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Is this radical redesign of GIMP possible now?

227 点作者 sacrosanct超过 1 年前

39 条评论

542458超过 1 年前
Universal search in UI is cool, and I’m all for it, but it shouldn’t be the only&#x2F;primary way of accessing tools as tool discoverability is very low. The author tries to deal with this by putting the a menu next to a search bar and putting hints in the bottom menu (which I don’t think would really work here, as raster tools are less selection-specific than 3D tools). Search fixes the speed-of-access issue, but doesn’t help discoverability very much, as users still have to hunt through highly nested menus.<p>Looking at the screenshots here, I don’t think you actually <i>need</i> search to make those menus more manageable. One screenshot of current GIMP shows a menu tree that looks like “filter-&gt;render-&gt;noise-&gt;solid noise…”. I think you could probably combine the entire noise submenu from that tree, and make it instead a segmented control on the actual “noise” dialog that chooses your type of noise. I suspect dropping the “render” level as well would also be good. “Render” is a bit of a jargon-y term in the context of graphics editing, and I don’t think it means much to most people using it. Furthermore, the top “filter” menu isn’t actually all that long, and people generally prefer wide flatter trees to narrower deeper trees. So, I’d pitch for a simpler menu that would just be “filter-&gt;noise…”. By flattening and combining, I think that menu could be made much more usable and discoverable.
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SebastianKra超过 1 年前
I&#x27;m surprised there&#x27;s uncertainty about <i>how</i> Gimp should be redesigned. Just copy Photoshop! Select tools on the left, configure the current tool at the top, global options on the right. Affinity does this and nobody complains. Thanks to MacOS help search, we even already have the command search that this video proposes. And it has interaction hints too.<p>Gimp isn&#x27;t more complex than Photoshop. We don&#x27;t need it to reinvent drawing applications.
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wruza超过 1 年前
None of modern UIs are built the way I’d like to work with tool apps as an amateur, nonpro, jack of all trades master of none. I only use a small subset of functions. Old programs which had programmable toolbars in 98&#x2F;2k+ era were the most useful in that regard. I just set these toolbars (and key bindings) up for frequent functions and was fine with it up until when it disappeared. It reappeared in windows start menu, but that’s it. Configurable UIs are obsolete and over, so we have to explore various common denominators. So that new users could still struggle with finding menu items and power users could still struggle with quick access. Because setting up your workspace went out of fashion.
Tao3300超过 1 年前
&gt; [Search] kinda works when you generally know what you need or how a feature you want could be called<p>I mean, that&#x27;s how I feel using the GIMP menus. I never know where anything is, and my first guess is usually wrong.
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torstenvl超过 1 年前
This is a terrible idea. The menu bar works great, integrates with shortcuts, and gives 100% discoverability.<p>Anyone who wants to get rid of it is a bad developer and a bad person.
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eviks超过 1 年前
Universal search is great, as is the overall command pallette idea, every app should have it<p>Althout the usual menu navigation mechanism should also stick around since it provides consistent invocation of a command with a sequence of keybinds (like File, Open). Fuzzy search doesn&#x27;t do that since you can match something else. Key combos require too much memorization<p>(though it doesn&#x27;t have to be the typical horizontal menu at the top, you could have a &quot;modal&quot; navigation mode in the same command pallette)<p>And to answer the question: of course it&#x27;s possible, just highly unlikely
corkybeta超过 1 年前
Unity 7 HUD could search the menubar of any application. I was quite good at guessing the name of the function I wanted, far better than I was at finding it in menus. It looks like MATE, XFCE and i3 still have this.<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;github.com&#x2F;ubuntu-mate&#x2F;mate-hud">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;github.com&#x2F;ubuntu-mate&#x2F;mate-hud</a><p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;jamcnaughton.com&#x2F;2015&#x2F;10&#x2F;19&#x2F;hud-for-xubuntu&#x2F;#jp-carousel-1364" rel="nofollow noreferrer">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;jamcnaughton.com&#x2F;2015&#x2F;10&#x2F;19&#x2F;hud-for-xubuntu&#x2F;#jp-caro...</a>
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_c3ag超过 1 年前
NO! WE SHOULD USE RE-DO WITH PIE-MENUS ONLY :P<p>Universal Search? Like F3 in Blender? Sure! just do it...<p>i studied for a year advertising and marketing degree at an university and i was at the best grades on photograph and any other class that required some creative stuff. all done in Gimp... i don&#x27;t know how the late game is but certainly some company wanting the proprietary .blob of your work in Photoshop lang binaries exists. but i also think that if you are highly creative, there&#x27;s so much to-do with simple tools<p>edit: not that Gimp can&#x27;t do complex stuff but i remember clear sizing the boobs of a woman once at Photoshop and having some trouble on how-to with Gimp at home...
