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Roughly 80% of Grades Given at Harvard Are in the 'A' Range

94 点作者 g42gregory超过 1 年前

27 条评论

yCombLinks超过 1 年前
I'm near finishing my undergrad at Harvard extension school. Many of the courses (especially in CS) are taught alongside traditional Harvard students. Same assignments / tests / lectures, they just have to be physically in the lecture hall. The work is rigorous, and the grading is usually harder than the state school I attended long ago. (I have taken a few non-math / non-CS courses that were easy A's). Maybe grades have inflated, but overall the students are really good. Grading really harshly just to "separate the top" or whatever doesn't make sense. They all mastered the material in "Introduction to Computer Science" in the semester.
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hiAndrewQuinn超过 1 年前
This isn&#x27;t surprising. The important selection filter is entirely in getting into Harvard. It&#x27;s an excellent signal for some critical amount of intelligence, conscientiousness, and conformity, where each one can be traded off for some of the others - but only up to a point.<p>What would be really interesting is if the same effects happen at top universities in the East Asian countries. I would be fascinated to know why the divergence if we found that only 20% of students at, say, Seoul National University got top marks in their classes.
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crazygringo超过 1 年前
This statistic is useless without any comparison to other schools.<p>Maybe this is the same as the average across all of the top 20 schools?<p>It also raises an interesting question: <i>should</i> it be harder to get an A in a class at Harvard than at e.g. a third-tier school? Because the answer to that is not obviously yes.<p>E.g. if you take Calculus 101 and master it to some level of proficiency that is an A- at some third-tier school, should you also get an A- in Calc 101 at Harvard, or should that merely be a C there? (And if you think it should be a C, then why? Isn&#x27;t calculus just calculus? Either you master the material or you don&#x27;t. Why should you be graded differently depending on <i>where</i> you learn it?)<p>Because if you think grades should reflect some kind of absolute level of proficiency, then it&#x27;s not surprising at all that 80% of grades at Harvard would be in the &#x27;A&#x27; range, considering how many straight-A applicants Harvard accepts in the first place.
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lefstathiou超过 1 年前
My brother graduated from MIT 20 years ago and I recall one summer when I stayed there one of his fraternity brothers quipping “the fastest way to get a girl in Boston is to tell her you go to Harvard, and the fastest way to lose her is to tell her you go to MIT, they don’t want nerds”. Amazing how things have changed but even then it was basically an accepted truth that Harvard massively inflated grades. At the time I was told perfect GPAs were basically unheard of at MIT (back then least).<p>Grade inflation is real and I think it leads to significant unintended consequences. I do find myself flip flopping however on whether there should be grades at all. If you’ve read zen and the art of motorcycle maintenance, you’ll recall there is a powerful case made to eliminate grades at the college level. I still lean toward having them currently.
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verdverm超过 1 年前
How does the student performance compare to other institutions? If most students learn the material, then they deserve a good mark.<p>Having taught three very different classes, I can tell you there is a bell curve to the per class bell curve. Undergrad intro was a bell curve, CS Grad remediation was tragic, mixed ML was mostly A&#x27;s, they were very engaged students
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austinl超过 1 年前
There&#x27;s been a general trend of grade inflation in U.S. universities, accelerating in the 1960s (during the Vietnam war), and then again in the 1990s [0]. In some sense, this might be because the role of the student shifted more towards that of a consumer purchasing a product.<p>Harvard average GPA was a 3.0 in 1967, now it&#x27;s a 3.45 [1].<p>There are some universities that have tried to actively prevent inflation (e.g. Purdue with a 2.73 average in 1986 to 3.09 in 2012 [2]).<p>[0] <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.gradeinflation.com" rel="nofollow noreferrer">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.gradeinflation.com</a> [1] <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.gradeinflation.com&#x2F;Harvard.html" rel="nofollow noreferrer">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.gradeinflation.com&#x2F;Harvard.html</a> [2] <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.gradeinflation.com&#x2F;Purdue.html" rel="nofollow noreferrer">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.gradeinflation.com&#x2F;Purdue.html</a>
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karmakaze超过 1 年前
Why does this even matter? In the end as long as you pass the required courses, you&#x27;ll get a degree. Who checks grades? Most don&#x27;t even check that a claim of degree is true. The only loss would be that of the student not actually the learning material due to lenient grading.<p>Q: What do you call a doctor who graduated at the bottom of their class? A: &quot;Doctor&quot;
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currymj超过 1 年前
i think it&#x27;s fine if universities grade on whatever scale they want, or none, and it&#x27;s not clear who is hurt by this.<p>I guess if you have to hire Harvard new grads, want to base your decision on their academic performance, and would prefer more fine-grained rankings of performance, this is not in your interest.<p>The very top students may also wish they had more chance to distinguish themselves. However the way it seems to work in many schools with grade inflation is that it&#x27;s easy to get an A, but still pretty hard to get an A+, so there&#x27;s still some opportunity here.<p>I&#x27;d also add that at Princeton, attempts to combat grade inflation were very unsuccessful and resulted in strange unintended consequences, like students carefully strategizing which sections of courses to take to avoid those believed to have heavy competition.
