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Notes from UPenn's Forum on Brogramming and Sexism in Computer Science

82 点作者 tessr大约 13 年前

18 条评论

wpietri大约 13 年前
For my fellow guys who may be unsure how to participate in discussions like this without looking like an ass, may I suggest:<p>Quora's discussion on "What things are most useful for men to keep in mind when discussing theories or topics relating to gender?" <a href="http://www.quora.com/What-things-are-most-useful-for-men-to-keep-in-mind-when-discussing-theories-or-topics-relating-to-gender" rel="nofollow">http://www.quora.com/What-things-are-most-useful-for-men-to-...</a><p>Ellen Spertus's classic "Why are There so Few Female Computer Scientists?": <a href="http://people.mills.edu/spertus/Gender/pap/pap.html" rel="nofollow">http://people.mills.edu/spertus/Gender/pap/pap.html</a><p>The handy "Male Programmer Privilege Checklist": <a href="http://geekfeminism.wikia.com/wiki/Male_Programmer_Privilege_Checklist" rel="nofollow">http://geekfeminism.wikia.com/wiki/Male_Programmer_Privilege...</a><p>"HOWTO Encourage Women in Linux": <a href="http://www.faqs.org/docs/Linux-HOWTO/Encourage-Women-Linux-HOWTO.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.faqs.org/docs/Linux-HOWTO/Encourage-Women-Linux-H...</a><p>And that useful reference "Derailing for Dummies": <a href="http://derailingfordummies.com/" rel="nofollow">http://derailingfordummies.com/</a>
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nhashem大约 13 年前
I find the "brogramming" thing fascinating because I've never actually met anyone that has called themselves "brogrammer" non-ironically or non-satirically. My best friend's cousin is from Long Island and he has cousins that call themselves "guidos" and intentionally live up to every Jersey Shore stereotype because they legitimately think it's cool. My experience is only anecdotal, but I've yet to meet anyone who has actually used "brogramming" as a serious label for themselves.<p>My own personal theory is that there are two collective phenomenon at play here:<p>1) There's a self-cyclical force here where some people think brogramming <i>is</i> a label some people use non-ironically, so there are things like marketing materials developed specifically for it, which by definition will be exclusionary and sexist. This material further spreads the idea that "brogrammers are real" and everyone gradually forgets that nobody is actually this ridiculous.<p>2) There is a fear among programmers that our wonderful merit-based community accepting of all genders, cultures, and creeds -- which it is, really -- is going to turn into Phi Delta Toolbag overnight. For a lot of us, myself included, we've never been one of the "cool kids" and found computers and technology a much better fit for our introverted personalities. And suddenly these pink popped-collared polo shirt sunglass-wearing monsters are going to <i>take that away from us.</i><p>Anyway, I understand why the women at UPenn would be offended by the "brogrammer" term, sometimes you just don't want to be associated with a term even if it's satirical. But are there actual brogrammers out there being sexist, or is this an overblown issue?
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stale2000大约 13 年前
Is the stereotype of the frat boy, or tradition "bro" offensive? Not as it applies to technology or brogramming, but just as it exists by itself, or as it relates to Greek culture. Does it discourage women from joining Greek organizations, and is therefore discriminatory or offensive?<p>IMO, it doesn't discourage women from joining Greek organizations, as there is a corresponding Sorority girl stereotype and culture that is completely different from the frat bro stereotype.<p>To bring this back to the topic, I believe that the brogramming stereotype may only be off-putting to women as there doesn't currently exist a corresponding "programmer girl" stereotype that is completely different from the male-focused ones and is also a stereotype that women might aspire to be like.<p>As such, I don't think telling people to get rid of there new meme, because its off-putting to women, is going to be very effective (I mean, just look at how long people have been trying to get rid of the nerdy CS major stereotype), but starting your own "coding girl" stereotype just might.<p>Bryan
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pilgrim689大约 13 年前
Brogramming and being sexist are two completely different things.<p>My girlfriend is also in the field of software engineering. Often times, we program together. However, on rare occasions I'll get together with my male friends one evening and indulge on Pizza Pockets and Python. We call it "brogramming" as self-mockery. I'm not being sexist; I'm hanging out with my buddies, and she completely understands that.<p>I don't like watching football with my male friends, so we code together instead. As long as we keep brogramming outside of work, it should <i>not</i> be thrown in the same basket as sexism... and it's ridiculous to propose that we abolish men wanting to sometimes code with men outside of work.
