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Burning money on paid ads for a dev tool – what we've learned

679 点作者 fmerian超过 1 年前

50 条评论

hannofcart超过 1 年前
The article has some helpful points. But as a programmer-SAAS-founder-who-took-over-ads operation, I have some tips on some insights we gleaned doing paid ads (and getting it to be profitable for us):<p>1. Most important tip: is your product ready for ads?<p><pre><code> - Do not do paid ads too early. - Do it once you know that your product is compelling to your target audience. - Ads are likely an expensive way of putting your product in front of an audience. - No matter how good the ad operation, unless your product can convince a user to stay and explore it further, you&#x27;ve just gifted money to Google&#x2F;X&#x2F;Meta whoever. - If you haven&#x27;t already, sometimes when you think you want ads, what you more likely and more urgently need is better SEO optimization </code></pre> 2. The quality of your ad is important, but your on-boarding flows are way more important still.<p><pre><code> - Most of the time, when we debugged why an ad wasn&#x27;t showing conversions, rather than anything inherent to the ad, we found that it was the flows the user encountered _AFTER_ landing on the platform that made the performance suffer. - In some cases, it&#x27;s quite trivial: eg. one of our ads were performing poorly because the conversion criterion was a user login. And the login button ended up _slightly_ below the first &#x27;fold&#x27; or view that a user saw. That tiny scroll we took for granted killed performance. </code></pre> 3. As a founder, learn the basics<p><pre><code> - This is not rocket science, no matter how complex an agency&#x2F;ad expert may make it look. - There are some basic jargon that will be thrown around (&#x27;Target CPA&#x27;, &#x27;CPC&#x27;, &#x27;CTR&#x27;, &#x27;Impression share&#x27;); don&#x27;t be intimidated - Take the time to dig into the details - They are not complicated and are worth your time especially as an early stage startup - Don&#x27;t assume that your &#x27;Ad expert&#x27; or &#x27;Ad agency&#x27; has &#x27;got this&#x27;. - At least early on, monitor the vital stats closely on weekly reviews - Ad agencies especially struggle with understanding nuances of your business. So make sure to help them in early days. </code></pre> 4. Targeting Awareness&#x2F;Consideration&#x2F;Conversion<p><pre><code> - Here I have to politely disagree with the article - Focus on conversion keywords exclusively to begin with! - These will give you low volume traffic, but the quality will likely be much higher - Conversion keywords are also a great way to lock down the basics of your ad operation before blowing money on broad match &#x27;awareness&#x27; keywords - Most importantly, unless your competition is play dirty and advertising on your branded keywords, don&#x27;t do it. - Do NOT advertise on your own branded keywords, at least to begin with. - Most of the audience that used your brand keywords to get to your site are essentially just repeat users using your ad as the quickest navigation link. Yikes! </code></pre> 5. Plug the leaks, set tight spend limits<p><pre><code> - You&#x27;ll find that while your running ads, you are in a somewhat adversarial dance with the ads platform - Some caveats (also mentioned in the article) - Ad reps (mostly) give poor advice, sometimes on borderline bad faith. We quickly learnt to disregard most of what they say. (But be polite, they&#x27;re trying to make a living and they don&#x27;t work for you.) - (Also mentioned in the article) Do not accept any &#x27;auto optimization&#x27; options from the ads platform. They mostly don&#x27;t work. - Set tight limits on spends for EVERYTHING in the beginning. I cannot emphasize this enough. Start small and slowly and incrementally crank up numbers, whether it be spend limits per ad group, target CPA values, CPC values - whatever. Patience is a big virtue here - If you&#x27;re running display ads, there are many more leaks to be plugged: disallow apps if you can (article mentions why), and disallow scammy sites that place ads strategically to get stray clicks. - For display ads, controlling &#x27;placement&#x27; also helps a lot </code></pre> 6. Read up `r&#x2F;PPC` on Reddit<p><pre><code> - Especially the old, well rated posts here. - They&#x27;re a gold mine of war stories from other people who got burnt doing PPC, whose mistakes you can avoid.</code></pre>
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dale_glass超过 1 年前
&gt; This is why we ask all users where they heard about PostHog whenever they sign up or book a demo – it&#x27;s a simple (optional) free text field. Enough of our users say &#x27;ad on Google&#x27; or similar that we know paid ads do actually reach a large chunk of them.<p>You have to be careful with how you word questions.<p>If you ask how I first noticed that something exists, then yes, an ad may well be it because ads are so in your face and hard to avoid. But it almost never is what <i>convinces</i> me to try the thing. In some cases ads actually dissuade me from trying the thing.<p>For instance, I&#x27;m extremely allergic to the word &quot;proprietary&quot;. If that&#x27;s your selling point, then you automatically fall way down in my list. I like my software boring and useful for my ends, not to be locked into somebody else&#x27;s system.<p>Pretty much always what does it for me in the end is positive discussion in technical spaces.
