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Why isn’t dotnet core popular among startups?

48 点作者 bundie超过 1 年前

23 条评论

keltex超过 1 年前
I think the indended link was: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;old.reddit.com&#x2F;r&#x2F;dotnet&#x2F;comments&#x2F;16fu7o0&#x2F;why_isnt_dotnet_core_popular_among_startups&#x2F;" rel="nofollow noreferrer">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;old.reddit.com&#x2F;r&#x2F;dotnet&#x2F;comments&#x2F;16fu7o0&#x2F;why_isnt_do...</a>
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edgyquant超过 1 年前
Why would you use C# if starting a company&#x2F;project today? I know C# fans love it, but seriously why not choose a community driven language over one controlled by microsoft?
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phillipcarter超过 1 年前
When I joined the .NET team in 2015, we were rounding out the first arc of the journey to be truly cross-platform, and June of 2016 released a 1.0. It was an absolute mess of a release, but it actually happened. You can bet your ass that &quot;go after startups&quot; was a part of the strategy - in my first team meeting we literally all read a blog post about how Go was picked over C# at Parse. I&#x27;m sure our execution of that strategy could have gone better, but it could have been a lot worse too.<p>Since then, I learned a great deal about how inertia within developer communities works. Every single year I&#x27;d speak with a skeptic and they&#x27;d have a &quot;reason&quot; not to use .NET that wasn&#x27;t true. Eventually they&#x27;d land on a reason that was true, and in most cases, we were already working on it. We&#x27;d even find some past skeptics say publicly how they started paying attention, picked up the tech, and loved it. Fast forward to 2020 and pretty much every possible reason that isn&#x27;t purely idealogical evaporated because we (hundreds of us) did an immense amount of extremely hard work. But by and large, the perception is still there.<p>The reality is that .NET was a Windows technology for a long time, operating in a space (&quot;the enterprise&quot;) that&#x27;s a wholly separate universe from startups. And people bring what they know into companies; they don&#x27;t usually try to learn new languages or tech unless it&#x27;s required for their job. And that&#x27;s created a feedback cycle where .NET is <i>outside</i> the startup and high tech scene.<p>Yes, there&#x27;s warts (don&#x27;t get me started on how MSBuild isn&#x27;t deterministic, although you likely wouldn&#x27;t have known that...), but few people run into them. Yes, there&#x27;s missing packages for some stuff but that gap closes every year. It&#x27;s not about that. It&#x27;s about a cultural feedback cycle that .NET is simply not a part of. The bet was that we could build great tech that works in most environments, sprinkle some marketing on it, and people will pick it up. That&#x27;s largely not happened. Most of modern .NET is still in the same space that Windows .NET was, it&#x27;s just that it&#x27;s kept pace with (and sometimes led) the modernization of general tech in that space. That&#x27;s largely fine because there&#x27;s millions of developers there.
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marricks超过 1 年前
Honestly, when I started dev the .net learning materials made me feel like an idiot. It seems like no one teaching it was willing to acknowledge how things were organized might have been stupid. Ergo, any confusion you had was a problem with you not the software.<p>Cryptic errors for basic mistakes and the default option for it, at the time, visual studio&#x27;s thousand menu&#x27;s and buttons.<p>&quot;Oh you complete fool, you&#x27;re using .net version 4.7 which is completely incompatable, go through 5 menus to download it. Hope you have the right version of Microsoft Silverlight!&quot; I had to download like 10 versions of .net by the time I was done.<p>A comparatively large amount of work for a hello world compared to almost any other choice for PHP or Python. And those had tutorials and text based environments were approachable.<p>I definitely had issues with Apache&#x27;s config hidden god knows where but learning how to search for config files was a skill I found far more useful than rooting around layers of menus while someone told me this was normal and, actually, good.<p>If I had to choose a tech start for a start up MS still wouldn&#x27;t be my first or second choice. I&#x27;m sure it works, but god that first year informed me it wasn&#x27;t the community I wanted to be in.
