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PCSX2 Disables Wayland Support

131 点作者 MaximilianEmel超过 1 年前

24 条评论

reisse超过 1 年前
Quoting @stenzek<p>&gt; But Wayland is just broken, and everyone would rather sit around arguing with each other instead of actually addressing the design flaws.<p>&gt; It&#x27;s not the first time such a proposal has been put forward. Something that developers need for their applications to work properly on WL (particularly multi-window applications), and it gets vetoed. Every other OS manages this fine. But apparently we&#x27;re in the wrong for not conforming to some warped view of how applications should be, despite our applications working fine on every other platform.<p>This is so damn true. Wayland lacks a Linus-style BDFL saying that the kern... the compositor is for applications, and not the other way around. We won&#x27;t have nice things until Wayland maintainers stop thinking about what their end users must or must not do, and start closing feature gaps with X and compositors&#x2F;window managers on other OSes. Right now they&#x27;re reinventing the wheel while making it square.
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v1ne超过 1 年前
This discussion about monitor-aware positioning of windows relative to another is a real treasure trove: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;gitlab.freedesktop.org&#x2F;wayland&#x2F;wayland-protocols&#x2F;-&#x2F;merge_requests&#x2F;247" rel="nofollow noreferrer">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;gitlab.freedesktop.org&#x2F;wayland&#x2F;wayland-protocols&#x2F;-&#x2F;m...</a><p>One post summarizes it pretty well. Jehan says: &gt; As GIMP maintainer, do you want me to open a separate report so that we explain our use case on multiple windows, as well as future planned use cases?<p>I find it fascinating. There is this supposed successor to X11, but it breaks a lot of existing applications, telling them that they are wrong. Because layout shall be done by the compositor, not by the application. True, traditional desktop systems make a lot of invalid assumptions like Windows with a global physical pixel grid that makes it pretty tough to display windows which span multiple monitors with different DPIs correctly. Yet still, they get one thing right: Positioning is a job shared between the application and window system. Because only the application knows the semantics in detail. Completely ignoring that and insisting on the application to only express these semantics via a previously-agreed upon protocol sounds pretty arrogant to me. This means that details will be lost. It&#x27;s not up to the protocol designers to decide which semantic details are important. That&#x27;s up to the application designer.
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haunter超过 1 年前
Further down:<p>&gt;... it is disabled on our release builds, because it&#x27;s nothing but headaches for us, because of its broken by design nature causing issues for users. I listed a bunch of them in the OP as well.<p>&gt;We&#x27;re sick of getting blamed for bugs in wayland compositors, while the various committees sit around arguing with each other, finally decide on standard ways of doing things after half a decade, then GNOME ruins it all by refusing to implement it.
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anaisbetts超过 1 年前
GNOME as a platform (and by extension, all of their associated projects which unfortunately includes the Wayland protocol) has such a bizarre worldview - it&#x27;s like they think they can treat the Desktop OS, with all of its user expectations and existing working software, and remake it as a bigger iPadOS, to no one&#x27;s actual benefit.<p>What do I get in return for having to give up all of these things that used to work? It&#x27;s not faster, it doesn&#x27;t do extra things I couldn&#x27;t do before - it&#x27;s _strictly_ downsides all the way down
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TillE超过 1 年前
Aside from bugs and driver issues, Wayland has some unfortunate design limitations. For example, Dear ImGui multi-viewports don&#x27;t work because &quot;Wayland doesn&#x27;t let application read or write windows positions.&quot;<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;github.com&#x2F;ocornut&#x2F;imgui&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Multi-Viewports">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;github.com&#x2F;ocornut&#x2F;imgui&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Multi-Viewports</a><p>This is a feature available on Windows, macOS, and of course X11. Making choices like this means desktop Linux becomes even more of a weird island that nobody wants to support.
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NekkoDroid超过 1 年前
My opinion on a few of the points they have:<p>&gt; Stupid obsession with CSD in Gnome<p>I get why GNOME devs don&#x27;t wanna implement it (most of the times looks out of place for the app, or the app looks out of place to the system if it doesn&#x27;t use the system toolkit, so it&#x27;s just better for them to roll something that looks good for the app) and the XWayland implementation for SSDs are still a holdover that would need to be ported that they don&#x27;t want to do. But then again to my knowledge QT has a way to make a header bar (I <i>think</i> even one in GTK style) and there is libdecor that handles headerbars.<p>&gt; Inability to position windows<p>xdg-session-management is being worked to handle restoring of window positions. There are some contensious extensions being discussed about other window placements but they are still very much in flux. I personally am impartital for the actual use of the features and if they are really that necessary.<p>&gt; Hacks in render-to-main because WL craps itself otherwise<p>This sounds more like a problem with the project itself than wayland considering the meriad of other things able to work, but then again its an emulator that might be doing some very weird stuff so I can&#x27;t say much about it.<p>&gt; Despite said hacks, game list still glitches after stopping emulation, happens more often in gnome<p>Probably a cascading problem from the previous<p>&gt; NVIDIA just crashes in swap chain creation under Wayland<p>Not exactly <i>too</i> surprised, although my laptop with Intel&#x2F;NV hybrid has been working mostly fine for my mostly basic usage.<p>&gt; Broken global menus<p>Those are a thing anywhere other than OSX? How do they handle this on Windows?