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n_ary超过 1 年前
&gt; we ask all users where they heard about PostHog whenever they sign up or book a demo – it&#x27;s a simple (optional) free text field. Enough of our users say &#x27;ad on Google&#x27; or similar that we know paid ads do actually reach a large chunk of them.<p>Caveat: I always type in &quot;search engine&quot; or &quot;google&quot; despite the fact that I only use Brave&#x2F;Bing&#x2F;DDG. I often find things on random interesting post where the author remarks some benefits that I think applies to me and go checkout those products.<p>When I see such boxes &quot;where did you hear about our product&quot; I just type in &quot;google&quot; or &quot;search engine&quot; because I don&#x27;t exactly have the time to go back through 100 tabs I have open and find the exact one article where I found the product and copy-pasta the url.<p>Nearly all of my colleagues also do this, because it is easier to type &quot;google&quot;, so advice is to take these boxes with a grain of salt. A better metrics could be the referrer field on your site logs.
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wantsanagent超过 1 年前
I was surprised youtube channel sponsorships didn&#x27;t make this list, at least for consideration. I have <i>multiple</i> specialized adblockers installed (as I&#x27;m sure many here do) and so the only ads I encounter are baked into content I&#x27;m otherwise interested in. Currently vpn products and tutorial sites dominate these channels and so I&#x27;d almost <i>welcome</i> something else.
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swores超过 1 年前
Disclaimer: I run a small European marketing agency (though our minimum monthly budget for clients is a few times bigger than discussed &amp; recommended in the article).<p>I think this is a really good article, and I definitely agree both with the suggestion to use an agency (though I suppose I could be biased here!) - there&#x27;s a lot of low-hanging fruit and it&#x27;s definitely possible to do plenty yourself, but unless you really can&#x27;t afford an agency there&#x27;s surely more important things to work on yourselves. While hiring dedicated marketing people makes sense when you&#x27;re a certain size or bigger I&#x27;ve still seen the best arrangement to be as few people internally as possible and being people who are not only good at marketing but more importantly good at managing, and have the bulk of the work handled by an agency. Rather than having to deal in giving whole people specific jobs, an agency can provide small amounts of time as needed from a wide range of experts on different aspects.<p>I also agree that it&#x27;s a good idea to be familiar with with it all too, though, because that way you can actually judge which agencies are worth working with and you can actually work with them, rather than leave them alone and hope they&#x27;re going to do a good job.<p>This article itself is a really great example of what they explained at the beginning - about writing. It&#x27;s not a paid ad, but it got me interested in potentially using their analytics product from having previously not heard of them.