PreInternet01超过 1 年前
Previously submitted and discussed: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=37476823">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=37476823</a>
otterpro超过 1 年前
As a fullstack dev working with c#&#x2F;.net backend and react frontend, I can say that c# is great, and I wished more projects would use it.<p>&lt;rant&gt; Unfortunately, I agree that Microsoft was too late in realization that it is important to make it easier for developers and that they need to cater to the devs, instead of getting in their ways and making it harder for devs. The visual studio pro is still expensive (it should be FREE! community ed doesn&#x27;t count) and still not as good as Jetbrain&#x27;s Rider, which runs circle on VS. In fact, if MS had any sense, they should&#x27;ve bought Jetbrain just for Rider and scrap their bloated&#x2F;slow visual studio, which only runs on Windows. MS needs to improve their tooling and also make VS for Linux if they want c# to be taken seriously for cross-platform dev. And stop changing the platforms and remove their absolute convoluted naming scheme. Why do we have .NET core which is now .NET 6, .NET framework is now supported and deprecated at the same time, desktop apps were written in WPF, and then UWP? and MAUI, and now is it called WinUI3? I have no idea because I can&#x27;t keep track of changes anymore. One day it&#x27;s called .net, who knows in few years it&#x27;s going to be .azure, or whatever. &lt;&#x2F;rant&gt;
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barumrho超过 1 年前
Isn&#x27;t it because it was tied to Windows? My impression still is that the ecosystem is not as well supported outside of Windows.<p>Similar problem with Swift even though it started out as an open source project. The ties to Apple OSes are hard to break and ignore.
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INTPenis超过 1 年前
As a lifetime Linux user, I think it&#x27;s obvious. A startup is about getting a product out to market as soon as possible, and hopefully as cheaply as possible, which can best be done with open and freely available tools.<p>When I&#x27;m in the zone, my creativity is flowing, the last thing I need is to register on some website, or to purchase a license.
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olavgg超过 1 年前
I recently launched a startup, we use Java, some Python and even a little bit of Rust. For web we also use plain Javascript. We will most likely add some GoLang and C&#x2F;C++ for specific problems we need to solve in the future.<p>But using C# .Net? It&#x27;s completely irrelevant, it adds absolutely nothing. The performance is similar to Java. The syntax is similar to Java. But the eco-system is one of the smallest of all the big programming languages. And most of the documentation&#x2F;blog posts about C# is heavily Windows focused, and we run only on Linux. The only reason I think of why I should use C# is when we need a Windows-based desktop application. But I think Java+JavaFX will be just as good and will also work great on MacOS and Linux desktop.
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naraga超过 1 年前
i&#x27;ve tried to &quot;escape&quot; .net ecosystem few times already. reason always was curiosity about pther ecosystems &#x2F; languages. Ruby, Python, JS, Rust. i have returned every single time. from my point of view every other thing i&#x27;ve tried is underdeveloped toy compared to what .net ecosystem gives you. superb languages (c#, f#) toolset, compatibility guarantees. i understand the rebelion point of view and a pay huge respect to those people pushing alternatives forward. thanks to them Microsoft was also able to adapt to latest fanciest standards.
shrubble超过 1 年前
Their idea of a long term release is 3 years, for one, which can cause maintainability headaches. Second, portability across Unix platforms is low - the current release doesn&#x27;t even run on FreeBSD .
knallfrosch超过 1 年前
The naming truly sucks. You search for .NET and you find .NET framework, ASP.NET, .NET Core, .NET Framework, what even is .NET Xamarin MAUI?<p>You look for a solution and find an [AttributeDecorator] that no longer works or is considered bad practise, or is it the new silver bullet - who knows? You better return IHttpActionResult, or do you set the context.Response? Hmm.<p>It&#x27;s much easier with younger Frameworks like Svelte, NestJS, Flutter or younger languages like TypeScript, GraphQL. You won&#x27;t be told stuff that&#x27;s been dead for 20 years.
