bite 3-word sentence to the non-technical to somehow use terminology that says that the entity that caused the problem is the one who did some action.<p>OpenTF did not (or is not prepareing to) fork this project, Hashicorp did.<p>If it was me and I wasn&#x27;t legally prevented by something actually binding in writing with signatures, I&#x27;d even keep using the original name and duke that out.
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jsiepkes将近 2 年前
Part of me hopes a fork comes out of this. I mean maybe features like this PR[1] for local state file encryption can then finally get merged.<p>[1] <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;github.com&#x2F;hashicorp&#x2F;terraform&#x2F;pull&#x2F;28603">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;github.com&#x2F;hashicorp&#x2F;terraform&#x2F;pull&#x2F;28603</a>
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lijok将近 2 年前
I love it. The list of &quot;pledged companies&quot; is literally just a list of all the offenders that Hashicorp are trying to shake off.
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time0ut将近 2 年前
As a long time Gruntwork customer, contributor, and fan, it is really nice to see them stepping up as thought leaders here. They run a great open source community already. Our DevOps team has been buzzing all day with what we are going to do. For now, we are staying pinned to the last open source version of Terraform and will likely follow Gruntwork&#x27;s lead when the time comes.
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igorzij将近 2 年前
Digger here<p>Our statement: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;medium.com&#x2F;@DiggerHQ&#x2F;diggers-statement-on-the-hashicorp-license-change-to-bsl-983bf184e7d7" rel="nofollow noreferrer">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;medium.com&#x2F;@DiggerHQ&#x2F;diggers-statement-on-the-hashic...</a>
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onedr0p将近 2 年前
There is zero chance of Hashicorp donating Terraform to an open source foundation. If there was they would have never even considered this change in license. Honestly it&#x27;s not a bad thing, maybe the maintainers of the Terraform fork will actually listen to feedback from the community of people who use it instead of ignoring them.
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cube2222将近 2 年前
Also, update from Spacelift, we believe that we are not in violation of the new license, you can find more details in our today&#x27;s announcement[0].<p>We nevertheless support this initiative, though, as written in the article itself.<p>[0]: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;spacelift.io&#x2F;blog&#x2F;spacelift-latest-statement-on-hashicorp-bsl" rel="nofollow noreferrer">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;spacelift.io&#x2F;blog&#x2F;spacelift-latest-statement-on-hash...</a><p>Disclaimer: Work at Spacelift
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cattown将近 2 年前
I like Terraform and will continue to use it. I&#x27;m just an end user that isn&#x27;t involved in building other product offerings on it or a user of other derivative products.<p>Even though this really doesn&#x27;t affect my use case it does feel like kind of a dirty bait and switch. I do hope for a future where there&#x27;s a version (and Terraform provider module versions) that are actively maintained under a true open source license. I&#x27;ll favor using those over the official BSL version as much as possible.<p>I guess it&#x27;s the CLA that all of the contributors signed that allows this to happen? I wonder if there&#x27;s a way for open source licenses to address this, and disallow the use of CLAs, or require some CLA clause that doesn&#x27;t allow sudden switches to non-permissive licenses?
PeterZaitsev将近 2 年前
One thing I particularly hate about license change is lack of notice - If you operate in good faith you probably would want to give time to community to make arrangement, whenever it is negotiating agreement with you or looking for alternatives. Lack of notice this means everyone who embedded Terraform put their customers at risk immediately as in case any discovered CVEs they will not be able to ship security fixes to their customers.
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cyberax将近 2 年前
Terraform core is kinda crappy. The language is awful, and the module infrastructure sucks.<p>I would support (with my own money) a fork that would re-use the Terraform providers, and reimplement the language as something not so insane.
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ms4720将近 2 年前
I think the problem is that if hashicorp thinks you are a competitor you and your clients now have legal&#x2F;operational issues. Ie you are now a competitor because we are releasing a product just like yours, here is a letter from a lawyer telling you to stop using terraform.