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simonsarris超过 1 年前
Have spent six figures yearly on ads, mostly for reach for the developer-focused diagram library GoJS (<a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;gojs.net" rel="nofollow noreferrer">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;gojs.net</a>)<p>&gt; Each experiment will need ~$500 and 2 weeks<p>I would add a zero if you want serious data. I would also double the timescale. $5,000 over 4 weeks<p>I second the uselessness of Google Display, it might look like conversions numbers are good but they are 100% too good to be true. As soon as you look into them you find the sources are things like &quot;ad from HappyFunBabyTime Android app&quot;. You have to ruthlessly prune daily for months to get anything real, and even then I&#x27;m skeptical of value. For a developer tool with very strict conversion metrics!<p>But I disagree on Google Search:<p>&gt; Good for conversion, bad for awareness.<p>Before we were popular it was <i>excellent</i> for awareness. Post popularity its much more arguable.
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cm2012超过 1 年前
I&#x27;ve spent about $100m on B2B ads in the last 12 years, including to developers. Overall the article is not bad but it&#x27;s missing some things:<p>1) &quot;LinkedIn Good for awareness, bad for conversion.&quot; LI can smash it on conversion. Its expensive so you need a high customer lifetime value. Make a compelling offer and try conversation ads.<p>2) Facebook&#x2F;IG also does work for targeting developers, better than anything else but LI and Search. It&#x27;s funny because there&#x27;s such loud anti-facebook developers out there, but plenty use it anyway.
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joshstrange超过 1 年前
Quora being a good option is incredibly surprising to me. I never click on Quora links as 90% of the time the &quot;answers&quot; are just ads or people who want to pretend they are a bigger deal than they are and know more than they do.<p>I&#x27;m a little surprised podcast ads weren&#x27;t tried, mostly because I&#x27;d love to know how well those do&#x2F;don&#x27;t work out for a tool like this.
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jdwyah超过 1 年前
Also marketing to developers, I&#x27;ve had the most success and enjoyed Reddit the most so far. It feels the most honest. Want to tell a bunch of rails developers about your dynamic logging? You can try to write a useful post that also mentions your product onto r&#x2F;rubyonrails&#x2F; but you&#x27;re run the risk of being downvoted into oblivion with &quot;venordz spam suxxxx&quot;.<p>But it&#x27;s fair game to promote the same post on that subreddit, because that&#x27;s what promotion is supposed to do.<p>That said, you can&#x27;t just post crap ads or you&#x27;ll get snarky comments. As my co-founder said &quot;You can’t just shout nonsense into the void without some accountability.&quot; I think the internet could use more of that.<p>(unpaid advert: we&#x27;re also happily using posthog to track all of this. kudos to them for a great product.)
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somedude895超过 1 年前
&gt; Awareness-based ads are a small part of creating demand. This takes more effort to measure, but is totally possible - see below.<p>Below where? What a tease.<p>Cpms? Amount of impressions? Reach? What about viewability? Brand lift studies won&#x27;t be possible at these budgets either.<p>Do they mean just asking people where they heard about them?
bongobingo1超过 1 年前
&gt; Quora<p>&gt;<p>&gt; Dark horse – good for conversion and awareness.<p>&gt; Quite cheap, good targeting.<p>&gt; Seriously, I don&#x27;t know why more people don&#x27;t use Quora.<p>Amazed to hear that. All my homies hate Quora, I would assume its the same amongst other developer groups.
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throwawysn38超过 1 年前
&gt; Seriously, I don&#x27;t know why more people don&#x27;t use Quora.*<p>It&#x27;s a horrible website full of horrible answers. the UI is terrible and you often end up reading stuff that has nothing to do with the original question you were looking for. I think it&#x27;s understandable that advertisers would avoid it based in their personal experience.<p>Quora was supposed to be the TED of QA. Well, not even TED is the TED of TED anymore so...
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benjaminwootton超过 1 年前
I’ve had my own startups and worked with tens of others. I don’t know anybody who has had good experience or ROI with paid ads.<p>There is something “emperors new clothes” about the whole industry where we all play the game but nobody admits they just aren’t very good. Yet we all keep paying the Google bills thinking it’s something you have to do.
