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How Games Used to Look: Why Retro Gaming on a CRT Looks Different [video]

171 点作者 MrJagil超过 1 年前

20 条评论

tvst超过 1 年前
Great video, except for a few wrong details that really get to me...<p>- The pixels in an LCD aren&#x27;t little light bulbs. They are little lamp shades. (The pixels in an OLED display <i>are</i> little light bulbs though)<p>- A CRT doesn&#x27;t shoot light. It shoots electrons.<p>- The video makes it seem like pixels in an LCD update all at once. Not true! They&#x27;re scanned.<p>- The video makes it seems that there&#x27;s no temporal bleeding on CRTs. This sounds unlikely to me...<p>- The main difference in image quality between coaxial and composite inputs is not that coaxial needs to stuff audio and video together. It&#x27;s that in coaxial the signal is shifted to a carrier frequency as if it came from an antenna (usually channel 3 or 4) so the decoder needs to bring it down to the frequency it uses internally (called the intermediate frequency) before sending it to the screen. This degrades the signal.
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loveparade超过 1 年前
Very cool! But what&#x27;s even more interesting to me is the effect of our brain filling in the missing details that are now explicitly rendered in modern games.<p>I think I felt more immersed in retro games because my brain knew that it&#x27;s supposed to fill in all these details. With modern games it&#x27;s close to realistic, but not quite, and my brain doesn&#x27;t even try to fill in what&#x27;s missing. It&#x27;s also more difficult to concentrate on the gameplay when all details are rendered on screen.<p>I&#x27;m also constantly surprised how little graphics matter for an enjoyable experience. A game with amazing graphics blows my mind for 15 minutes. But then I&#x27;m used it and I stop caring about visuals altogether, unless they get in my way.
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tomxor超过 1 年前
Shameless plug, animation trying to illustrate a Trinitron aperture grille scanline effect in 140 js chars:<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.dwitter.net&#x2F;d&#x2F;12335" rel="nofollow noreferrer">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.dwitter.net&#x2F;d&#x2F;12335</a><p>Although like the author I feel like the Trinitrons don&#x27;t look so good. Although this is entirely subjective, I&#x27;m pretty sure I grew up on playing games on a &quot;crappy&quot; old shadow mask TV where the colours seem to bleed together better because of the subpixel arrangement that I think makes it blend on the Y axis as well as the X axis.<p>[edit]<p>Hah, found my old TV&#x2F;monitor: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.youtube.com&#x2F;watch?v=M7S_WLrvHW8">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.youtube.com&#x2F;watch?v=M7S_WLrvHW8</a> Can&#x27;t figure out if it&#x27;s a shadow mask or not though.
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winstonrc超过 1 年前
I wrote a brief article discussing my thoughts on playing 240p games on a CRT compared to a modern display[0]. It’s hard to perfectly convey, but the picture really does look exceptional and so much better than on a modern display and is something worth seeing in person.<p>The MiSTer FPGA does an excellent job with filters to recreate that experience but isn’t 100% there yet. The Analogue Pocket also does a great job recreating the look of GB, GBC, and GBA games. I’m very impressed by the people that have developed these filters and am optimistic about their implementation in the future. I’m not always going to have a CRT, so filters are the next best thing to capturing the original look.<p>[0] <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.winstoncooke.com&#x2F;blog&#x2F;2023-08-26-appreciating-240p" rel="nofollow noreferrer">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.winstoncooke.com&#x2F;blog&#x2F;2023-08-26-appreciating-24...</a>
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PostOnce超过 1 年前
High-DPI OLEDs and CRT shaders are the answer for preservation, I think. Shaders can cover a hell of a lot of the nuance. Phosphor persistence (fade-out time?), light bleeding over into the next uh... thingie. We have the technology :)<p>the shaders may not be perfect yet, but it makes me happy that we have the option.
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dbttdft超过 1 年前
After researching this I believe the main je ne sais quoi of old console games on CRT in order of importance is vsync, lack of motion blur due to CRT, low black level (and thus high contrast that LCD cannot begin to compare to), and then phosphor layout.<p>&gt;LCD is comprised of tiny light bulbs: LEDs<p>No, it&#x27;s comprised of liquid crystal (LC) units, each of which effectively control how much of the backlight (which may be LCD or CCFL) passes through itself and thus how bright that pixel is. Although I can see why you would think this with the introduction of &quot;LED Monitors&quot; around 2010, which is totally not intentional misrepresentation from the marketers.<p>&gt;This is <i>way slower</i> than a CRT<p>LEDs are fast but LCs are indeed slow.<p>&gt;Even if you could turn it on and off really fast there&#x27;s a little bit of a fade that&#x27;s what they call grey to grey<p>Smearing is not noticable in LCDs made after the early 2000s. There is still motion blue but that&#x27;s due to no black frame insertion.<p>&gt;Some pixels in the LCD if they are a similar color will not even change<p>This is not a known thing, it&#x27;s made up. That would require storing a frame and anaylzing it against the previous frame although I wouldn&#x27;t put that above them (and they do this for other reasons once in a while). This sounds like a corruption of spatial&#x2F;temporal dithering which actually <i>is</i> a thing in most or at least half of LCDs.<p>&gt;It doesn&#x27;t draw the entire thing at once like on an LCD<p>LCDs don&#x27;t draw all at once, they scan out just like CRTs (some draw all at once but it&#x27;s pointless and adds (some) input lag).<p>&gt;The camera is 30 fps and the tv is 30 fps and somehow you see the band go across the screen<p>It&#x27;s because the camera has to be synchronized with the TV and have the exposure set up a certain way otherwise it will capture the screen, e.g., half way through the scanout of a frame. Although I&#x27;m not sure you can find any CRT or LCD that can go down to 30Hz.