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Coryodaniel将近 2 年前
Massdriver was designed to be infrastructure-as-code agnostic from day 1.<p>Our goal has been to help companies get great operations, compliance, and security posture from day one.<p>While Massdriver is not a competitor to HashiCorp, the license language is extremely vague and leaves any infrastructure company running containers for their customers wondering if HashiCorp will consider them a competitor tomorrow.<p>We are proud to be providing development and community support for this initiative.<p>Read our statement here: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;blog.massdriver.cloud&#x2F;posts&#x2F;2023-08-14-opentf-commitment&#x2F;">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;blog.massdriver.cloud&#x2F;posts&#x2F;2023-08-14-opentf-commit...</a>
fidotron将近 2 年前
The weaponisation of open source by the cloud vendors combined with devops culture encouraging only paying for operations and commoditising development is going to lead to constant pointless migrations of this kind (such as Docker&#x2F;podman etc.)<p>Devops people need to find a viable way to reward the developers of the tools they make a living from operating. Failing that they will wake up finding no one is willing to make them or that those that do have an ulterior motive.
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mousetree将近 2 年前
As a regular end-user of Terraform, what difference does BSL vs MPL make to me? From reading this article it seems not very much? Perhaps I&#x27;m misreading this.
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kemitchell将近 2 年前
&gt; When any company releases their tool as open source, the contract with the community is always the same...<p>There is no contract. Try to enforce it. Even non-binding <i>expectations</i> differ widely among projects.<p>&gt; We believe that HashiCorp should earn a return by leveraging its unique position in the Terraform ecosystem to build a better product, not by outright preventing others from competing in the first place.<p>Nobody at Hashi cares how their competitors think they should make money. As for competition, Hashi just blew the whistle for an all-comers product pace-race against its formerly free-riding rivals. The old code remains MPLv2-licesed. That&#x27;s the starting line. Their new BSL automatically releases new code under MPLv2 four years after it&#x27;s published. That&#x27;s Hashi committing to a minimum pace. They clearly foresaw a fork.<p>They are betting their maintenance commitment, expertise, new development pace, and existing book of business will make their new, less than four-year-old versions the versions users want, despite the license. Hashi&#x27;s announcement and FAQs try to minimize perceived cost of the license change by emphasizing they intend no change for users, customers, and contributors, as distinct from product-service competitors. This new fork announcement tries to maximize uncertainty about the license and throw shade on future development prospects. It&#x27;s all in the game.<p>Customers can watch the runners run. Eat popcorn.<p>I think it&#x27;s highly unlikely Hashi&#x27;s rivals will make enough marketing pain on this to force them to reverse the change. The database companies made far bigger moves, with more complexity and fewer marketing lessons learned. They held out. So the war&#x27;s on the product dev and product marketing fronts.<p>The real test will come in January, after Hashi says it will stop backporting fixes to the current MPL release. At that point, the rivals are under their own power only. Will any MPL-today-licensed fork be so competitive with Hashi&#x27;s version at that point that customers bet on it over Hashi&#x27;s long-term? It will have to bear its own development and maintenance costs for whatever differentiates it.<p>I&#x27;m familiar with the products, but not an active user. My main question is whether there&#x27;s substantial new development still to be done on the most popular projects, or whether it&#x27;s really a maintenance war. I&#x27;d be looking for whether Hashi&#x27;s new versions break compat, either tactically or as a consequence of new development.
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yabones将近 2 年前
Turns out the proliferation of open source was never because of &quot;collaboration&quot; or &quot;community&quot;, it was actually just a result of zero interest rates and &quot;growth&quot;.
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miah_将近 2 年前
I think this is awesome. I highly doubt Hashicorp will do the right thing, so I look forward to the new OpenTF foundation and their fork of Terraform.
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datadrivenangel将近 2 年前
Hopefully the schism this causes will result in more competition and improvement in the infrastructure as code space.