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xboxnolifes超过 1 年前
More and more recently I have been seeing C#&#x2F;.NET show up in job listings that aren&#x27;t just 10,000+ employee enterprise companies. I think it has been becoming more popular.
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rjzzleep超过 1 年前
.NET Core was in some ways inspired by the ALT .NET movement(I think).<p>I&#x27;m not entirely sure where it started, but if my own experience (from 2012) is any indication then it was very much related to people coming out of enterprise and government, that had to deal with ASP.NET and WebForms, but didn&#x27;t want to deal with it, because they had experience with web frameworks that weren&#x27;t the nightmare ASP.NET and WebForms were.<p>I worked with a few of those in 2012 and people were hopeful about .net core. But the major difference between .net core and typescript besides the historical mental baggage and the way Microsoft typically responds to patches to open source projects is that typescript was building on a massive JavaScript base. And because ECMAScript development was active these two were building on each other.<p>I think C# is a lot nicer than Java but unfortunately with the community mismanagement it&#x27;s not really a serious contender unless you HAVE to be in that environment(i.e. Microsoft Stack in US healthcare&#x2F;govt for example)
teleforce超过 1 年前
Dot net is a series of efforts for the holy grails of write once, run anywhere (WORA) codes.<p>It started with C, then Java and then dot net later WORA iteration, albeit it&#x27;s already more than 20 years old technology, how time flies.<p>To be fair C is extremely successful in term of popularity (case study Linux), followed by Java (case study Android) and then dot net (case study MAUI), and yet none successfully provides turnkey, seamless and hassle free solution for the WORA codes. This give rise to the joke of &quot;Write Once, Debug Everywhere&quot;.<p>It&#x27;s most likely that dot net is not going to be the last time people try to invent (or re-invent) WORA codes, so prepare yourself for the next big thing in WORA.<p>[1] Write once, run anywhere (WORA):<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Write_once,_run_anywhere" rel="nofollow noreferrer">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Write_once,_run_anywhere</a>
nsonha超过 1 年前
Do people actually like C#? It seems like a really bloated language with a ton of features.
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taxman22超过 1 年前
You should use the best tool for the job, and if that&#x27;s dotnet go for it. That said, it would be difficult to hire strong engineers, across all experience levels. Your team would probably skew older and have outdated engineering practices.
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thecodrr超过 1 年前
I don&#x27;t think that&#x27;s true. We have been using ASP .NET Core + SignalR for everything in Notesnook[0]. It has great performance, libraries for everything out there, very good ergonomics, and a mature ecosystem.<p>I know you can probably get more performance out of Rust or Go but I don&#x27;t think rq&#x2F;s benchmarks really hold up in reality. If you are running a startup, you&#x27;d probably see 1 to 2 rq&#x2F;s unless you become viral. .NET Core can easily handle that and more.<p>[0] <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;notesnook.com" rel="nofollow noreferrer">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;notesnook.com</a>
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glutamate超过 1 年前
My 2¢: if they really wanted to light up adoption, release a TypeScript compiler. I don&#x27;t mean to JavaScript but TS to CLR. C# is already so close to TypeScript. And the TS ecosystem and mindshare is huge
tmitchel2超过 1 年前
I&#x27;m using it for my startup :)
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ChrisArchitect超过 1 年前
bad url<p>and [dupe]<p>Earlier discussion over here: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=37476823">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=37476823</a>
Woshiwuja超过 1 年前
i mean if i had to choose between java and C# im choosing C# everyday, but why would i choose between 2 trashcans?
pluto_modadic超过 1 年前
oh lord. Not just a meme language as discussed, but the language and framework design decisions alone are bad enough. add onto that the business heads who think they should use C# for their startup also bring legacy enterprise ideas with them that won&#x27;t work...
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