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Usability of Old Computers

160 点作者 vkaku超过 1 年前

26 条评论

sbrorson超过 1 年前
This is a relevant article to me since I also make 20yo (or older) computers run legacy stuff ... but not for fun.<p>Factories and labs frequently have machines or instruments which are controlled by a computer. They are run off control cards which are inserted into ISA or PCI slots in the computer and are commanded by the legacy software through old, proprietary drivers. Examples are cards from National Instruments or Galil. Such equipment can cost tens of thousands of dollars (or more) when new. Also, decades-old software written by long-gone engineers at the factory still runs on the equipment, and nobody understands how the stuff works nowadays. Therefore, there is plenty of incentive to keep the old systems running and running and running.<p>Unfortunately, old computers sometimes break. That&#x27;s where I come in -- I do a side consulting business with a colleague where we refurbish the old computers -- replace parts as necessary, install old versions of the O&#x2F;S, replace mechanical hard drives with SSDs, and do whatever else is needed to keep the computers running for the next few decades.<p>I know we&#x27;re not alone out there since we&#x27;re aware of other small businesses which provide a similar service. It&#x27;s an important thing since -- as many point out here -- modern software companies don&#x27;t make backwards compatibility a priority, but factories and labs have equipment which need to run for decades, so the computers controlling them also need to run for decades.
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userbinator超过 1 年前
<i>Mostly because the HTTPS protocols are getting outdated&#x2F;changed and nothing working is kept on websites today for old computers.</i><p>There&#x27;s a patch that adds SHA256 algorithms to XP, which is the biggest obstacle.<p><i>Most websites do not work with TLS v1.2 anymore.</i><p>Are you sure you don&#x27;t mean 1.1 or 1.0? In my experience 1.2 is still supported by the vast majority of sites.<p>Also related: TLS 1.3 on Windows 3.11(!) <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=36486512">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=36486512</a><p>I&#x27;ve been thinking about the idea of easily replaceable, minimal-dependency crypto modules along with an interface that shims them into existing OS implementations. In the meantime, my MITM proxy that I force everything on my network through will take care of HTTPS and upgrading to TLS 1.2&#x2F;1.3.
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jdietrich超过 1 年前
At some point, the efficiency of new hardware completely outweighs the benefits of keeping old hardware running. Obviously there&#x27;s a valid need to preserve hardware for historical purposes, but for any other reason I think it&#x27;s a false economy.<p>The CPU on a Raspberry Pi 4 is nearly three times faster than a 3.2GHz Pentium 4. A Raspberry Pi draws no more than 10W (excluding USB devices), but the Pentium 4 has a TDP of 100W. We could draw a parallel with incandescent vs LED lightbulbs, but I think that would be too kind to the old computer - an old motherboard and a discrete GPU will add substantially to the idle power consumption.
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vel0city超过 1 年前
&quot;See, old computers really were pretty snappy!&quot;<p>Most of the desktops I saw people using in 2004 had like 256-512MB of RAM, <i>total</i>. They&#x27;ve got 512MB of just graphics memory. And then on top of that its a GPU from 2010, so this isn&#x27;t &quot;an early 2000s machine&quot; to assess what performance would have been like. Try running on a SiS graphics adapter on-board with 256MB of RAM, and I imagine their results would have been a bit different.<p>And then they&#x27;ve got a 480GB SSD? That&#x27;s an absolute monster of a drive for 2004, practically nothing would have come close to the latency and throughput available on that drive. Even a 32GB SSD in 2004.<p>I always see people remark &quot;wow look how snappy old computers were&quot; when they&#x27;re essentially built like $10,000 machines if you were to actually have those specs at that time.
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1vuio0pswjnm7超过 1 年前
&quot;Most websites do not work with TLS v1.2 anymore.&quot;<p>This has not been true for me. In fact, using a TLS proxy I have tried to force TLSv1.3 for all sites and a large number, possibly even the majority, still use TLSv1.2 and will not accept TLSv1.3.<p>If using old software&#x2F;computers, one approach for dealing with changes in TLS is to use a present-day TLS forward proxy, bound to localhost address or running on a relatively recent computer on the LAN if necessary. This way, one does not need to do any encryption using the old software&#x2F;computer. The proxy converts HTTP to HTTPS.
Joel_Mckay超过 1 年前
If people had integrity DRM&#x2F;Activation would eventually expire with the publisher EOL, and default to an unlocked state for data&#x2F;media&#x2F;format migration. There is nothing worse than getting legacy IT issues elevated to a forensic recovery operation.<p>I think many users agree MS has been on a downward slope since XP and 7. =)
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jdblair超过 1 年前
I seriously expected minis and mainframes to be &quot;old computers,&quot; not PCs from the 90s!
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johnklos超过 1 年前
There&#x27;s a vast gap between what we can run and what we&#x27;re told we should run.<p>Why not run on old hardware, with software that works for you? Because of electricity? As others have pointed out, the environmental cost of manufacture is greater than the difference in performance per energy unit for even systems that are ten years old, and in some cases, older. We&#x27;re literally sending hardware to landfills because companies like Microsoft want to make more money (which, incidentally, is why I think Microsoft is the cause of the Dark Ages of Computing and why Bill Gates will eventually be remembered as someone who caused more waste and held back progress more than anyone in this time period).<p>I run servers, and even though many of the servers I run are using modern hardware (ARM, Apple ARM, AMD Ryzen), I still run a fleet of AMD AM1 Athlon hardware. They serve DNS, web, firewall, SFTP, NAT, email and so on in all sorts of environments. Why? Because to NAT and firewall a gigabit of traffic you don&#x27;t need more than a quad core, 2 GHz CPU, and because using all four cores at 100% still takes less than 20 watts for the whole system.<p>I&#x27;m even building one in to a 1U case right now to go to colo because the colo power budget is 100 watts or less, and I also have four 10 TB drives and a RAID controller to add. But even these 2014 systems, unlike Intel CPUs of the time, can take 32 gigs of ECC memory, so they&#x27;re still very usable.<p>So much software has artificial barriers. You need AVX. You ned AVX2. You need SSE4.2. You need FMA3. But why? Do you REALLY need them, or are you fine running certain software a little slower? After all, you&#x27;re not going to use your 2014 AMD Athlon to transcode to h.265 often.<p>It makes me sad that so much hardware goes to landfill because of completely ridiculous reasons. Add FUD that people share about how just writing zeros over a drive is somehow not good enough, and you have the problem of people literally destroying hardware rather than recycling. It&#x27;s not a good way to run a planet.