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mkl95将近 2 年前
&gt; This is similar to how Linux and Kubernetes are managed by foundations (the Linux Foundation and the Cloud Native Computing Foundation, respectively), which are run by multiple companies, ensuring the tool stays truly open source and neutral, and not at the whim of any one company.<p>&gt; We strongly prefer joining an existing reputable foundation over creating a new one. Stay tuned for additional details in the coming week.<p>Joining an existing foundation sounds like the right move to me. Many organizations need this fork to take off very quickly, since they are facing legal uncertainty. Make sure it is clear how to support the project, and those organizations will be happy to do so.
jen20将近 2 年前
How exactly do the companies involved plan to fund a fork? It would require at minimum 3-4 full time engineers, and no one is going to do that work for free.<p>It’s also telling that this manifesto blithely suggests TF could become Apache 2, which is wholly untrue.
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thrwawayhashi将近 2 年前
From Hasicorp’s perspective this license change is less about Terraform and mostly about Vault. Terraform Enterprise isn’t very successful. Their cloud offering for Terraform isn’t competitive with a basic GitHub actions workflow. They’ve learned this the hard way.<p>With Vault they’ve just recently launched their new cloud secrets service. Most of their revenue comes from Vault. Nearly all of their future revenue growth is vault. Any competitor could relatively easily provide the same service with vault FOSS today. Vault is feature complete. The only moat they have is their license.<p>Best for the ecosystem if both Vault and Terraform are maintained by a foundation. Not best for Hashicorp, but best for the industry for sure.
theowawayhs将近 2 年前
Once a prolific commentator, Mitchell Hashimoto has gone quiet here for over 50 days now.<p>His GitHub activity seem to indicate he is now focused on the Zig programming language.
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xyzzy_plugh将近 2 年前
This was inevitable after Hashicorp&#x27;s move.<p>After thinking about it for a few days, I think Hashicorp&#x27;s move is actually net great for everyone. The products that matter will be forked and maintained in the open. Hashicorp would choose wisely to merge mature forks back into their product, if they can, and now you have a pretty standard model of up selling enterprise features on an open product that&#x27;s developed in the actual open. It frees Hashicorp up to focus on the enterprise, which they have already been doing, but they&#x27;ve been neglecting their OSS, like Terraform (what the actual fuck is going on with the development of Terraform over the last two years?)<p>This is great. I&#x27;m really looking forward to using freed forks that pop up in the months ahead.<p>This is Hashicorp&#x27;s sink or swim moment.<p>If you asked me when they announced the license change, I&#x27;d say bet the horse on Pulumi and move on. But now I actually think this could really rejuvenate the TF ecosystem.
notswayze将近 2 年前
What&#x27;s the cleanest way to pledge support as an individual, but without pledging as part of my company?
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WaterSponge将近 2 年前
What if Microsoft buys it for there devtools business like NPM, Github, VSCode + Terraform,Consul,Vault.. all just more gateways into azure but like all the others they own allow you to use it how you want opensource.
fuddle将近 2 年前
This reminds me of how the MapLibre project was created after Mapbox changed their license. <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;wptavern.com&#x2F;maplibre-launches-as-official-open-source-successor-to-mapbox-gl-js" rel="nofollow noreferrer">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;wptavern.com&#x2F;maplibre-launches-as-official-open-sour...</a> <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;maplibre.org&#x2F;" rel="nofollow noreferrer">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;maplibre.org&#x2F;</a>
flash0777将近 2 年前
Long time YC reader here. Created an account just to make this comment: maybe this idea of a fork is a good thing. We maybe able to potentially explore developing HCL further. Develop further abstractions that are provider agnostic. At least for most common resources like instances, security groups etc.<p>Obviously there would be tradeoffs involved. But if we can cover the 80% situation, that would be a good start.