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shaggie76超过 1 年前
I have a photography side-hustle and I use GIMP occasionally for advanced edits I can&#x27;t do in my raw developer. In my semi-regular use over the last 3 years I&#x27;ve never found the UI&#x2F;UX to be a problem but rather find myself coveting features GIMP either doesn&#x27;t have or doesn&#x27;t seem to do very well (smart subject masking, context-aware fill, etc). I&#x27;m getting what I pay for, so I don&#x27;t feel I have any right to complain, but as it drifts farther behind the commercial offerings I suspect debates about the UX might not be what GIMP needs.
refulgentis超过 1 年前
Just in case author happens to read comments: There&#x27;s this sudden brick wall of understandability in the &quot;Interaction Hints&quot; section. It&#x27;s not clear what the visual hints are in the screenshot because there&#x27;s a number of UI elements present. And &quot;obviously&quot; is carrying too much load, you&#x27;d have to be be familiar with Blender to know.
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darklycan51超过 1 年前
It&#x27;s better than what currently there is but why does open source software have to have such bad UI? what are those lock and checkboxes? a 5 year old could come up with better icons...<p>What&#x27;s up with the thick lines around UI elements? it all looks so 2008.<p>It sometimes looks to me like absolutely 0 designers are actually involved in open source, at all
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KaiserPro超过 1 年前
changing the GUI for a good reason makes sense, making it look like photoshop doesn&#x27;t seem like a good idea.<p>Photoshop is an arse to use, just like the GIMP. I just happen to have learnt gimp first.
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cycomanic超过 1 年前
It&#x27;s somewhat ironic that the author is essentially proposing a blender-like UI for gimp, considering that blenders UI is one of the most maligned UIs out there.<p>For the record I think the blender UI is pretty genius for an extremely complex graphics program and it could also work with gimp. Also the loud shouting around blenders UI have died down a lot in recent years, which I attribute to 2 things:<p>1. the great work done to make the UI more discoverable. 2. Blender having become almost a standard so there is lots of tutorials and it&#x27;s now much more often the first 3d graphics program that people get exposed to (hence less it doesn&#x27;t work like Maya,... complaints).
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Jerry2超过 1 年前
Since moving to 10-bit color, I&#x27;ve had to abandon GIMP because it doesn&#x27;t support it. It&#x27;s the only application that&#x27;s giving me trouble so I&#x27;ve just switched over to Krita for occasional image manipulation.
dither8超过 1 年前
I don&#x27;t hate the UI choice made in Dune 3D. But I still think the menu bar approach is the best for complex applications.<p>I don&#x27;t like the GTK crowd&#x27;s approach in regards trying to make everything work within the GNOME design paradigm. It doesn&#x27;t look good on all platforms, and feels more hamfisted then anything else.<p>Sad to see some in the comments criticise GIMP so hard, I get it doesn&#x27;t compete with professional proprietary software. But it&#x27;s still a very useful image editing tool, that I use a lot.
phendrenad2超过 1 年前
Excuses abound. &quot;There are too many features&quot; So? Do the work. Organize them. &quot;GTK doesn&#x27;t have xxx, doesn&#x27;t allow yyy, we have to wait until GTK 5 comes out...&quot; No? Just do the work. Add those features to GTK itself or find a workaround.<p>Open-source is built one patch at a time, so a big rewrite can never happen. But what&#x27;s worse, to me, is that people build up this cognitive dissonance that it&#x27;s some framework&#x27;s fault that it doesn&#x27;t have the right dropdown widget yet.
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lofaszvanitt超过 1 年前
Does this man ever worked with photoshop? What is he talking about? Of course there is a menu, just like in PS. Of course it is overwhelming at first. The biggest reasont most of the UI&#x2F;UX sucks, because those who create the program never actually use it day by day. So easy. Use your own program and whenever you get frustrated it shows you that you have done something wrong or awkward and it needs adjustment. Another important thing is to drop the &quot;this must look and feel different than photoshop&quot; stance (more vs less) and it will be a-ok. And don&#x27;t be afraid to borrow things from the bigheaded ones if that works well.<p>Krita and Gimp&#x27;s biggest issue is that most of the tools are implemented in a non intuitive way. Everything is a disorganized mess. And since PS doesn&#x27;t run under linux, this gets on my nerves.<p>For example in Krita you can&#x27;t resize a crop rectangle with the mouse that holds its aspect ratio... WHYYY? And why does the crop tool forgets the previous size values? Little things like these show that the creators NEVER EVER use their own fucking program.
