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Smart drugs reduce quality of effort, and slow decision-making

246 点作者 wjb3超过 1 年前

40 条评论

mdorazio超过 1 年前
The authors of the paper seem to have misinterpreted why many cognitively healthy students take ritalin&#x2F;adderall. It&#x27;s not to make you smarter or more able to solve complex problems, it&#x27;s to let you focus and cram on large workloads for far longer than you otherwise would be able to. Basically, quantity over quality.<p>A much better test would have been to give all the study participants some new material requiring multiple hours of study to memorize &amp; learn, then give them a test. The knapsack problem is fine to test some measure of &quot;intelligence&quot;, but a bad choice to simulate academics.
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jfrbfbreudh超过 1 年前
I take ADHD meds and find that it definitely dulls my thinking and creative problem solving, but it at least gives me the motivation to actually write code vs. do nothing.<p>Ideally, I’d have unmedicated days where I just sit and think through problems, and then medicated days where I’d work on the actual implementation. Unfortunately, I just spend all of my time on HN and youtube on my unmedicated days.
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cmcaleer超过 1 年前
Anecdote regarding &#x27;smart drugs&#x27;: The most interesting thing I observed in starting treatment of my ADHD as an adult is that it I think that it stimulated my brain such that I was better able to recognise my tiredness. I remember taking dexamphetamine while I was titrating in the afternoon and pulling over an hour later while driving because I felt I was too tired to safely drive. This was after what I had considered a &#x27;normal&#x27; amount of sleep in the past.<p>When I spoke to people who took these drugs in university (almost all w&#x2F;o ADHD) sleepiness or calmness never reported by them as a side effect. I avoided coffee and &#x27;energy&#x27; drinks in the past because I had this effect, and didn&#x27;t really understand how people took caffeine to keep themselves awake - I thought it was kind of a meme and I wouldn&#x27;t understand why my coworkers would drink it during night shifts.<p>I don&#x27;t think dehydration adequately explains these to me, as I do take care to try to stay hydrated.
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karmakaze超过 1 年前
&gt; All of the drugs also increased the number of times the participants moved items in and out of the knapsack. “Thus, if one measures motivation in terms of time spent or number of items moved, drugs clearly enhanced motivation,” the team writes. However, on average, the drugs did not increase ‘effort quality’ or productivity, measured as the average gain in knapsack value per move. Productivity was lower in all three drug conditions, compared with placebo.<p>This &quot;measured as the average gain in knapsack value per move&quot; is an unusually chosen metric. Why would it not simply be the best&#x2F;total score in the allotted time. This preemptively punishes sustained effort which is one of the increased behaviors. I&#x27;d like to see this done again with a different problem, a different metric, or simply their raw data.<p>Now that I think about it, all of these types of reports should include the raw data or GTFO. This one seems to provide some on the referenced <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.science.org&#x2F;doi&#x2F;10.1126&#x2F;sciadv.add4165" rel="nofollow noreferrer">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.science.org&#x2F;doi&#x2F;10.1126&#x2F;sciadv.add4165</a><p>&gt; MATLAB code that generates the statistics and figures, along with underlying data, can be found in the notebook “figures.mlx” and “SOM.mlx” of the GitHub repository bmmlab&#x2F;PECO (<a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;zenodo.org&#x2F;badge&#x2F;latestdoi&#x2F;592775835" rel="nofollow noreferrer">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;zenodo.org&#x2F;badge&#x2F;latestdoi&#x2F;592775835</a>).