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pbj1968超过 1 年前
“It is not clear how employers would be informed of the narrative-based performance of students in school.”<p>Is an employer demanding to see your GPA such a common thing? I’ve seen it used as a weed out for things like internships but even they will bend the rules if you actually talk to someone behind the curtain.
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thelastgallon超过 1 年前
According to Liz Elting, graduates of the Ivy League had literally peaked in school. They lacked the hunger and ambition she needed in her company.<p>The case against hiring people from Ivy League schools: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;bigthink.com&#x2F;business&#x2F;case-against-hiring-ivy-league-schools&#x2F;" rel="nofollow noreferrer">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;bigthink.com&#x2F;business&#x2F;case-against-hiring-ivy-league...</a>
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polygamous_bat超过 1 年前
It always surprises me how some people are shocked a plot of P(student learned the class material well) is starkly different from P(student learned the class material well | student was hard-working enough to secure admission through one of the most selective* processes).<p>* Minus the legacies and the atheletic admissions I guess.
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VirusNewbie超过 1 年前
I don&#x27;t know anyone in tech who is impressed with traditional IVY schools. It&#x27;s not a negative signal, but I don&#x27;t really think they have rigorous CS or EE programs.<p>MIT, Stanford, and CMU do stick out to me as a positive signal but I could care less about anything else, including Harvard.
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oldbbsnickname超过 1 年前
Grade inflation is a many decades-old, settled topic. It&#x27;s mostly a stochastic process of opportunity rather than a grand conspiracy. Hell, Stanford expressly forbids exam proctors in its university&#x27;s charter. But what dull woodshed implement believes certain political figures or 50%+ of legacy admissions did their own homework or took their own tests? Hell, one of my ex gf&#x27;s sold homework to legacy rubes because she was an ultra-proficient and diligent with discretion and flexible, creative ethics.<p>If a prospective student wanted a masochistic, meritocratic challenge (in undergrad), they should consider IIT[0] (and JEE) or a lesser-known US public research university in the top 50-100 range striving to increase its ranking without hiking tuition by focusing on fundamentals. They&#x27;re ambivalent if any particular student passes or fails, and have less motivation to pad grading. As a first project for an intro network course in 2001, we had to write a forking, forward caching HTTP&#x2F;1.0 proxy in *nix&#x2F;POSIX C89.<p>0. <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;iitsystem.ac.in" rel="nofollow noreferrer">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;iitsystem.ac.in</a>
vincent-manis超过 1 年前
When I was a grad student (back in the Old Stone Age), the minimum passing grade in graduate courses was an A. (This was based upon the theory that we were cherry-picked from the set of applicants.) This may be Harvard&#x27;s premise (the people I&#x27;ve known who went to Harvard were generally outstanding), or maybe not. I would be interested in seeing the correlation between legacy students (the ones who got in because a parent attended) and grades.<p>In 30 years of teaching first- and second-year computer science courses, I always saw a bimodal distribution, with one mode around a C and the second at a B+&#x2F;A- level. (In first year, it often was trimodal, with the third mode at an F-, students who gave up early in the course and didn&#x27;t withdraw). I would be astonished if there were not something like that going on in Harvard&#x27;s first year CS.<p>Mr Turley quotes William F Buckley on preferring the first 400 names in the Boston phone book to Harvard faculty. I would prefer to listen to a conspiracy theorist explaining why the lepton samurai of Jupiter were about to invade the earth than to listen to Mr Buckley, even if he were still alive.