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mcbrienollie超过 1 年前
Day after day, the paid(online) ads is becoming traditional and all the startup owners or new entrepreneurs are diverting themselves into guerilla techniques. Buying Tiktok comments, ProductHunt reviews and more. Rather than spending the money on the algorithmic advertisement, they are trying to build a base where they can create a &quot;base&quot; for their possible customers. I really liked the article, and I think this is showing a couple of crucial signs about the topic I mentioned.
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kyle-rb超过 1 年前
&gt; Twitter<p>&gt; Turn off replies to ads (or have thick skin!)<p>Probably good advice in general, but most brand names don&#x27;t need to worry about unwanted attention as much as &quot;Post Hog&quot;.
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sakerbos超过 1 年前
Relying on an ad to convert a user is a big ask. Another approach could be to offer something high value to your target market in exchange for their email which you could then use to slowly raise awareness and convert users over a series of emails that offer even more value to them. That way you&#x27;re greatly increasing the surface area of interactions with potential users while still genuinely helping them.
asicsp超过 1 年前
Related: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;posthog.com&#x2F;blog&#x2F;dev-marketing-for-startups">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;posthog.com&#x2F;blog&#x2F;dev-marketing-for-startups</a><p>Discussion: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=34998921">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=34998921</a> <i>(254 points | 7 months ago | 72 comments)</i>
rideontime超过 1 年前
Definitely limit your twitter replies if your company is named something like “post hog.” <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;twitter.com&#x2F;search?src=typed_query&amp;q=post%20hog" rel="nofollow noreferrer">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;twitter.com&#x2F;search?src=typed_query&amp;q=post%20hog</a> (possibly NSFW)
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rjakobsson超过 1 年前
PostHog is my favourite startup as of lately. Their company culture seems to really be pushing things to the next level. Very inspiring!
vax425超过 1 年前
Thanks for sharing, mainly because I’ve felt like an idiot for utterly failing at marketing my tool (<a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;HeadlampTest.com" rel="nofollow noreferrer">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;HeadlampTest.com</a>) online to developers &amp; testers. I get great results talking 1:1 in person, but nothing else moves the needle.<p>You’ve articulated the struggle better than anyone, and that’s very comforting for me. I mean, how hard could it be? Answer: super hard!<p>I haven’t tried hiring an offshore agency, but now you’ve got me thinking about it.
dangus超过 1 年前
What about Instagram, Facebook, and TikTok?<p>I’m surprised they haven’t been considered.
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chiefalchemist超过 1 年前
&gt; I&#x27;m a big fan of hiring an agency if you&#x27;re a startup – paying $5-10k&#x2F;mo for a small, outsourced team is way more efficient at this stage than hiring one paid ads specialist.<p>Agency vs hiring? Yes, it makes sense. But there are A LOT of wonky agencies out there. Don&#x27;t rely on their promises or even part performance. And be weary of those fond of vanity metrics and such.<p>Sure, go the agency route, but also do keep them on a shorter leach until they&#x27;ve proven themselves.
zegl超过 1 年前
What are peoples thoughts on sponsoring open source projects as a way to build awareness for dev tools? I think I&#x27;ve seen PostHogs logo in sponsor sections in some READMEs.
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benjaminwootton超过 1 年前
Off topic but I love the Posthog brand, marketing and tone of voice. A real exemplar of how to market a developer tool.
ferrantim超过 1 年前
Just wanted to say thanks for the article. Very well-written and actionable.
troyvit超过 1 年前
&gt; We spend 80%+ on writing.<p>Gotta admit, I read the article but I&#x27;m spending more time looking at the product. The writing brought me in, and now I&#x27;m aware of their product.
gmanis超过 1 年前
Nice article and PostHog is one of my favourite startups to look for especially on the culture side. Your careers page and compensation calculator is a breath of fresh air.