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matznerd超过 1 年前
This study is about the amphetamine stimulants methylphenidate, dextroamphetamine, and the eugeroic (wakefulness agent) modafinil, and not about nootropics. Though the term smart drug can be inclusive of all of them...<p>Real smart drugs = nootropics = piracetam and piracetam-like molecules. Stimulants generally decrease performance, increase false positives, and lead to worse performance as this study showed (especially in a first time user).<p>Most nootropics take about 14 days to hit their stride and the effect isn&#x27;t discernible immediately (though can be detected in an EEG)...<p>See study: &quot;Increase in the power of human memory in normal man through the use of drugs&quot;<p>&quot;Nootropyl (Piracetam) a drug reported to facilitate learning in animals was tested for its effect on man by administering it to normal volunteers. The subjects were given 3x4 capsules at 400 mg per day, in a double blind study. Each subject learned series of words presented as stimuli upon a memory drum. No effects were observed after 7 days but after 14 days verbal learning had significantly increased.&quot;<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov&#x2F;826948&#x2F;" rel="nofollow noreferrer">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov&#x2F;826948&#x2F;</a><p>Study: &quot;Single-dose piracetam effects on global complexity measures of human spontaneous multichannel EEG&quot;<p>&quot;The results indicate that a single dose of piracetam dose-dependently affects the spontaneous EEG in normal volunteers, showing effects at the lowest treatment level. The decreased EEG complexity is interpreted as increased cooperativity of brain functional processes.&quot;<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov&#x2F;10555876&#x2F;" rel="nofollow noreferrer">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov&#x2F;10555876&#x2F;</a><p>Study: &quot;Single doses of piracetam affect 42-channel event-related potential microstate maps in a cognitive paradigm&quot;<p>&quot;U-shaped dose-dependent effects were found; they were strongest after 4.8 g piracetam. Since these particular ERP segments are recognized to be strongly correlated to cognitive functions, the present findings suggest that single medium doses of piracetam selectively activate differently located or oriented neurons during cognitive steps of information processing.&quot;<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov&#x2F;8272204&#x2F;" rel="nofollow noreferrer">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov&#x2F;8272204&#x2F;</a>
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willtemperley超过 1 年前
It&#x27;s not unusual for students to crush and snort ritalin before exams in the UK.<p>We have an interesting system - final year exams are essentially a one-shot thing in the UK. If you are lucky enough to able to retake a final exam, your mark is capped at 40% - a third class mark. An upper second class degree is required for PhD entry.<p>Little wonder people will do _anything_ to pass those exams.
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Inviz超过 1 年前
Modafinil is a great tool to have in one&#x27;s toolbelt.<p>There&#x27;re days and situations when having uninterrupted focus for 10-14 hours does make a big impact. Condensing certain workloads into one day can save a lot of time in a longer run. For example going through huge refactoring with a lot of moving parts can be very draining to work through if you need to load in the context every day. Striking the iron while it&#x27;s hot can help a great deal.
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ryukoposting超过 1 年前
Shocker, your brain function is impaired while on a drug you&#x27;ve never taken before and you weren&#x27;t prescribed.<p>In my experience, it doesn&#x27;t matter if you have multiple psychological evaluations and 10+ years of success with a consistent dosage of an ADHD medication. Most doctors just won&#x27;t write the prescription because of this sort of bunk.
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baryphonic超过 1 年前
&gt; While on a drug, participants made a poorer, more random first attempt at filling a knapsack than they did after taking the placebo, and this had an especially negative impact on the subsequent performance of those who’d been above average in the placebo condition, explaining why they dropped below the mean. Overall, the results suggest that the participants’ approach to solving the knapsack task became less systematic while they were on each of the three drugs, the researchers write.<p>I can&#x27;t help but think that since the knapsack problem is NP-complete, any attempt to fill the sack could subjectively appear &quot;more random.&quot; Certainly the participants could use certain heuristics, but since in general there is no known way to systematically solve the problem, this study seems to enable some confirmation bias on the part of the experimenters.
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jugg1es超过 1 年前
I&#x27;d like to see if they still get these results if they use people who are acclimated to these drugs before-hand. The first time taking any drug always hits the hardest and it&#x27;s possible these people were just too high.
gehwartzen超过 1 年前
Having been on Adderall I agree with most here that it increases my executive function but doesn’t really make me smarter.<p>I have a long history of experimenting with both legal and illicit drugs and the only one I found to actually significantly increase my cognitive ability to solve complex problems is low dose Ketamine. Low dose lsd&#x2F;shrooms as well but to a much lesser degree.
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tflinton超过 1 年前
I&#x27;ve been taking Adderall for a very long time. Prior to it I had a very difficult time motivating myself and simply being able to block out a thousand other thoughts and stimulus. I developed techniques to cope prior to taking it but once I started it was like night and day. It doesn&#x27;t at all make me smarter but allows me to decide what I want to do rather than some sub-cognitive part of me. Should people take it to make them smarter? In my experience it helps focus, not intelligence.
TrackerFF超过 1 年前
I have ADHD (inattentive), and wasn&#x27;t diagnosed until I was in my mid 20s - I somehow managed to graduate from university. I attribute the countless all-nighters for that. I never tried ADHD meds before I was officially diagnosed, but I good chunk of my classmates would regularly use meds in the days &#x2F; weeks leading to exams, so that they could cram for 12 hours.<p>From experience, the different drugs available can feel wildly different on me - so I&#x27;m going to assume that would also be valid for the non-ADHD users?<p>But, anyway, looking back - the playing field def seemed uneven. How on earth are unmedicated neurodivergent going to compete against &quot;enhanced&quot; healthy people - it&#x27;s like playing football with crutches, while your opponent is not only healthy, but also using steroids.<p>EDIT: And, yes, I&#x27;m sure some % of the students that perform better when using meds may have some underlying&#x2F;undiagnosed condition.