layer8超过 1 年前
&gt; The most important thing I learned was that old computers are still fast — and quite usable as a daily driver. User percieved latency has not improved with much faster hardware (throughput). We need to start paying attention here when writing software.
28304283409234超过 1 年前
You know you’re ancient when you find it odd to see a 1GB video card be labelled as “old”.
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baz00超过 1 年前
The key take home for me there is the simple replaceable software and data portability. This is something I am working on at the moment. I built a new windows PC recently and am moving to portable file formats and tools slowly. Nothing goes near it until it is portable. This may end up as a Linux desktop one day but I have 100gb of stuff to sift through.
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rbanffy超过 1 年前
I came here for an analysis of the usability of Apple &#x2F;&#x2F;s and TRS-80&#x27;s, or about doing useful things like text editing on CP&#x2F;M machines.<p>I&#x27;m disappointed.
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kvetching超过 1 年前
The last I used a Windows XP PC, I&#x27;ve found it&#x27;s near impossible to browse the internet. Most websites require a modern browser. Modern browsers don&#x27;t work with XP.
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speedgoose超过 1 年前
&gt; With so much effort, technology and money being invested on the frontend side, why do we still have so many websites that fail to work?<p>Because it’s not worth it. I don’t know many people excited about debugging websites on museum hardware to please the potential one user, that could use a more modern device when it fails anyway. As a hobby why not, but it makes no sense in a professional context.
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obscura超过 1 年前
&gt; The most important thing I learned was that old computers are still fast — and quite usable as a daily driver.<p>I have to point out that your build isn&#x27;t entirely an old computer. Having an SSD makes a major difference. If you were to use an IDE HDD or even an old SATA, you&#x27;d probably think differently.<p>Nevertheless, an interesting exercise.
vkaku超过 1 年前
A report of my experience after trying this: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=34662929">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=34662929</a>
TacticalCoder超过 1 年前
&gt; a Pentium 4 Prescott RK80546PG0881M &gt; ... and running a 32-bit Linux Server<p>Out of curiosity and I don&#x27;t even remember: wouldn&#x27;t that CPU already support 64-bit Linux?
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diarrhea超过 1 年前
I don’t understand how checksums help for HTTP sites. If an attacker controls file delivery such that checksums are desirable, they might very well also control those checksums and their display.<p>At that point one might get those checksums out of band, on a modern device via HTTPS. But if a second device is needed it could also, at the cost of some more effort, be used to just download those assets directly, then transfer locally.
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floppiplopp超过 1 年前
Yes, of course, why not run a system that literally draws hundreds of watts for a fraction of speed of any reasonably modern system? My tiny desktop has been too fast, too silent and uses too little power under full load. Screw that! It barely heats up the room, like that old P4 that I used to have 20 years ago.
hiimsteveee超过 1 年前
not directly related, but I&#x27;ve been thinking about getting an old CRT monitor, launch <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;github.com&#x2F;Swordfish90&#x2F;cool-retro-term">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;github.com&#x2F;Swordfish90&#x2F;cool-retro-term</a> and start working
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MaxBarraclough超过 1 年前
I&#x27;m surprised they went with Windows rather than with one of the ultra-lightweight GNU&#x2F;Linux distros intended for use on antique computers. Puppy Linux, or something similar.<p>Windows XP is presumably full of security vulnerabilities.
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textfiles超过 1 年前
TEXTFILES.COM is http only - your reading material needs are assured.
BirAdam超过 1 年前
On the browser front, mypal will work with most websites. There are some exceptions, but it’ll run the web version of Slack.
jvanderbot超过 1 年前
Why can&#x27;t I get a small mobo for old processors? Everything should have shrunk substantially in the last 30 years.
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throwaway14356超过 1 年前
just dl the youtube videos and use vlc.
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Borg3超过 1 年前
Oh well, he does it for fun. I do it daily, running Win2003 and last PaleMoon browser that works on WinXP. Why? Because I really like XP&#x2F;2003. Sure, I could run Firefox 52 ESR, but it looks like junk and its slow. Palemoon on warm cache starts right away (around 200ms probably).<p>Luicky, most of web sites I care still runnining fine, but dark clouds are on horizon. I cannot belive that rendering &quot;mainstream&quot; web pages eats more RAM than playing first Stalker game!! What the hell happened? Everything gets bloated. UIs are terrible and yet people are using it, just mumbling to themselfs..<p>For shitty webpages I have VM running Linux and using of course latest crappy firefox. But hey, some newest firefox starts to lag terrible when rendered over X server. Thank you Mozilla for putting even more bloat to Firefox..<p>Okey, I vented abit :) Time to play some TRS2004 instead...
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