Octoth0rpe超过 1 年前
&gt; [re: bing ads]: Good only if you want to target users at large enterprises where they are forced to use Bing.<p>Is that a thing now? Companies restricting which search engine you&#x27;re allowed to use at work? I&#x27;ve worked in some pretty locked down environments before where switching browsers wasn&#x27;t an option (thankfully less of a thing now), but hadn&#x27;t ever heard of a company restricting search engines.
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zubairq超过 1 年前
I would recommend content marketing myself, addressing a pain point that the problem solves in a blog post.
nico超过 1 年前
It would be very useful for a lot of people who commented on this previous post (<a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=37622702">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=37622702</a>) to read this article<p>Starting with the misconceptions:<p>&gt; Paid ads =&#x2F;= marketing
dielll超过 1 年前
I found it weird that they did not use Meta&#x27;s products(Facebook and Instagram) but used Twitter.<p>To be honest Meta are so good at target advertising. Everytime I open Facebook or Instagram, I must find an advert about something I am interested in.
bolle超过 1 年前
Off topic: I got distracted by the cookie banner which looks like Nina Brink during the IPO of ISP World Online in 2000, the Netherlands. The brain works in mysterious ways.
lionkor超过 1 年前
The last time I&#x27;ve seen an ad was probably on the reddit app before I stopped using it. Not sure ads are the way to get tools out to devs at all.
mavhc超过 1 年前
I learned about them from yesterday&#x27;s HN post about Open source and profitability, and this post. 2 mentions in a row sticks in my mind.<p>Same with GoDot recently, once on Humble Bundle, then again on HN
kylegalbraith超过 1 年前
PostHog is a fantastic product and I really feel like they are becoming the company that is looking to broadly share their learnings&#x2F;experience with others.
LoganDark超过 1 年前
Hah, this site was in the filter list for my firewall.
d--b超过 1 年前
Ok, so that page itself is an ad for PostHog. Sigh.
digitcatphd超过 1 年前
IMHO anything B2B it’s best to start with email and cold outreach. This tends to get feedback quickly and is very cheap.
WalterBright超过 1 年前
Back in the 80&#x27;s, full page ads in computer magazines worked great. The internet utterly destroyed that.
willsmith72超过 1 年前
&gt; Each experiment will need ~$500<p>Woah, do you really need to spend this much on 1 experiment to get quality data? That kinda sucks
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dnlbtlr超过 1 年前
Anyone have good experiences advertising with Stackoverflow?
markcollin超过 1 年前
having someone on the founding team who has a sizable network on social media is an unfair advantage ex: rauchg-nextjs sahil-gumroad and so on.
datavirtue超过 1 年前
That mascot&#x2F;logo is adorable. I just want to feed it!!
aldousd666超过 1 年前
This page is down, I can&#x27;t read the article.