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Hnrobert42超过 1 年前
This study makes me think my dose may be too high. When my Adderall hits in the morning, EVERYTHING seems like a good idea. Then, I end up spending two hours writing the perfect email.
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photochemsyn超过 1 年前
They missed an opportunity to compare microdosing psychedelics like LSD with the amphetamine class stimulants. Many users report that psychedelics do have interesting cognitive effects related to enhanced creativity and making long-range connections between disparate subjects, though I&#x27;m not sure it would help with knapsack optimization.<p>As others note, the ADHD-type drugs just let you work longer without needing sleep, although the bill must eventually be paid with interest, which is why people who take a lot of stimulants tend to go through boom-bust cycles over time. Such drugs also have a kind of jangly nervous side effect which inhibits the creation of complex mental architectures of the kind that mathematicians rely on, so I&#x27;m not surprised by the study&#x27;s results. They&#x27;re more suited to rote learning (unfortunately common in today&#x27;s academia) and repetitive tasks (factory work etc.).
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tomohawk超过 1 年前
I decided long ago to not take substances such as these, or even caffeine. I also abstain from tobacco, alcohol, and the like.<p>This forced me to develop skills and discipline over the years to achieve self control, and this has more than paid off. I find I can work a 12 hour day, and then go in the next day and do the same. It doesn&#x27;t seem like a huge deal to me - especially when I consider family members who are&#x2F;were farmers where this is quite a normal work day and used to be quite normal for everyone until about WWII.<p>Am I an outlier? I don&#x27;t know, but I know others who have taken the same path with similar results.<p>I&#x27;ve worked with many people who cannot function without caffeine, let alone other substances. They will often claim how it enhances their abilities, but it doesn&#x27;t come across that way in my observations. They seem to be dependent on a substance for normal, or even sub-normal performance.
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instagraham超过 1 年前
Wow. Worth noting that there doesn&#x27;t seem to have been much research or coverage of modafinil since the 2016 boom in &quot;it&#x27;s safe and makes you smart!&quot; media hype.<p>By far the easiest to obtain and abuse, though it&#x27;s as yet unclear what abusing it looks like
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beefman超过 1 年前
I&#x27;ve long wished for more studies like this. So it&#x27;s good to see.<p>This one does miss some important variables:<p>1. Dose-dependent effects<p>2. Naive vs experienced users of a drug<p>3. Novel vs familiar task<p>Though the authors spend a lot of time showing these stimulants reduce work efficiency, their central finding seems to be: &quot;There was no significant effect of drug on performance&quot;<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.science.org&#x2F;doi&#x2F;10.1126&#x2F;sciadv.add4165" rel="nofollow noreferrer">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.science.org&#x2F;doi&#x2F;10.1126&#x2F;sciadv.add4165</a>
zeroCalories超过 1 年前
My personal experience as someone diagnosed with ADHD is that they definitely make me more effective. My attention gets grabbed and redirected in inefficient ways, and being on the meds allows me to keep my focus fully on a task. But when I&#x27;m working on something I find exciting or fun, like a production failure, or a video game, I don&#x27;t think my meds help me. Sometimes I wonder if my ADHD is even real.
michael1999超过 1 年前
How does a placebo for amphetamines work? I&#x27;d know the difference in 30 minutes.
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neilv超过 1 年前
Even in the &#x27;90s, I heard that a large percentage of CS undergrads were on prescription meds, such as Ritalin. A much larger percentage than you&#x27;d think would have an abnormal condition. I didn&#x27;t ask many students about it, but my guess at the time was that it was for performance enhancement above typical human capability.<p>And this was a bit before the current FAANG pressure to spend lots of time on Leetcode memorizing and rehearsing, in addition to coursework -- CS students only needed to get through their time-consuming lab-heavy courses, and then they could get a good job. (This was slightly before CS became one of the very high paying upper-middle careers, like medicine and law, which seemed to put high-stakes demands on undergrads&#x27; school performance.)<p>Large numbers of people drugged-up for years, simply to pass status-career gatekeeping, doesn&#x27;t seem like a great situation.