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xenophanes大约 13 年前
All this talk about "Don't do X, it's sexist" or "Don't do Y if it's for Men not People" has a negative focus: what not to do.<p>And then punishing offenders instead of helping them learn better. People don't learn by punishment. (See: Karl Popper.)<p>At best, this gets people to hide <i>overt</i> problems. It sweeps problems under the rug without getting rid of them. People will still think sexist thoughts, then add self-censorship on top of that.<p>Real solutions will come from discussion of better ways of life and thinking: what to do instead. And how to characterize this by what it's about rather than a list of things excluded. Life needs a whitelist more than a blacklist.
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petercooper大约 13 年前
It is interesting watching this discussion play out.<p>I've been wondering whether people are put off becoming musicians/writers/artists due to others having sexist stereotypes in their material. We don't seem to see the same widespread demands for apologies and desistance in those fields (consider the amount of songs talking about "bi^ches" and the like) - or do we? But then I realized that we <i>have</i> seen racism (and homophobia) become taboo in pop culture and the arts, thankfully, yet sexism is still a free for all. Why?<p>As idiotic as "brogramming" is (IMHO) and as much as I think software development <i>should</i> be a semi-academic, tight-knit discipline with progressive and respectful norms, many of these things causing offense seem to be misjudged attempts at injecting pop culture. "Brogramming" is on par with the group "LMFAO" in terms of stupidity and tact, yet LMFAO are not called upon to apologize or up their game to stop offending people. Why? (Differing standards for pop culture celebrities vs professionals, maybe? But are some developers also pop culture celebrities? Tricky.)<p>Bear in mind this is just armchair sociological analysis, and no opinion of mine can be derived from these questions (well, other than that brogramming is a bit silly and that I think we should all treat each other with the respect we'd also want to receive) :-)
driverdan大约 13 年前
It was funny when it was just a joke mocking foolishness. It was no longer funny when people intentionally began doing it.
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fourk大约 13 年前
I feel like I'm missing something here. Why would someone (of any gender) feel like they're missing out due to an inability to fit a stereotype melding douchebag frat boy with programmer?<p>It's sad to me, because there are so many much more worthy things for us to aspire towards, as software developers, than some stereotype based around degenerate behavior.
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useflyer大约 13 年前
As a once upon a time finance guy who made the transition to web designer / founder, I have the following observation:<p>Wall street was the hot go-to destination, and it was as 'bro' as it got. The never-ending conversation was "can women fit in on Wall street?"<p>Now SV is the hot go-to destination, and its getting 'bro'. The new conversation is "can women fit on in SV?"
parfe大约 13 年前
A quick (but not comprehensive, conclusive, or popularly agreed upon!) guide for determining if you plan on doing something sexist, ask yourself:<p><pre><code> "Is this for Men? Or is this for People?" </code></pre> e.g. Advertising/Hiring "all-female servants" is for men. "Serving food and drinks" is for people.<p>Side-note: If you <i>ever</i> think to respond with "But what about lesbians?" you are attempting to justify something sexist. Start over and cater to People.
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redthrowaway大约 13 年前
&#62;Why is “brogrammer” offensive, anyways?<p>Because it denotes retards trying to pass themselves off as qualified. Just as "humbers" would denote unqualified plumbers trying to ply their trade, or "barpenters" would denote something similar. "Brogrammers" isn't offensive because it's sexist; it's offensive because it's idiotic.
dinkumthinkum大约 13 年前
It just makes me think of non-technical programmers that recently started programming after watching a few screencasts of "pick your 'hip' web framework" and now consider themselves to be uber-hackers or something.