ohad1282将近 2 年前
Ohad here, co-founder of env0, one of the main supporters of opentf<p>I think Gruntwork&#x27;s blog explains this the best - <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;blog.gruntwork.io&#x2F;the-future-of-terraform-must-be-open-ab0b9ba65bca" rel="nofollow noreferrer">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;blog.gruntwork.io&#x2F;the-future-of-terraform-must-be-op...</a>
losvedir将近 2 年前
I don&#x27;t get the argument that there&#x27;s legal ambiguity. It was Mozilla licensed through some version; as long as you use that version it will be fine, right?<p>Obviously, there&#x27;s the argument that Hashicorp might sue you even for that, but it feels like the <i>reductio ad absurdum</i> that any company can sue you for anything, and not remotely plausible.
garfieldnate将近 2 年前
I&#x27;m looking forward to seeing the creation of the foundation. Honestly, given the huge number of people that use it, the open source activity, etc., closing the source is a huge deal and Hashicorp could not really expect anything other than a big response to keep the open source version going. Am I wrong here?
jhoelzel将近 2 年前
While this wont affect 99.9% of us, I am very happy what this will mean for further kubernetes adoption.<p>VMS are a concept of older times and should be replaced by containers. YES; there is still use for VM&#x27;s but everyone and their mother migration to k8s will mean wonders for portability of applications and more.
sberens将近 2 年前
I created a prediction market to estimate the success of this manifesto (along with other efforts): <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;manifold.markets&#x2F;SimonBerens&#x2F;will-terraform-be-mpl-licensed-by-e" rel="nofollow noreferrer">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;manifold.markets&#x2F;SimonBerens&#x2F;will-terraform-be-mpl-l...</a>
bastardoperator将近 2 年前
Ask Roblox employees how they feel about Hashicorp products. Terraform is probably the most solid product they have seconded by vault, but after hearing the consul and nomad horror stories, I don&#x27;t think I could take their products seriously ever, not when kubernetes is setting right there.
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Halan将近 2 年前
Thanks Hashicorp for providing me with an excuse to convince my management to give Crossplane a try
PeterZaitsev将近 2 年前
Interesting to see Twitter (X) poll was right on this one <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;twitter.com&#x2F;PeterZaitsev&#x2F;status&#x2F;1691173820122443776" rel="nofollow noreferrer">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;twitter.com&#x2F;PeterZaitsev&#x2F;status&#x2F;1691173820122443776</a>
jupp0r将近 2 年前
iojs comes to mind. This is the beauty of open source in action.<p>Long living forks and fragmentation sucks, but now HashiCorp has to react to this and provide compelling benefits if they don&#x27;t want to loose the whole project alltogether.
punnerud将近 2 年前
Isn’t all agreements to limit competition illegal in EU&#x2F;Europe? Even collaboration between competitors agains a 3. part is illegal.<p>The rest of the agreement is still valid, just the completion part is nullified
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ragona将近 2 年前
The CDK and Pulumi teams must be truly delighted by this move.
Sparkyte将近 2 年前
Not sure what sort of thought process went into Hashicorp thinking that going BSL was a good idea. I am exagerating but almost all of their code is community driven. So the biggest issue is that this will likely kill all of their profit.<p>Perhaps if they went down the certification strategy it would&#x27;ve been a safer gamble. Certified Hashicorp Terraform Practioner. 650 a cert, probably would&#x27;ve saved their arse.
thdn将近 2 年前
Any reliable alternative at the moment?
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luckystrike99将近 2 年前
opentf.org - the &quot;tf&quot; part<p>Isn&#x27;t &quot;Terraform&quot; a copyrighted &#x2F; owned word by Hashicorp? Is it somehow itself part of the MPL - the name itself?<p>Would then whatever opentf.org would become need a new &quot;tf&quot; name?<p>Just don&#x27;t know the ins and outs on that.