cosmojg超过 1 年前
Everything&#x27;s a trade-off. Most people who take stimulants regularly would be far less likely to even make an effort or make a decision without them. It seems obvious that the quality of an effort or decision will decrease in proportion when you take away all of the additional indecisive overthinking an individual would normally be doing instead of, y&#x27;know, actually doing the thing. Again, that&#x27;s the trade-off, and I think most people are behaving rationally when they accept that deal. Until clinical psychology cracks how to simply teach the skills of &quot;not overthinking,&quot; &quot;staying singularly focused,&quot; and &quot;maintaining a bias towards action,&quot; it would seem that we&#x27;re stuck with stimulants for the foreseeable future.
insanitybit超过 1 年前
&gt; The results showed that on average, the drugs didn’t affect the chance of a participant finding the solution to a knapsack problem. Contrary to perhaps many students’ expectations, however, participants tended to perform worse after taking one of the drugs, packing a lower total value of items.<p>I have to assume that everyone who has taken these drugs could have predicted this, yeah? No one gets this drug and thinks &quot;I will literally be more intelligent&quot;, they get them so that they can grind out 12 hours of work without being distracted by anything. 12 hours of work at 90% efficiency is way better than ~2 hours of work at 100% efficiency.<p>&gt; Not only that, but they spent substantially more time working on their solution while on the smart drugs than they did after taking the placebo. In fact, participants spent almost as much time on the easiest presentations of the knapsack task while on methylphenidate (Ritalin) as they did on the hardest instances of the task after taking the placebo, without any corresponding improvement in performance.<p>As expected! One of the &quot;traps&quot; you have to be aware of when taking these medications is to be sure to not overfocus on things that don&#x27;t matter.<p>&gt; The results have clear implications: healthy people who take these drugs hoping for cognitive gains may work harder and longer at a problem, but without any benefit.<p>No way lol that is a ridiculous conclusion to draw. Without any benefit? Seriously? The benefits are <i>massive</i>.
ulizzle超过 1 年前
I don’t think amphetamines do that on their own, but rather over time the fatigue builds up and the drugs can’t mask it anymore.<p>The issue with smart drugs is that high tolerance leads to psychosis much easier than you’d think.
mtizim超过 1 年前
&gt; single dose trial<p>Humans make better decisions when in a state they&#x27;ve been pretty much their entire lives than in an altered one, more news at 11.<p>The study seems useless - it&#x27;s like giving the participants their own, long used car, asking them to set a time, and then comparing that to the time they would set in the same car, but with a slightly different clutch. I&#x27;d very gladly read a similar comparison for long term regular users.
AstralStorm超过 1 年前
First time I hear someone calling amphetamines smart drugs. Modafinil itself has weak to non-existent nootropic effect as well, and it only partially abates sleep deprivation.<p>This effect of amphetamines on creativity and work quality is expected and has been described in the literature before. It gets worse when sleep deprived.<p>They are best for repetitive boring work that requires alertness, not learning.
fredgrott超过 1 年前
Seems suspicious as these are narco class drugs and the study gave them to those who did not have the condition for the medicine. Did they give the study participants ample warning that they could be addicted after one dose?<p>Ah ah! ADHD&#x27;ers including me have double the amount of DATs and NATs you guys and gals do not! Its why I will not get addicted taking Ritalin, Adderall, etc and yet you in fact will!
inciampati超过 1 年前
Wow. Smart drugs just increase time spent working. N=40
epgui超过 1 年前
All other things being equal, I think slower thinking or decision-making is probably a very good thing.<p>I mean it depends on what the goal and situation is, but I strongly believe that <i>in general</i>, fast thinking prioritizes heuristics over analysis and comes at an enormous (often unrecognized) cost.
FFP999超过 1 年前
I spent a good deal of my 20s in an informal study on the cognitive effects of long-term self-prescribed amphetamine use. (Translation: I used to hang out with a whole lot of tweakers.) This article squares with my experience: amphetamines make your brain faster, not better.
Eumenes超过 1 年前
Kinda strange how they forgot to include the big stimulants, like Adderall and Vyvanse, in the study. My guess its impossible to incorporate a placebo with amphetamines. College kids are taking those, not Ritalin or Concerta, lol.