rwmj超过 1 年前
This channel has a bunch of videos about how CRTs handle retro video games: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.youtube.com&#x2F;@mylifeingaming">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.youtube.com&#x2F;@mylifeingaming</a><p>Unfortunately youtube seems to have broken the ability to search only within a channel, so I can&#x27;t find the exact one I&#x27;m thinking about.<p>Edit: This one: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.youtube.com&#x2F;watch?v=RAi8AVj9GV8">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.youtube.com&#x2F;watch?v=RAi8AVj9GV8</a>
Dwedit超过 1 年前
This video is making so many mistakes. From claiming that LCDs use &quot;a separate light bulb for each pixel&quot; to claiming that retro games &quot;run at 30FPS&quot;.
zokier超过 1 年前
Of course this is well-known in retrogaming&#x2F;emulation community, which is why there is a wealth of really good CRT shaders out there
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parski超过 1 年前
The most crucial difference (in my opinion) between sample-and-hold displays and a CRT is the motion resolution. Motion just looks so much better on a CRT. Lately this has been remedied with features like black frame insertion, high refresh rates and technologies like ULMB 2. Also, using HDR on capable displays we can replicate the glow of the phosphor with much greater accuracy. I can&#x27;t wait to get my hands on the RetroTink 4K and play around with BFI and HDR along with the filters after the perfect upscale to 2160p.
TacticalCoder超过 1 年前
Emulation for preservation is a bit weird but why not. Now... CRTs are still built and sold <i>today</i> and you can also buy brand new CRT controller boards from China. Not &quot;new old stock&quot; but brand new stuff, still built today.<p>For anyone who has the room for it, just go buy an actual arcade cab with a CRT in it. Then put a Raspberry Pi with a &quot;Pi2JAMMA&quot; (not affiliated with these guys, but I like it) connector in it. You&#x27;ll have thousands of games and it&#x27;s basically the real thing (short of very specific cases like the game Tempest that was directly controlling the electron beam).<p>I&#x27;m a happy camper with <i>one</i> vintage arcade cab, which I own since years. A friend of mine saw it and went berzerk: he now has six arcade cabs.<p>If I wanted to be facetious I&#x27;d say it&#x27;s arguably <i>less</i> work to buy a vintage arcade cab with an actual CRT and put a RPi + Pi2JAMMA adapter in it then try to get a shader working on a modern screen.<p>If you want the real arcade feeling you need proper arcade joysticks anyway: at that point we&#x27;re probably already talking about a cab (you could have just the joysticks controller, but it&#x27;s not as good as the joystick in an arcade cab).<p>So if you&#x27;ve got a cab, you may as well go with a real one (with a CRT that is) and an adapter that&#x27;ll drive the CRT (like the Pi2JAMMA one).<p>As a bonus you&#x27;ll also be able to put real vintage PCBs in your cab.
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Jeema101超过 1 年前
I was at a retro barcade not too long ago and came across an old Centipede machine.<p>Maybe this machine just had a really good CRT in it, but the level of intense brightness against the pitch black background was honestly sort of mesmerizing. I had forgotten just how good CRTs were in that regard.<p>(A little bit off-topic from what the guy in the video is discussing, but I thought it&#x27;s worth mentioning since it could be another reason why people have such fond memories of CRT gaming.)
rikthevik超过 1 年前
I&#x27;ve been following @MrmoTarius on twitter for a while and I&#x27;m just loving their work. This CRT filter is just wonderful.<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;mrmotarius.itch.io&#x2F;mrmocrt" rel="nofollow noreferrer">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;mrmotarius.itch.io&#x2F;mrmocrt</a><p>(The scuffed paper and cross-stitch filters are very good too.)