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Izkata超过 1 年前
&gt; And the same applies, for example, to moving selections, because in GIMP, you need to press Ctrl+Alt and then drag to move the contents of the selection, which is not how people expect this to work coming from many other applications. Again, the only way they can find this out is by watching a tutorial or reading the user manual.<p>This is a shortcut for Cut+Paste, which I always use anyway because I find it more intuitive.
nabla9超过 1 年前
All these programs like GIMP, Blender, Dune, should split into two.<p>There should be a library that has the functionality and data structures to manipulate data. The UI should be a separate project with different people.<p>There could be multiple GUI&#x27;s for the same project or same GUI framework for multiple projects.
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amelius超过 1 年前
I think they should focus on incorporating LLMs and stable diffusion and make them more easily accessible.
IshKebab超过 1 年前
Horizon EDA is really fantastic and the first <i>usable</i> open source EDA tool I&#x27;ve used. (I&#x27;ve not tried LibrePCB yet so that may be ok, but I&#x27;ve tried all the others; they all have awful UX including Kicad. A lot of the commercial tools have insane UX too - look up how you copy &amp; paste in Eagle.)<p>Solvespace is the only usable open source CAD software I&#x27;ve found and I <i>have</i> tried all of them. Unfortunately it has some awkward limitations (no bevels or fillets is probably the biggest).<p>If he can take the excellent Solvespace constraint solver and make something usable that would be amazing!
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great_psy超过 1 年前
Slightly off topic, but for anybody looking to make the transition from photoshop to gimp, check out this extension: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;github.com&#x2F;Diolinux&#x2F;PhotoGIMP">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;github.com&#x2F;Diolinux&#x2F;PhotoGIMP</a><p>It adjusts shortcuts and a bit of the interface to feel a lot more familiar.<p>I’ve been using photoshop for a few years and just transitions to gimp a few months ago, and so far I did not miss any of the photoshop functionality.<p>(I only do personal photography manipulation, no design or any sort of drawing that might need a tablet)
agumonkey超过 1 年前
Go study Alias Maya, it was a solid timeless ergonomic base. Modo too (it was the equivalent of FP for UIs in 2000s, rare). Photoshop is probably still extremely efficient.
e12e超过 1 年前
There&#x27;s also photoGimp:<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;github.com&#x2F;Diolinux&#x2F;PhotoGIMP">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;github.com&#x2F;Diolinux&#x2F;PhotoGIMP</a><p>But it&#x27;s interesting if we can get FOSS Gui toolkits that allow for different approaches to menu&#x2F;toolbar&#x2F;discovery where the user can easily adjust and select how things should work - like readline Emacs&#x2F;vi selection on steroids for Gui.
wafriedemann超过 1 年前
GIMP was a horrible outdated experience for me &gt;15 years ago and I assume it hasn&#x27;t gotten any better.
akasakahakada超过 1 年前
&gt;&gt;&gt; the team tried to solve that with a search<p>Before that you should fix the names. Searching for Gaussian would&#x27;t give me Gaussian blur because the script for that is in a different name.<p>And if you kill the menu, you are killing the whole project.
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renewiltord超过 1 年前
The one thing I can say is that fuzzy search like IntelliJ is a really good interface for experienced workflow. Maybe an AI fuzzy search would help with discoverability.
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thibran超过 1 年前
How difficult would it be to train an AI with all GIMP documentation and online Q&amp;A&#x27;s and ship an offline support-chat with GIMP?
superkuh超过 1 年前
GIMP is still a Gtk2 program.
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wredue超过 1 年前
I will forever be against weird “hidden” menus and even more against the idiotic replacing of clear, obvious text based menuing with bullshit, stupid, mentally handicapped “just memorize what our developers decided these images mean lol Hurr durr”.<p>Absolutely hate this redesign.<p>The correct response to a “too small viewport” for anyone serious is to buy a better monitor with a larger resolution, not to redesign menus in to bullshit obscurity.