stavrus将近 2 年前
I don&#x27;t think the license change is unwarranted. At a previous employer we used Terraform but the pricing on the cloud&#x2F;enterprise offerings was prohibitive enough that we instead had a dev create simple wrapper scripts in our CI&#x2F;CD system to run the deploy jobs. Significantly cheaper, but I spent years pushing for us to eventually move to the paid offerings as the developer experience was significantly lacking (and to support Hashicorp), up until I left the company. I think they&#x27;re still using those wrappers today despite how awful they were to use.<p>There was definitely room for improvement around using Terraform to do actual deployments. From better UX around doing PR&#x27;s -- showing not only the commit diff but the output of a &quot;tf plan&quot; as well to see what it might actually do -- to actually running the deployments on isolated build machines that could hold the sensitive cloud API keys and provide a deployment audit trail, these were all features that teams absolutely needed to use Terraform sanely. As a solo developer you don&#x27;t really need those features, but if you&#x27;re on a team you definitely did, and were almost certainly willing to pay for it. Hashicorp recognized that need and created the cloud&#x2F;enterprise offerings to provide that.<p>At some point the thought even crossed my mind of creating some open-source tool that could provide a nice enough web interface for dealing with Terraform for teams, building on what we had and providing the features I listed above, but the main reason I didn&#x27;t was because it would be biting the hand that feeds. Such a tool would take away people&#x27;s incentives from using Hashicorp&#x27;s paid offerings and ultimately reduce their investment in Terraform and their other fantastic tools, and in my opinion, be disrespecting the tremendous work Hashicorp had done up to that point. I&#x27;ve been a user of their stuff since they only had Vagrant, and of course have loved them seeing them succeed.<p>It seems others, however, had different opinions and saw a business opportunity thanks to the permissive licensing and the high costs of Hashicorp&#x27;s paid offerings. Plenty of money to be made from making it easy to use TF in teams, especially when you&#x27;re not obligated to contribute back or maintain the underlying software [1]. Any time I saw a &quot;Launch&#x2F;Show HN&quot; post from a company that was offering such TF wrapper web interfaces, I kept being surprised that Hashicorp hadn&#x27;t yet clamped down on preventing lower-cost offerings of their paid services. It was only a matter of time.<p>[1]: I realize this reads as overly harsh to some of these companies, especially as some of them are in here replying and pledging to give back, so let me try to explain my reasoning here. When I use a product, I like it when the source is available from me to learn from and understand how it works [2] and to contribute back to for needed features or bugfixes [3].<p>When a company makes a product open-source, that&#x27;s great! But if that product is the core of that company&#x27;s business model [4], and another company starts competing with that company using the same open-source product, then I see a problem down the line. While you can make the argument that the competition is good and motivates the two companies to compete on the value they bring to their customers, which is a net-benefit to the open-source ecosystem as a whole as the open-source product is improved, it eventually turns into a race to the bottom. Pricing will be used as a core differentiator, reducing the overall R&amp;D spending on the open-source product because ultimately the two companies have to maintain non-R&amp;D staff like sales, finance, and support. If the Total Addressable Market is fixed (obviously not, but work with me), then that&#x27;s two or more companies with the same fixed non-R&amp;D costs diverting revenue that could be spent instead on improving the open-source product. Sure, the reality is that a lot of that revenue isn&#x27;t going back to the open-source product, as a lot of people are complaining about in the comments, but that diversion is probably going to happen anyway whether there&#x27;s 1 company or 20, so I&#x27;d accept it as a cost of doing business.<p>If instead the competition were on providing a better but different open-source product in the same space (e.g. Pulumi), rather than working off the same base, that would be a different story. But if developers keep seeing businesses take open-source projects and directly compete with their creators, then I think we&#x27;re going to see a net harm to the open-source community as it creates a sort of chilling effect as it&#x27;ll demotivate them from going the open-source route so that they can find a viable way to sustain their efforts. I think licenses such as the BSL and SSPL are valid enough compromises, considering that even mentioning the AGPL inside of a lot of companies seems to be like someone saying Voldemort&#x27;s name. We can&#x27;t rely on large corporations sponsoring open-source projects, either with money or developer time, if we want them to succeed.