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Wayland Isn't Going to Save the Linux Desktop (2022)

74 点作者 zinekeller超过 1 年前

32 条评论

starlevel003超过 1 年前
I updated my system recently and KDE under X11 started stuttering all the time, especially when opening new windows (which made using IntelliJ unusable, for example). Switched to Wayland and it just works. That&#x27;s all it really took for me to go from a &quot;I don&#x27;t care about Wayland&quot; guy to &quot;I am a Wayland truther&quot; guy.<p>Similar story for Pipewire; Pulseaudio had crackles and Pipewire didn&#x27;t. Such is the way of life.
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t43562超过 1 年前
I think its&#x27; quite common to believe that a rewrite will be wonderful and then find out that it has its own problems.<p>The big problems are the social ones - I think the author is correct that allowing fragmentation is a big big mistake that cannot be recovered from and wastes everyone&#x27;s time.<p>I&#x27;m also concerned about the &quot;justify your usecase&quot; issues. I know why people like to say that kind of thing when they have a philosophy that they don&#x27;t want to toss out but to me it&#x27;s never been a way to win people over to working on your system. Usually one cannot understand every single use case or at least understand how important it is to the people who want it. Making life difficult for others is not a recipe for success.
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sprash超过 1 年前
Wayland is the downfall of the Linux Desktop and the FOSS desktop ecosystem in general. It is actively developer hostile, overly complicated and the technical merits are questionable at best. It has the wrong philosophy about absolutely everything. Not only are simple and trivial things hard to do. Most things can&#x27;t be done because standardized interfaces don&#x27;t exist. The &quot;process&quot; of standardizing even the smallest features, no matter how essential through the &quot;Wayland committee&quot; takes literally multiple years.<p>What people really need is a &quot;desktop protocol&quot; not a &quot;display protocol&quot;.
shrubble超过 1 年前
What is sad is that this is, unwittingly, a consolidation of unix desktop onto just 1 monoculture of Linux with Wayland should it become ubiquitous.<p>Since there is no network transparency, you won&#x27;t have the ability to interoperate with graphical applications running on non-Linux machines either.<p>Meanwhile I was able to ssh -X into my FreeBSD desktop with a low end Linux laptop and run the same apps with the same settings etc. by using X11 which runs on both systems.
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jasoneckert超过 1 年前
I&#x27;m always cautious about the points made in blogs that have bold titles that don&#x27;t accurately reflect the content, such as this one. In short, this blog title could be &quot;My criticisms of Wayland.&quot;<p>That being said, I&#x27;ve migrated to Wayland this year because it has become more stable for what I run compared to Xorg, and from following the Wayland and Fedora projects closely, I feel it has recently reached a high level of development, and more importantly, development interest (both of which will likely cause it to supplant Xorg sooner than later). In short, Wayland definitely seems like the Way to go ;-)
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tomohawk超过 1 年前
&gt; If you ask developers &quot;why can&#x27;t I do XYZ&quot;, you&#x27;ll likely get an answer along the lines of &quot;why do you need to do that&quot; or &quot;justify your usecase&quot;.<p>This is the difference between application programming and infrastructure programming. When doing app development, it&#x27;s best to limit scope as much as possible in order to reduce risk. If you don&#x27;t need it, toss it.<p>On the other hand, infrastructure only exists to reduce overall risk across all apps. It does this by accepting risk and dealing with the gnarly bits so apps don&#x27;t have to. Put too much opinion into infrastructure, and that pushes that risk onto all of the apps. Often, the apps don&#x27;t have the leverage to deal with that, so people stop using the infrastructure.
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sho_hn超过 1 年前
This is an interesting post and somewhat more technical and informed than many Wayland rants, however, it&#x27;s worth knowing that in 2022, some of the problems that it describes have already been solved. For example, fractional scaling is now supported.