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highfrequency超过 1 年前
Probably a positive trend if college students end up worrying less about their GPA and spending more time learning things they are interested in &#x2F; trying out different careers &#x2F; making friends and memories.<p>From my experience, college students worry enough about grades without forcing the curve to be harsher than it currently is.
itslennysfault超过 1 年前
That&#x27;s been the running joke an University of Chicago forever. If I wanted an A I would&#x27;ve gone to Harvard.
bell-cot超过 1 年前
Quip: With how much they&#x27;re paying in tuition, don&#x27;t they all deserve an &#x27;A+&#x27;?
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HumblyTossed超过 1 年前
What <i>should</i> the average be? A &#x27;C&#x27;? I doubt it. Let&#x27;s assume most of the people at Harvard <i>wanted</i> to be there. Wouldn&#x27;t they work hard to <i>get</i> there and thus once there do their best to succeed?
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nunez超过 1 年前
Interestingly this is also a problem at the (expensive) private schools that feed students into these elite colleges.<p>You can give out super hard exams and make them sweat&#x2F;cry&#x2F;worry, but you&#x27;ll be given tons of shit if you actually fail them, especially if their parents are large donors. Only exceptions here are for students that failed so badly they&#x27;re no way they can pass, even if you apply a crazy curve on top.<p>now many (most?) of those students are extremely talented and deserve the grades they get, but it&#x27;s still a bullshit system that encourages failing upwards.
naveen99超过 1 年前
90% of employees in a 10% stack ranking environment get an “A”. USMLE has a 90+ % pass rate. 1% of the population dies every year. unemployment + inflation is between 5 and 15%, a state of permanent misery index range. in the steady state, it’s enough creative destruction.
fluxem超过 1 年前
To get to Harvard, you need to be a valedictorian or close to that. And not every valedictorian gets to go to to Harvard. It’s not a surprise then that Harvard is full of overachievers with straight A’s.
uslic001超过 1 年前
Same thing at Duke back in the 1990&#x27;s. The professors say you paid a lot of money to attend so you should get A&#x27;s.
Aeolun超过 1 年前
Shouldn’t you want a bigger&#x2F;more relevant range? They are already in Harvard, now I want to see who is any good at Harvard level.
fn-mote超过 1 年前
The information is about the 2020-2021 grades, which is to say the height of Covid in the US. I would not generalize.
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elashri超过 1 年前
This is my personal experience with the grading systems and how I find (personal opinion) assigning grades as a very hard problem.<p>I did my undergrad outside the US but in a university that follows American system. My department culture was that you don&#x27;t expect curves and grades are based on what you get. So if we are all getting F then that is F for all people. No one passes a course just for the sake of passing. While these extreme cases never happened (at least when I was there). if it happens then this tells about quality of the course itself not only students effort and performance.<p>I took a general relativity class during my undergrad. I like this field and topic. And while I am currently doing particle physics but I always liked GR. I was doing well regarding the topics but never got good grades. I struggled with its exams in particular with this particular professor. I got C although I managed not only to have a good grasp of the subject but went so far as to work on specific problem and expanded it into a paper, participated in a conference and got it published later into a peer-reviewed Journal.<p>While when I moved for a graduate school is the US. Things is very different. Many of the undergraduate I teach were always expecting high grades anyway. curving is very much the norm and the negotiations is about how much to curve. The normal distribution of the grades is a religious belief to some people in the universities administration. And I understand it is hard to assist professors teaching and some use this as an evaluation metric but it I feel like it doesn&#x27;t addressa core thing. Some people will pass even with high grades and they did not get the core of the subject. This is not about they deserve more than me or not. There is a fundamental question of are we grading on effort to learn or actually what people learned. The grading criteria will differ much based on our answer to this.<p>In your profession effort to learn new thing is the most important thing. But with the degrees that assumes that you are ready if you have it is that the expectation or your effort and ability to learn. But how can wr measure that specially on scale.<p>During my graduate courses I took a QFT class taught by condensed matter physicist and was focused on his area of research. I wasn&#x27;t interested and it was very tough. I don&#x27;t feel I understood most of the things and I struggled to the point I did not submit the final exam (take home). And to my surprise I got an A because I was the highest grade in my class (we were few anyway). I learned a lot of QFT later on my own but I am giving this example on two completely different personal experiences that hopefully deliver the idea.<p>It is hard to design a grading system on a scale that will try to measure different things. and the universities marketing for degrees is doing much harm ( for financial reasons). And also graduate schools and companies don&#x27;t usually want or sometimes doesn&#x27;t have resources to look into details about applicants institutions even if they have information about what their grading works. Hell I don&#x27;t even think it is possible to have one unified system per university (Is it even good thing to do?).