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jdlyga超过 1 年前
Are we subjecting ourselves to the sunk cost fallacy with Wayland? It&#x27;s been &quot;almost ready&quot; for 6 or 7 years at this point.
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seeknotfind超过 1 年前
What a refreshingly honest commit message. The corporate over-professional dribble on work commit messages is so bland by comparison. That being said, I&#x27;m still left wondering if Wayland support on one of my projects is a problem.
BaculumMeumEst超过 1 年前
I&#x27;m not sure if it&#x27;s funnier to see popular projects shunning wayland because it sucks or Linus looking to move kernel development away from an email based workflow because &quot;it really isn&#x27;t working anymore&quot;. There is such an insane amount of coping about both of those topics online.
shmerl超过 1 年前
<i>&gt; NVIDIA just crashes in swap chain creation under Wayland</i><p>I&#x27;d say ignore Nvidia, their Wayland support is junk (until nouveau+nvk catches up). It&#x27;s not a Wayland problem, it&#x27;s Nvidia problem.<p>For dealing with CSD mess, there is libdecoration that SDL started using.<p>In general - just use SDL for for DE integration, instead of trying to reinvent the wheel.<p>Wayland is not broken. But if you are trying to reinvent the wheel of supporting it from scratch, you&#x27;ll be hitting a lot of things that need to be implemented. So as above, don&#x27;t do it. Others already did it for you.
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esjeon超过 1 年前
Wayland is good until you hit the corner cases that the dev decided to abandon without leaving any alternatives. We can always have extra protocol that can be optionally enabled, but good luck with standardizing that. It feels as if Wayland people are abusing their committee to keep Wayland as-is, instead of extending it. The protocol dashboard[1] doesn&#x27;t look exactly good.<p>[1]: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;wayland.app&#x2F;protocols&#x2F;" rel="nofollow noreferrer">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;wayland.app&#x2F;protocols&#x2F;</a>
greyw超过 1 年前
Weston developers recently NACKd the window placement protocol (<a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;gitlab.freedesktop.org&#x2F;wayland&#x2F;wayland-protocols&#x2F;-&#x2F;merge_requests&#x2F;247" rel="nofollow noreferrer">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;gitlab.freedesktop.org&#x2F;wayland&#x2F;wayland-protocols&#x2F;-&#x2F;m...</a>).<p>I believe this one of the features pcsx2 wants to see merged. Hopefully, this doesn&#x27;t mean weston developers can block essential protocols.
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apatheticonion超过 1 年前
As a naive user who largely hasn&#x27;t had any issue with it. Is Wayland that bad?
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evanjrowley超过 1 年前
Due to the headline, it has dawned on me just now that the Steam Deck uses X11. Been using PCSX2 successfully on it for several months now. I never thought about whether it was using Wayland or X11 until reading this.
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hollerith超过 1 年前
Public service announcement: you might have switched from X to Wayland (as display server) without your having realized simply by upgrading your distro. To find out: printenv XDG_SESSION_TYPE<p>BTW, Linux&#x2F;Wayland has been my daily driver for 3 years, and I&#x27;m happy with it though I don&#x27;t have Nvidia graphics and don&#x27;t need to record or share my screen.
oynqr超过 1 年前
Wayland lacks a crutch to work around broken multi-monitor handling in composit
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iamcreasy超过 1 年前
&gt; KDE isn&#x27;t too buggy, GNOME is a complete disaster.<p>What did the author mean by this? Don&#x27;t know much about Wayland other than it is window system, replacing x11.<p>KDE Plasma wiki[1] says, &quot;KDE Plasma 5 is the fifth and current generation of the graphical workspaces environment created by KDE....KDE Plasma 5 uses the X Window System and Wayland.&quot;<p>[1] <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;KDE_Plasma_5" rel="nofollow noreferrer">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;KDE_Plasma_5</a>
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bryanlarsen超过 1 年前
Another option might be to disable only on Gnome or Nvidia since those seem to be the source of most of the problems.