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dzaima超过 1 年前
X11 works.. when noone actually uses X11, but actually some wrapper API that was made alongside the development of X11, or suffered through effectively replaying history. Some fun things I recall encountering while trying to use it:<p>Want to detect a left click? Sure! How about the back&#x2F;forward buttons on the mouse? nope, not in the API; well, if you try pressing them you&#x27;ll see them going to mouse button constants 8 &amp; 9, but I didn&#x27;t find that in any documentation.<p>Want to get scrolling events? There are mouse press things for that (even left&#x2F;right!). Want to also handle touchpads which may have fractional scrolls? Well, there is some confusing &quot;valuator&quot; stuff, and you can take a delta between two valuator event floats.. but after using it for a while, you&#x27;ll notice that the app will like randomly scroll by large distances. Turns out... that valuator value is <i>a globally accumulated value</i>, so you have to hack in a thing to &quot;reset&quot; the &quot;calibration&quot; of that any time the mouse exits a window (try it - move mouse out &amp; in a window, scroll one tick, repeat - you&#x27;ll never scroll anywhere).<p>For text input, you can thankfully call a thing that&#x27;ll do XCompose &amp; most key handling for you, but to handle xmodmap I believe you have to write the mapping functionality yourself; didn&#x27;t bother. Then there&#x27;s some stuff about how in some context a window was not focusable through some specific method for some undetermined amount of time after being made visible, but there might be some reason for that (never bothered to figure it out).<p>Now, I don&#x27;t know if wayland does any better on any of this, but I sure hope it does, as it does seem to at least make an attempt at being usable. Maybe wayland will go the same route, with a middle-man library that handles all the DE-specific stuff. There&#x27;s already some of that for window decorations.
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bitsandboots超过 1 年前
It seems like wayland got a lot closer to generally usable in the last few years, but it&#x27;s still not for everyone. Some of this is (intentionally) limited design, some of this is lack of people caring to migrate their software to work with wayland.<p>I was looking to switch to wayland in my VM after noticing that it does have much lower cpu utilization, and better compositing behavior, at the same time. Yet, can&#x27;t do it. right or wrong, wayland&#x27;s stance on security before convenience on the whole clipboard access thing means I cannot copy-paste between VM and host, because those vm tools do not support wayland, and I don&#x27;t know when they will.<p>Also, I noticed that people who prefer obscure window managers or desktop environments are mostly in a bad spot, as the amount of WMs that support wayland isn&#x27;t much.
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Darmody超过 1 年前
The only thing that makes me go back to Xorg is Wayland not supporting custom notification for apps.<p>I use Telegram Desktop a lot and I want their custom notifications, not the ugly thing that pops up on Wayland which doesn&#x27;t even take me to Telegram when I click it.
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FloatArtifact超过 1 年前
Wayland security model fundamentally fractures automation&#x2F;accessibility software. Accessibility tools need access to inspecting and injecting into other windows without root. For example, reading window properties and injecting virtual peripheral input like key&#x2F;mouse. I&#x27;m hoping this has changed.
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bragr超过 1 年前
I know complaining about a site&#x27;s layout and color isn&#x27;t useful, but this is unreadable without reader mode for me.
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Vt71fcAqt7超过 1 年前
Is copying fixed? Last I checked it seems you cannot copy-paste in many cases with wayland. There are clipboard managers for wayland that solve this but not entirely (such as in a vm, keeping formating, other edge cases IIRC). Hearing about this issue has made my never consider switching to wayland. Is this still the case?
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sombragris超过 1 年前
I&#x27;m not conversant with Wayland technical intricacies. I use Plasma; Wayland works OK for me and in many respects feels like an improvement over X11, but I still have two gripes:<p>- Last time I checked, I could not share my screen over Zoom. This could have been fixed now. (I know, it&#x27;s a proprietary application but still...)<p>- My favorite screenshot application (KSnip) still has reduced functionality over Wayland.<p>I think these issues are representative of many users&#x27; experiences, that is, things usually work as usual or improved, but there are some corner cases where there are annoyances. Let&#x27;s hope they will get sorted out.
rvz超过 1 年前
So we are still fighting over a desktop windowing system and reviving the Xorg vs Wayland battle.<p>Meanwhile the winners are the users who chose not to play this game with their machines or rant about how a basic app does not run on Wayland and runs on Xorg or vice versa and instead use either a Mac or Windows machine with standard defaults.<p>If you&#x27;re app glitches on either windowing system and you continue to rant because you need to tweak the dotfiles, systemd services or dive into config files, then you might as well use WSL2 instead.<p>At least Windows has a much more pleasant desktop environment.
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self_awareness超过 1 年前
I really hope Wayland won&#x27;t replace Xorg anytime soon, because it still hangs my machine when I&#x27;m trying to run it. I would hate to be forced to move to macOS.