bradwschiller超过 1 年前
Grade inflation is an obvious problem. It does a disservice to students, making them believe they are exceptional at something they are actually mediocre at. Some rants related to this and how awful grade inflation is for students and the world.<p>AP score data is especially indicative of this. In AP classes, most high school students earn As from their teachers (I estimate around ~60%). Yet, when you look at the AP scores, few get 5s on exams (the equivalent of an A). For example, 5-10% get 5&#x27;s on AP English and Science-related exams. Scores are a bit higher on Social Sciences (10-15% 5s) and math&#x2F;CS (~25%). But only ~50% of students even get above a 3 on the exam (the equivalent of a C). So there are people who essentially get a D by the standard (a 2) that are getting an A in their high school class.<p>I could go on with countless examples of how students aren&#x27;t nearly as capable as their grades would indicate. At McKinsey, I interviewed over 100 people from top schools with high GPAs. Many couldn&#x27;t solve simple math problems when given the problem in the context of a real-world case.<p>At out top institutions with our top students, we should be pushing them extremely hard and measuring them against a higher bar. I find it disappointing that they are being measured against the same (or even a lower bar) than students at other institutions. It&#x27;s so bad that it seems clear that a Harvard Education isn&#x27;t any better than a Penn State, Nebraska, or even UC Riverside education. The only difference is having the Harvard brand and network. It&#x27;s an embarrassment. And it&#x27;s not just a problem at Harvard. It&#x27;s a problem at every top institution.<p>Grade-motivated students don&#x27;t put in the extra work when little effort still earns them As. One example stands out. I run an edtech company, and in our early days, we ran an experiment at doesmyessaysuck.com. You could submit your essay, get a score, and 2 pieces of feedback on how to improve the content and structure of your writing. We did about a thousand essays before abandoning it. I always think about one student. He submitted an essay we generously gave a C (it was really bad). It was incoherent, poorly structure, didn&#x27;t answer the prompt, and lacked sound logical reasoning. He responded we were wrong because he had gotten a 93% on it.<p>Also – <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.gradeinflation.com&#x2F;" rel="nofollow noreferrer">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.gradeinflation.com&#x2F;</a> is a good read. It&#x27;s out-of-date data. But it proves the point even further than this article.<p>Note: There is some research out there that claims grade inflation is false and that more students actually have learned more than in previous years (i.e., the academic bar hasn&#x27;t changed, but more students are above it). However, this research is unconvincing (and ripe with errors). There&#x27;s essentially been zero improvement (and even a decline) in basic math and literacy skills over the past couple of decades (as measured by standardized tests). Yet grades are much higher. And high school and college graduation rates are up by about 10 percentage points since the early 2000s. As it turns out, when your only measure of success is graduation rate, you end up with more graduates – even if those graduates don&#x27;t have any skills.
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rainbowzootsuit超过 1 年前
At Harvard, &quot;A&quot; is for &quot;Average.&quot;