arjunnarayan大约 13 年前
&#62; As I see it, women are put off by “brogrammer” for two reasons. Some women would say that dichotomy of “programmer” and “frat bro” leaves women out altogether. If you’re not a nerdy boy or a brogrammer, where do you fit in? Others see the brogrammer meme as taking the most “masculine” aspects of the discipline and emphasizing them (think chugging Red Bull, pumping iron, eating steak and “getting” women). Is this really what we should be doing when women are already so underrepresented?<p>I think the author is misreading the entire "movement" by first assuming the false dichotomy she stated, that I've quoted above: that computer science is for the two exclusive groups of "nerdy boys" and "brogrammers". First, the entire meme is mostly satire making fun of bros. Because, hey, easy targets, right?<p>Second, whatever serious brogrammers there are isn't out of nerdy guys coming out of the woodwork and embracing a culture of bro-ing. I know and socialize with a fair number of self-proclaimed "bros". Whatever non-satire based brogrammers exist, they come from a realization on the part of the bros-who-formerly-did-not-program --- that programming is a useful skill. So a lot of bros who previously took Econ classes and lined up for the investment banking recruiting sessions are now learning how to program and spending more time in the CS department.<p>I don't think this is something to be "offended" by. If what you're offended by is bro-culture (and yes, I will be the first to say that there are sometimes troubling things about a frat-culture that sometimes objectifies women --- the "brogramming" session cited where recruiters were trumpeting the existence of naked women at parties _is_ offensive.), then decry those bros that _do_ do things that marginalize various groups. But there are plenty of bros who do nothing worse than consume copious amounts of alcohol on friday night, play games of beerpong late into the night, wear popped collars, get excessive tans and lift a lot of weights (which is how I've met most of my bro friends, seeing as I do find some of those activities pleasurable). It's not all Mike-The-Situation out here, and you can empirically verify this fact by walking down Walnut Street on a Friday Night as the frat parties are in session.<p>But as a computer scientist who has all too often seen too many groups excluded from this beautiful subject --- I'm mostly troubled by this blogpost --- as it is an attempt to marginalize a group of different people (bros) who seem to have taken to learning more computer science. I want more bros in computer science. more women, more goths, more emos, more whatever-stereotype you have in mind. And if they want to brogram, let them.
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gt384u大约 13 年前
Never did I expect to have this discussion about "brogramming" as a legitimate phenomenon. My knee-jerk reaction is to lament that this is a misunderstanding of language/culture and that is why we can't have nice things, but that's just simple of me to think so. Clearly the cultural angle of this is much more interesting if a large group of reasonable, intelligent people in the software community at large can arrive at such a broken state of affairs.<p>I took it for granted that the portmanteau of "bro" (never a positive adjective in my corner of the world, e.g. "Ugh, the bar upstairs was full of bros, so we left") and "programmer" was something that was obviously poking fun at (among other things) the social life of the archetypical awkward, introverted programmer.<p>With the above in mind, I truly adored the satire of brogrammer when I first came upon it. I would have never thought of it being exclusive towards women because, frankly, all of the women in computer science I've ever worked with have been not only good computer scientists, but also properly well-rounded individuals able to comport themselves with other human beings without being painful to be around who never ever EVER desire being a Brogrammer and would be offended to be called as much.<p>I kind of laughed brogramming off early on in the genesis of the phenomenon when I saw people behaving like they were taking it seriously. My thought was they were using an ultra-mock seriousness in the furtherance of humor. Think of your favorite comedian looking you square in the eye and telling you that, say, they think babies are delicious for breakfast on toast.<p>The discourse on brogramming sort of percolated over time, then I distictly recall that I saw a post from someone in (Malaysia, maybe?) here on HN where they were referring to themselves as a Brogrammer on their website's bio, and I took it to be either someone who had the misfortune to lose something in translation, or that I misunderstood that they too were in on the joke, as it were. I know when I try to understand humor in French or Spanish I lose a great deal of the nuance and have to resort to fairly broad humor when I communicate in those languages. As a consequence, I tend to avoid trying to be funny in anything other than English. It's for the best.<p>Then I saw articles popping up in the media about Brogramming as cultural phenomenon and I took it to be the standard sort of journalistic fare where a cultural phenomenon that gets reported on is either wildly misrepresented or turns out to be patently false. Anyone remember "toothing" [1] from early-mid 2000's? Just think how much serious play that got in the news. So much so, that I'd be shocked if there weren't a substantial number of people who tried it out of curiosity.<p>And now I'm discovering that Brogramming isn't a self-deprecating joke that I've been sharing with nearly as many people as I thought. I'm not sure if this would really happen, but I'd be eager to hear from journalists who reported it as phenomenon, startups and recruiters who chose to use it as recruiting pitch, or someone who internalized Brogramming as aspirational lifestyle. I'm just confused.<p>At any rate, I give up. No joke is worth the shitty feelings and exclusion and hurt and animosity that I'm seeing being identified now as coming out of brogramming as meme.<p>[1] <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toothing" rel="nofollow">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toothing</a>
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wavephorm大约 13 年前
I coudn't even finish the article, it just sounded like a bunch of whiny nagging.