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coldblues超过 1 年前
I&#x27;m one of the people who does not comment on these matters because things &quot;just work&quot; on my machine, but I&#x27;d like to say my thoughts as well. Wayland is fine. I still am using i3wm (X11) currently, but Wayland works perfectly fine. There are a lot of things going in the right direction, and I consider Wayland clearly superior. There is absolutely nothing holding me back from switching. Yes, there are minor inconveniences like the lack of a hardware accelerated cursor. Sometimes my compositor crashes on some very old programs that still use GTK2 or some old framework for some reason, but everything outside of that is completely stable and usable. If I don&#x27;t know something, I ask or browse the wiki, search up alternatives for existing X11 programs, and try to fix stuff myself. I am using the proprietary NVIDIA drivers and it works. I don&#x27;t have multiple monitors, my resolution is 2560x1440. Things are fine, and they will only get better.
spiralpolitik超过 1 年前
I&#x27;ve been using Wayland on Manjaro&#x2F;Sway for the last 6 months. Zero issues beyond figuring out the new way of doing things.<p>As a former X11 application developer I will say that X11 should have been put out to pasture a long time ago. It&#x27;s been moribund since the 00s and the quicker that distributions move to Wayland only, the quicker Wayland will improve.
Faaak超过 1 年前
Started using wayland a year ago with sway. A was a bit frightened at first, but in the end everything worked. From firefox, to steam and their games.<p>The only &quot;drawback&quot; was that when I launched windows (ex: wireshark) at root, it didn&#x27;t work and I had to previously allow &quot;root&quot; to open windows on my login (with xhost). Thought it was quite neat
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Buxato超过 1 年前
Would like to read a reply to this article by one of the main Wayland devs
billconan超过 1 年前
I wanted to implement the detachable tabs in my application, similar to that of chrome&#x2F;sublime text. And I learned that this is not possible with wayland, because wayland doesn&#x27;t give you the mouse&#x27;s global position (for dragging and dropping, I need to know if the cursor is hovering a foreign window).
o0banky0o超过 1 年前
Reading this produces the same lump in the throat as the arch forums. The phallosophers want the user to disappear and finally let the computers display their beautiful art.
bitcharmer超过 1 年前
Why does Linux desktop need saving? I don&#x27;t understand; been using Linux as daily driver for the past 20+ years. It&#x27;s getting better every year.
resuresu超过 1 年前
2023 and Linux is still struggling to achieve the same level of basic functionality that windows and mac have had for decades now.
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red_trumpet超过 1 年前
&gt; The best statistics we have on this come from the February 2022 phoronix article on telemetry data from firefox users. It found that less than 10% of Firefox users on Linux are using Wayland in any form.<p>I&#x27;d guess those numbers changed when Wayland became the default for Ubuntu 22.04, which was released in April 2022. Does anyone know of newer data?
askonomm超过 1 年前
Tried Wayland, has horrible fractional scaling support (Not that X11 is much better) and went back to Windows. If the Linux guys still can&#x27;t make high-dpi displays work after them being the norm for 10 years I&#x27;m not sure it will ever happen.
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unshavedyak超过 1 年前
I’m just waiting for nvidia drivers to be supported fully, for working with blender. Iirc some work was being done there, but I don’t follow it closely after some wayland dev(s) seemed hostile to nvidia users. .. somewhat understandably, but still.
jtotheh超过 1 年前
My killer app for X11 is XScreenSaver. Wayland can&#x27;t run it, so forget Wayland.
WhereIsTheTruth超过 1 年前
People who think there can&#x2F;should only be &quot;1 linux desktop&quot;, completely misunderstood what linux is all about<p>It is about the experience you craft for yourself, my desktop is different than yours, it is supposed to be like that, and is the reason why linux scale from microcontrollers, to game consoles, to datacenters<p>These people are out of touch
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a_nop超过 1 年前
I thought Wayland was supposed to save the Linux Phone, not the Linux Desktop?
gjvc超过 1 年前
the only think stopping me using is the unsupported nightshift &#x2F; redshift &#x2F; KDE night colour stuff
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bennylava超过 1 年前
Why was there a need to reinvent the wheel when this effort could have been used to improve X11&#x2F;Xorg instead?