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DonHopkins超过 1 年前
&gt;Interaction hints<p>&gt;Another interesting thing here is that when you do something like drawing a line, for example, you get these nice visual hints here, just above the status bar:<p>&gt;Interaction hints<p>&gt;The idea is coming from Blender obviously, and it would make a lot of sense to use this in applications like GIMP and Inkscape. Here is a good reason why.<p>The first place I ever saw this feature was on the Lisp Machine. It was called the &quot;mouse-documentation&quot; line.<p>Operating the Lisp Machine:<p><a href="http:&#x2F;&#x2F;bitsavers.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de&#x2F;pdf&#x2F;symbolics&#x2F;LM-2&#x2F;Operating_the_Lisp_Machine.pdf" rel="nofollow noreferrer">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;bitsavers.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de&#x2F;pdf&#x2F;symbolics&#x2F;L...</a><p>&gt;1.3 The Mouse (pp. 3)<p>&gt;The mouse is a pointing device that can be moved around on a flat surface. These motions are sensed by the Lisp Machine, which usually responds by moving the cursor around on the screen in a corresponding manner. The shape of the cursor varies, depending on context. See chapter 10, page 40.<p>&gt;There are three buttons on the mouse, called Left, Middle and Right. They are used to specify operations to be performed. Typically the user points at something with the mouse and specifies an operatin by clicking the mouse buttons. Rapid double clicks are conventionally distinguished from single clicks. Thus, in any specific context, there are up to sex operations that can be performed with the mouse, invoked by Left, Left Double, Middle, Middle Double, Right, and Right Double. Some of these operations are local to particular programs such as the editor, and some are defined more widely across the system.<p>&gt;Typically operations available by clicking the mouse button are listed at the bottom of the screen. This display changes as you move the mouse around or run different programs.<p>&gt;Sometimes holding a mouse button down continuously for a period of time may also be defined to perform some operation, for example drawing a curve on the screen. This will be indicated by the word &quot;Hold&quot;. For example, &quot;Middle Hold&quot; means to click the middle mouse button down and hold it down, releasing it only when the operation is complete. &quot;Left Double Hold&quot;means to click the left mouse button twice, holding it down the second time until the operation is complete.<p>&gt;Occasionally a long click is distinguished from a short one, as a Morse Code dash is distinguished from a dot. In cases it doesn&#x27;t matter exactly how long the button is held down, as long as it is perceptibly longer than the usual rapid sgtrike. Such a click will be described by the word &quot;Long&quot; as in &quot;Right Long&quot;.<p>&gt;The mouse is completely &quot;soft&quot;, like the keyboard: The Lisp Machine can be programmed to interpret the mouse in any desired fashion. The protocol that has been chosen, however, is extremely general and should suffice for almost all needs.<p>[...]<p>&gt;2.1 The Geography of the Display [...]<p>&gt;2.1.2 The Who-Line and Run-Lights (pp. 5) [...]<p>&gt;Above the who-line there is a line of mouse-documentation, which is displayed in inverse video to make it easy to move your eyes to it from someplace else on the screen. This line tells you what the buttons on the mouse would do if you clicked them with the mouse where it currently is. If the line is blank, it means the default mouse buttons are in effect; clicking Left will select the window pointed-to, and clicking Right will get you the system menu (these are explained later).
pmontra超过 1 年前
The search tool for GIMP is Google. How do I draw a rectangle? Google brings you to <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;docs.gimp.org&#x2F;2.10&#x2F;en&#x2F;gimp-using-rectangular.html" rel="nofollow noreferrer">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;docs.gimp.org&#x2F;2.10&#x2F;en&#x2F;gimp-using-rectangular.html</a> which starts with &quot;GIMP is not designed to be used for drawing.&quot; and then goes on which &quot;However, you may create shapes by either painting them using the technique described in Section 14.1, “Drawing a Straight Line” or by using the selection tools&quot;<p>At that point you realize that what you really want is MS Paint from Windows 3.1
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capableweb超过 1 年前
If Blender could radically update their UI and UX after 25 years of the initial conception, I feel like any (FOSS) project could do it too, no matter how many options and technical details the software has.
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b5n超过 1 年前
Just to contrast the negativity here I&#x27;d like to say that GIMP is great software, and I really appreciate all the hard work that has been put into it over the years. It&#x27;s powerful, easily scriptable, and I&#x27;m eternally grateful for everyone&#x27;s contributions to the project.<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.gimp.org&#x2F;docs&#x2F;" rel="nofollow noreferrer">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.gimp.org&#x2F;docs&#x2F;</a>
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ghostly_s超过 1 年前
The problems with Gimp have nothing to do with not having a sufficient UI paradigm to contain Gimp&#x27;s oh-so-precious functionality; it&#x27;s that the project leadership refuses to consider that tue esoteric universally-loathed UI paradigms they came up with might be <i>worse than the prevailing conventions</i>.
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spandextwins超过 1 年前
It&#x27;s open source, fork it and knock yourself out.
tantaman超过 1 年前
What about an integrated LLM assistant for GIMP? Seems like that&#x27;s the future for any professional application (e.g., PhotoShop, CAD, Reason)
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rco8786超过 1 年前
Somewhat tangential but is there any compelling reason to use Gimp over Photopea in 2023?
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DustinBrett超过 1 年前
Would be cool if GIMP could move to the web like Photoshop is doing.
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