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temphn大约 13 年前
Let's start with some facts.<p>FACT: Men and women have significant, measurable neurological differences[1].<p>FACT: These differences are measurable before birth[2].<p>FACT: Men and women show large, reproducible differences <i>on average</i> in tests of visuospatial ability, differences that can be mapped back to the brain[3]<p><pre><code> Men consistently outperform women on spatial tasks, including mental rotation, which is the ability to identify how a 3-D object would appear if rotated in space. Now, a University of Iowa study shows a connection between this sex-linked ability and the structure of the parietal lobe, the brain region that controls this type of skill. The parietal lobe was already known to differ between men and women, with women's parietal lobes having proportionally thicker cortexes or "grey matter." But this difference was never linked back to actual performance differences on the mental rotation test. ... "Differences in parietal lobe activation have been seen in other studies. This study represents the first time we have related specific structural differences in the parietal lobe to sex-linked performances on a mental rotation test," said Tim Koscik, the study's lead author and a graduate student in the University of Iowa Neuroscience Graduate Program. "It's important to note that it isn't that women cannot do the mental rotation tasks, but they appear to do them slower, and neither men nor women perform the tasks perfectly." </code></pre> There are literally thousands more studies of the deep rooted genetic, neurological, and endocrinological differences between the genders on pubmed.org. These differences manifest before birth. And this research is what your tax dollars pay for. It is just young earth creationism to postulate that evolution did not happen, or that biological gender differences do not exist or are somehow disconnected from their real world consequences.<p>One of the consequences is that in any niche which requires cognitive or physical activity, we should not expect an exactly 50/50 distribution of males and females. Interests differ. Abilities differ.<p>The religious outcry against stating these basic evolutionary facts got Larry Summers ousted as the President of Harvard in 2005. You simply cannot state these facts and retain your job. And the irony of all ironies is that those who drove the President of Harvard from power will insist that they are actually the oppressed, rather than the powerful.<p>That's the root of the matter here. The ostensible evil of the term "brogrammer" rests upon the tacit desirability of having a 50/50 distribution of women in programming, which in turn rests upon the presumption that it is even possible to <i>achieve</i> this equality given biological constraints, constraints that are obvious upon a cursory skim of the relevant literature. We are just not blank slates to be blasted clean and remade by ideology.<p>[1] <a href="http://www.amazon.com/Female-Brain-Louann-Brizendine-M-D/dp/0767920090" rel="nofollow">http://www.amazon.com/Female-Brain-Louann-Brizendine-M-D/dp/...</a><p>[2] <a href="http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2009-10/uu-spb102309.php" rel="nofollow">http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2009-10/uu-spb102309....</a><p>[3] <a href="http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2008-12/uoi-sdo121708.php" rel="nofollow">http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2008-12/uoi-sdo121708...</a>
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davvilla大约 13 年前
Hahaha that's so cool. Thats my laptop right there!
edwinnathaniel大约 13 年前
As a group of Computer Scientists, Software Engineers, Developers, we seem to try hard to be "accepted" by the public.<p>Why is that?<p>Ever since a very long time ago, we want to be acknowledged and to be put in pedestal. Be it the word "prodigy", "young hacker", "talented nerd", "millionaire boy" or something along that line....