ddingus超过 1 年前
CRT displays are still being made. These are small for specialized uses. They are still being refurbished too.<p>To me, a good plasma display offers a lot of what people like about the CRT. Phosphorus glowing in tubes are fast and high contrast. And maybe the micro-LED displays will be similar. Pixels lighting up, are still nicer than trying to block always on bright light.<p>Those things said, people like the CRT.<p>One mounted in a cabinet, for example, will deliver a really compelling experience! About the only thing I can see competing is a laser projection of some kind.<p>Really high refresh, interlaced CRT rasters have a look too. So does higher refresh rate, progressive scanned motion.<p>Maybe this ends up like vinyl. We have not lost the tech yet. Maybe there will be a return like we have seen for vinyl.<p>And here is an idea for someone:<p>Make the shadow mask on glass and enclose it in a vacuum, but not big like we need for an electron gun. Just big enough to enclose the phosphor.<p>Then, from the rear, excite the phosphor with lasers. Or even a few groups of them to get a full, high speed raster made up of multiple smaller ones all running in parallel. Think 4 rectangular displays stacked together with their longer edges touching.<p>Doing that keeps the deflection angle down.<p>And the lasers can be enclosed. But it won&#x27;t be necessary to pull a high vacuum for the whole thing. Just the thin, front, phosphor portion. And that could be replaced when it gets tired, and or when burned in, or scratched up.<p>Registration becomes a software problem.<p>Good displays have .01x inch phosphor dot pitches. Violet light is orders better at 0.000015 inches. Light just outside visible would work great.<p>The phosphor glass assembly could be recycled or refurbished and relaxed vacuum requirements means avoiding toxic glass.<p>I bet a display like that would deliver the CRT experience and then some.<p>Someone go make the thing. I want one.<p>Or, maybe I hit the lottery! Then I will make my own.
honkycat超过 1 年前
IMO the main thing is the bleed between &quot;pixels&quot; in retro games.<p>I recently bought a &quot;Metal Slug&quot; art book, and was AGHAST that all of the assets in the art-book were obvious screen caps from an emulator. The assets looked like shit, and I considered the book lazy and crappy because of this.<p>The game assets were designed on CRT screens with the bleed as part of the aesthetic.<p>It is amazing to see the difference between assets on a CRT screen vs an LCD screen with no shaders. Do some basic googling if you are interested, it is crazy how much better a low-poly model, or illustration looks. Especially on stuff like the classic King of Fighter and Street Fighter games.
hx8超过 1 年前
I play a lot of retro games in the 16bit and 32bit era. I usually play 120hrs&#x2F;month or more most of which is on original hardware and not emulators. I do not use CRTs because I&#x27;ve had bad luck maintaining the hardware. It&#x27;s hard to find good equipment, it&#x27;s expensive to ship if you find something, and it&#x27;s hard to get it serviced.<p>I often wonder if there is room for a single CRT manufacturer in the marketplace. I would switch to CRT if I could buy new, have a warranty, and be reasonably assured I can find a replacement easily if it fails.
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Yeul超过 1 年前
Videogames as a medium are entirely reliant on technology. There are many games which were let down by the shitty state of it.<p>Yes I can play them as teenagers used to back in the day: cheap tiny Panasonic CRT and terrible English voice acting. I&#x27;m sure for some people that gives them a warm fuzzy nostalgic feeling.<p>But there&#x27;s a reason why remakes and remasters are popular.
jcrites超过 1 年前
Are there any emulators that try to account for this?<p>(I did a brief search and came across graphics libraries and discussions about shaders, but didn&#x27;t find anything easily downloadable...)
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yieldcrv超过 1 年前
What are the efforts to emulate TV CRTs from the early 90s?<p>I want a uniform way to include them in my art<p>Whether its a CSS transformation or filter for a website<p>Or an action in photoshop<p>Or a webgpu thing<p>Or a standalone emulator
jl6超过 1 年前
You know how food tastes better when you’re hungry? That’s the element of nostalgia that is still unaccounted for in the emulation&#x2F;preservation scene.<p>Most of us who grew up playing games were <i>hungry</i> for it - our parents allowed us a fairly limited supply of games, on their budget and schedule, and they probably put limits on when and how long we could play them for, right? Maybe we had to travel to a friend’s house because they were the only one in the neighborhood with a particular game or console. Furthermore, entertainment options in general were limited, and the games offered a genuine novelty that you couldn’t get anywhere else - even the crappy ones. Thus we savored every opportunity to play, and the satisfaction of that hunger is what our nostalgic memories are built on.<p>Contrast to today, where you can download NES.zip and possess literally every game on that platform, almost instantly. As an adult, you can play as much as you like. But you probably don’t even want to play that much because you’ve also got a universe of streaming TV and movies and media and a back catalog of AAA-games a mile long and VR and gadgets and social media and a million other entertainment options, distractions and responsibilities. We’re not hungry at all - we’re obese from media and stuffed to the gills with it.
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