Laaas超过 1 年前
FWIW all the reasons seem like an aversion to complying with how Wayland works.<p>Yes, you can&#x27;t position windows absolutely, but that&#x27;s because you&#x27;re not supposed to do that.<p>In any case I don&#x27;t see how being able to position windows is relevant at all to PCXS2&#x27;s functioning on Wayland? Just don&#x27;t position windows if you can&#x27;t?<p>It&#x27;s an incredibly dumb reason not to support the protocol. Xorg is mostly unmaintained AFAIK.<p>See <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;gitlab.freedesktop.org&#x2F;wayland&#x2F;wayland-protocols&#x2F;-&#x2F;merge_requests&#x2F;247" rel="nofollow noreferrer">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;gitlab.freedesktop.org&#x2F;wayland&#x2F;wayland-protocols&#x2F;-&#x2F;m...</a> for the discussion on this
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pkkm超过 1 年前
Wayland and systemd are two topics that I credit with showing me that I shouldn&#x27;t give too much weight to the consensus on Hacker News and Reddit. Things turned out opposite to the prevailing sentiment at the time.<p>systemd faced an enormous torrent of criticism for replacing the simple sysvinit with something more complex. Yet, sysvinit was only simple if you focus on the init program only instead of taking a systemic view. Under sysvinit, if you wanted to turn a regular command-line program into a daemon, you had to code a whole dance of closing file descriptors, sanitizing environment variables, forking, calling <i>setsid</i>, forking again, resetting the umask, and so on [0]. You had to make sure that all code writing to the standard output and error streams was changed to use the syslog. You also had to manage a pidfile in a way that was free of race conditions. People would write the same logic over, and over, and over again in different projects and programming languages.<p>On the admin side, a server system with a sophisticated configuration that involved starting daemons when a connection arrives, automatic restarting, e-mailing on error, and so on, could easily turn into a complicated maze of interacting programs and shell scripts. To get the full picture of how a daemon is actually managed, you would need to check many config files with completely different syntaxes.<p>systemd has greatly reduced this pointless duplication of effort by centralizing the complexity into a single, well reviewed set of implementations. Now, you can take a small program that runs in the terminal and prints log messages to stdout and, with a single INI-like file of a dozen lines, turn it into a daemon whose process supervision is better than anything you could implement yourself. The ease of configuration encourages you to add features such as automatic restarts, resource limits, or dynamic users, which you probably wouldn&#x27;t have done on sysvinit because it was a pain in the ass.<p>Wayland, until recently, almost universally praised, but it does the opposite. In order to keep the protocol pristine, it just pushes complexity onto everyone else and ends up making the situation terrible from a systemic perspective. Wayland can push video from a regular program (client) to a privileged one (compositor), but when asked about pushing video the other way to record the screen, they went &quot;not my problem&quot; so pipewire has to handle it. There is no longer even a set of standard command-line utilities you can expect everywhere. On X11, you can type a <i>setxkbmap</i> command to tweak your keyboard layout at runtime regardless of the desktop environment. You can get information about the connected monitors with an <i>xrandr</i> command. In Wayland, every compositor has its own way of handling these, and sometimes you can&#x27;t even change a keyboard setting without restarting the compositor. What a regression and a blow to the community of tinkerers who like to share small utility scripts with one another.<p>These are just two examples, but I don&#x27;t think that Wayland&#x27;s approach of targeting specific use cases, instead of providing a set of general tools, can ever work well when combined with its bureaucratic approval process. It took years of asking before Wayland devs decided that maybe the user should be able to disable VSync after all. It also took years to backtrack from the bizarre choice of making the UI scale integer only instead of just exposing the real fraction set by the user.<p>[0] For details, see <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.freedesktop.org&#x2F;software&#x2F;systemd&#x2F;man&#x2F;latest&#x2F;daemon.html#SysV%20Daemons" rel="nofollow noreferrer">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.freedesktop.org&#x2F;software&#x2F;systemd&#x2F;man&#x2F;latest&#x2F;daem...</a>
dinckelman超过 1 年前
As long as the option to keep it turned on exists, I have no issues with this. It&#x27;s one thing to move forward with a new stack, but it&#x27;s a different thing to have it as default when it doesn&#x27;t fully work
heywoodlh超过 1 年前
One <i>tiny</i> irritation for me on Wayland+GNOME is the lack of an Unclutter alternative. Is there any Unclutter alternative that works on Wayland+GNOME?
psyclobe超过 1 年前
Why the fuck should I, the end user, give two shits about whether I&#x27;m running Wayland or X.<p>Linux will never conquer the desktop with this shit.
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hashworks超过 1 年前
Actions like this will just hurt Wayland in the long run. It needs more users, and for that more applications that support it by default. No one will bring X11 to the level of Wayland, but someone might fix the existing Wayland problems.
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