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narrator超过 1 年前
Meanwhile, in Russia they&#x27;re making all kinds of smart drugs that work way better than the ones in the study: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;slatestarcodex.com&#x2F;2014&#x2F;08&#x2F;16&#x2F;an-iron-curtain-has-descended-upon-psychopharmacology&#x2F;" rel="nofollow noreferrer">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;slatestarcodex.com&#x2F;2014&#x2F;08&#x2F;16&#x2F;an-iron-curtain-has-de...</a><p>Piracetam was also developed in Romania in the 60s. I don&#x27;t like communism or anything, but the complete ignorance of the U.S medical system about drugs developed outside the United States that are now out of patent is just a tragedy. Luckily, in the 80s and 90s AIDS patients lobbied to let foreign drugs be imported because many of them worked better than the domestically developed AIDS drugs.<p>What&#x27;s weird is illegal drugs are vastly more popular and studied in the U.S, with the recent hallucinogen microdosing trend, than drugs that have been used safely for decades overseas.
Jeff_Brown超过 1 年前
Two observations:<p>(1) When studying, the extra time spent could outweigh the reduced quality of thought.<p>(2) Not a new point but it&#x27;s strange how you can take a drug and think it has one effect when it has another.
ActorNightly超过 1 年前
Mandatory reading about Adderall<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;slatestarcodex.com&#x2F;2017&#x2F;12&#x2F;28&#x2F;adderall-risks-much-more-than-you-wanted-to-know&#x2F;" rel="nofollow noreferrer">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;slatestarcodex.com&#x2F;2017&#x2F;12&#x2F;28&#x2F;adderall-risks-much-mo...</a>
nurettin超过 1 年前
So if you suspect that you took a &quot;smart drug&quot; and it is a placebo, you get smarter. Got it.
sneak超过 1 年前
When I hear “smart drugs” in a headline, I don’t think of amphetamines.
Clubber超过 1 年前
This phenomenon reminds me of athletes taking steroids to improve their performance, or slave dock workers being given cocaine to improve their output. The problem with both is it requires other people to also take those drugs to be competitive.
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sarasasa28超过 1 年前
why are americans so addicted to adderall
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languagehacker超过 1 年前
A few important things to consider:<p>Lumping all of the medications in question into a single study is disingenuous, and seems biased towards concluding their ineffectiveness.<p>All three of the drugs in question have different mechanisms of action, which means that they will have a different effect on people with different brain chemistry. My read here is that if everyone takes all three and a placebo, performance may be enhanced in one case, but the remaining three cases can make the study come across as conclusive that on the whole, this course of treatment is ineffective.<p>Not a lot of detail on the placebo and why it performs so much better, but I&#x27;m curious about the &quot;nocebo&quot; effect and subjects&#x27; prior exposure to the non-placebo dosage. In other words, is the feeling of being on a new &quot;smart&quot; drug too distracting to successfully take the test in question for the first time?<p>The sample size is incredibly small at only 40 people, and skewed in terms of population. These were self-selecting individuals who responded to campus advertisements. This has been the modern critique of psychological experimentation in academia for decades, and I find it a little disparaging that we still have to suffer through it. I wish the HRB would ban things like campus advertisements as a means of recruiting test subjects -- we all really ought to know better by now.<p>While the sequencing of studies on each individual helps to avoid some amount of sequence-based confounding variables, and the spacing of seven days between studies allows for a pretty decent return to homeostasis, the number of study participants is still too low to be conclusive. I&#x27;d need to see this study get repeated numerous times, at a larger scale, over individuals with a more consistent neurological history to be considered conclusive.<p>I don&#x27;t entirely buy the efficacy of working on individuals without any history of psychotropic medication or illicit drug use -- remember that this will rule out participants who have taken things like fluoxetine -- ruling out nearly 20% of adults in many countries -- or slightly skirted Australia&#x27;s drug laws. These are people answering an ad on a college campus, likely for compensation. I don&#x27;t think it&#x27;s likely that all the subjects truthfully self-reported.<p>If anything I&#x27;d expect the neurological variability of a fully unscreened or undiagnosed population to make it really truly hard to measure these drugs effectiveness. Given the mechanisms of action, I&#x27;d expect that the likely 20% of subjects with undiagnosed depression and additional likely 5% of individuals with undiagnosed ADHD would really throw a wrench in any conclusive numbers.<p>I&#x27;m not trying to say that smart drugs are the answer to performing better at work. In fact, I&#x27;d expect a good night of sleep to make a bigger bump in these kinds of test scores. But I found the BPS is really jumping to conclusions based on what looks to me like very flimsy evidence.<p>Testing on people is hard, but publishing summaries of articles that don&#x27;t entirely stand on their own and drawing authoritative conclusions is incredibly easy.
gtroja超过 1 年前
I take adhd drugs to resist the urge to do something else that the voices of my head tell me to. Maybe I think less, but I think enough to get the task done