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niknikson超过 1 年前
Really appreciate this article and wanted to add a few of my thoughts. I’ve been an inhouse marketer in the Dev Tool space for 2 different SDK companies over the last 5 years. The majority of my focus has been on paid &#x2F; organic search channels (primarily google) because these two channels had the largest impact in the number of leads we generate.<p>The first thing I wanted to touch on is the idea that developers hate marketing - this is 100% accurate and I would recommend anyone doing marketing in the dev tool space to have this mindset.<p>For me the way I’ve dealt with this concept is to try to reframe what my objective is as a marketer. Fundamentally the SDK’s I’ve worked for do deliver value to a developer by helping them develop tools faster and in a more polished fashion. For some developers this is super useful and for others it will never be an option. For obvious reasons I focus on the developers that would see value in this and do everything in my power to make them aware that our solution exists.<p>My approach to developer marketing:<p>- Try to be direct as possible in how I communicate the features &#x2F; capabilities &#x2F; benefits while avoiding marketese &#x2F; jargon etc<p>- I have a philosophy that if you provide value without any strings you benefit in the long run. That’s why I’ve always opposed gated content or even gating trials if possible.<p>- Developer experience is fundamental to the success of dev tools business. In my organization marketing takes an active role in dev experience - for example we helped reorganize documentation to make it more accessible and easier to navigate for our users. This had a dramatic impact in product adoption.<p>- Having a good demo should be the cornerstone of your marketing activities. It’s how developers see what you can do and gives your sales team the tools to sell your product effectively.<p>- Make use of things like live demos so developers can anonymously learn and observe your team without directly talking to a sales representative.<p>Some of the things I disagree with in the article.<p>Google display never works:<p>- This is not always the case. For obvious reasons retargeting is especially disliked in the developer world but in some cases it works. For me I’ll run a Google display campaign that targets any user that’s downloaded our SDK. For these users I focus on delivery display ads that help them integrate the product more effectively. For example I will create ads for these users that promote free trial support to help them build their POC. Typically marketing is not incentivized to drive an increase in support calls but if a user is having trouble building a POC then this is the ideal candidate for us to send to support.<p>- This also works for marketing pages - users who land on a marketing page will see ads for ungated content like “Buy vs Build” etc<p>The missing link between paid and organic traffic<p>Something that seems to be consistently overlooked is how the effort and money you spend on paid channels should help you make better decisions on increasing organic traffic. This is sometimes the main downside with hiring an agency - they might be really good on managing the paid side but don’t provide input on how you can use this to increase organic channels. For example:<p>- Identify which paid keywords drive conversions and use this data to prioritize your organic channels.<p>- Use the number of search impressions for your keywords to accurately measure demand for a service<p>- Use A&#x2F;B testing to improve CTR in organic search. For example we had a really good blog article that did not have a great title. I ran a display campaign with different titles for this blog article. After about a month there was a clear winner and we renamed the blog article resulting in the ranking and traffic going up for the article.<p>Paid search and SEO do increase brand awareness<p>We primarily focused on paid search and SEO which resulted in a significant increase in the total number of users that searched for a brand year-over-year. The number of people searching for your brand is one of the best ways for you to measure brand awareness.<p>With all this said I do believe that ultimately any success you have marketing to developers manifests from your intentions. I’ve always believed that my intention as a marketer was to “help developers” by providing them tools to make their lives easier. I think this intention is mirrored in the work I do and has been a part of the reason we’ve been successful.
iamben超过 1 年前
The Twitter &#x27;thick skin&#x27; part made me laugh.<p>A past startup had the same experience with Reddit ads. The initial replies were so negative (&quot;I could do this 3x cheaper myself&quot; etc), and often negative for the sake of negativity. It took a little time, but we replied to most of them with gentle words along the lines of &quot;thank you for your thoughts and comments; we&#x27;re a small business trying to do things ethically; getting it from us saves you the time&#x2F;cost of leaving the house and we know how valuable your time is&quot; - and it actually ended up quite a decent ad.<p>People just love to hate, especially when there&#x27;s no human face to something. Or, I think in the case of places&#x2F;networks where the community is tight and niche, if you&#x27;re going to interject your product you&#x27;d better have enough of an understanding to answer as if you belong&#x2F;have been a silent part of it all along.<p>Complete aside - I&#x27;m glad I&#x27;ve never had to market to devs, haha.
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brettermeier超过 1 年前
While I try reading this, the site loads something and scrolls to the top of the page, even on 2. try. Who designed this? This page sucks.
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callalex超过 1 年前
This company must have done something totally awful, the whole domain is automatically blocked by my DNS filters…<p>Ah, its entire point is to stalk unwitting users. I guess my filter was correct!
daanlo超过 1 年前
Great article!
ransom1538超过 1 年前
Take a lawn sign. Paint it white and black. In it, just put your domain and your uri. iamaretardbuyingads.com&#x2F;test1 &lt;- just put this in your lawn sign. Test a lawn sign vs 2k a month google budget. WELL, I have tried this. The lawn sign wins.