<p>We grant inventors 20 years of exclusive-use on an invention, provided they explain how to reproduce it through the publishing of a patent. What&#x27;s the difference between that and the BSL? I see a lot of complaints about bait-and-switches, but I don&#x27;t really see the issue. If you contributed to the project under the old license, it&#x27;s still available under the old license! You just don&#x27;t get any of the new changes starting from the license change. If you decided to use Terraform in a non-competing way [5] solely because of the old license, and are concerned about the new one, then you have to recognize that Hashicorp is now another addition to a long-line of &quot;open-core&quot; companies trying to deal with the reality that companies will make money any way they legally can. This is where the industry is currently headed, and whatever replacement you find will probably be next.<p>If you believe different, then make an open-source offering, and don&#x27;t just make a public statement saying it&#x27;ll be open-source forever. Public statements are great and all, up until there&#x27;s doubts about meeting payroll. Find a way to make the statement legally binding and then we&#x27;re talking. Which is I guess why there&#x27;s so much consternation, since the way to do it is through the license, but the OSI doesn&#x27;t recognize any of these other licenses as &quot;open-source&quot; and the AGPL is a non-starter at most companies.<p>[2]: Reading the source code for libraries I use has been incredibly valuable in my understanding of how to use the libraries properly, much better than any documentation could. And of course, makes me a better programmer in the process.<p>[3]: At one point, Terraform was missing a feature that I badly needed. With the source available, I could easily get a new version of it running locally with that feature to unblock me, and then everyone benefited when I contributed it back to the project. It&#x27;s also been invaluable having these locally modifiable builds to understand the quirks of products from cloud vendors, and to work around them. Ever had multiple deployment pipelines fail because Azure decided to one day change the format of the timestamps they returned in API calls, without publishing a new API version? I have.<p>[4]: As opposed to supplementing their business model. Google open-sourcing K8s was great for them because it drove adoption of their cloud VMs. Their cloud business makes money off the VMs, not GKE, so sponsoring K8s is essentially a marketing expense. But for Hashicorp, their core business model is paid offerings of their products.<p>[5]: Yes, I get that the license currently is un-clear, for all their products. But let&#x27;s simply say that you&#x27;re not trying to directly sell a wrapper around running Terraform.
berniedurfee将近 2 年前
Terrafork?
0xbadcafebee将近 2 年前
Actually, can we just kill Terraform? Please?<p>Terraform has a bad design. It&#x27;s a configuration management tool, first and foremost, and configuration management tools need to do one thing well: fix things. Not just &quot;change state&quot;, but functionally, actually fix some software to make it work again. Terraform is really bad at this. It&#x27;s difficult to configure, difficult to operate, and it likes to find any reason at all to just blow up and force you to figure out how to make the software work again.<p>Configuration management tools should make your life easier, not harder. You shouldn&#x27;t have to hire a &quot;Terraform Admin with 3 yrs experience&quot; just to learn all the bizarre quirks of this one tool just to get your S3 bucket to have the correct policy again. You shouldn&#x27;t have to write Go tests just to change said policy. It&#x27;s like it was invented to be a jobs program for sysadmins.<p>I have a laundry list of all the stupid design decisions that went into the damn thing. And because the entire god damn industry is stuck on this one tool, no other tool will ever replace it. Its providers are so large and there are so many modules created that it would take years of constant development to replace it. So it doesn&#x27;t get changed or improved, and it can never be replaced. It is the incumbent that blocks progress. A technological quagmire we can&#x27;t extricate ourselves from.<p>The essential purpose of this tool is really to be a general interface to random APIs, track dependencies in a DAG, pass values into resources when it has them, attempt to submit a request to the API, and then die if it doesn&#x27;t get a 200 back. We can accomplish this in a simpler way that is less proprietary and more useful. And we can ramp up on specific functionality to give the solution actual intelligence, like default behaviors for specific resources in specific providers, hints on how to name a resource, more examples, canned modules that are easier to discover or publish, ability to use different languages or executables, etc. But we need to put forward those alternatives now, or we won&#x27;t get the chance again for a long time.
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sredevops01将近 2 年前
Terraform is terrible as it is. Good riddance. We need real tools instead of messing around with text files with ridiculous formatting.
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