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Interviewing my mother, a mainframe COBOL programmer (2016)

437 点作者 MoBarouma超过 1 年前

31 条评论

scrlk超过 1 年前
The original HN submission from 2016: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=12096250">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=12096250</a><p>&gt; &quot;The banking programming world is a completely different world than what most of us are used to&quot;<p>If you&#x27;re after another read on this topic, &quot;An oral history of Bank Python&quot; is good: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;calpaterson.com&#x2F;bank-python.html" rel="nofollow noreferrer">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;calpaterson.com&#x2F;bank-python.html</a> (also previously on HN: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=29104047">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=29104047</a>)
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ptmcc超过 1 年前
&gt; I can only imagine the fat paycheck a 20-year old mainframe programmer would get though, because your age in this case would be invaluable.<p>It&#x27;s funny, people frequently assume this would be true but reality doesn&#x27;t really bear this out. It&#x27;s typically pretty average to even below average which contributes to the talent pipeline problem.<p>The other side of it is that its not the technical stuff like &quot;knows COBOL&quot; that is so immensely valuble. Any average dev can &quot;learn COBOL&quot; but that&#x27;s not actually the valuable thing. The anecdotes of COBOL programmers coming out of retirement for 500k&#x2F;yr contracts has little to do with COBOL, but their accumulated institutional knowledge of the giant ball of business logic encoded in that COBOL.<p>If these banks and other institutions actually did write fat paychecks to young mainframe programmers the demographic problem they&#x27;re facing might not be so bad.
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danielodievich超过 1 年前
My grandmother programmed with punch cards, have no idea on what hardware and it&#x27;s too late to ask. My father did a bunch of fortran and Cobol on USSR mainframes and then did a bunch of y2k here in USA. One of the neatest things I have from this is a printout from one of his fortran programs from I think Minsk-32 mainframe which he ripped into 3 pieces to wrap a developed large format 64mm film of some mountains that he shot a long time ago. The program seems to be called MATR1 and is doing matrix manipulations and referring to topography of the land in comments. I have it framed on my wall near my workstation. I coded in variety of languages most of my life And now my teenager looks to be interested in coding and is doing Java and Python in high school. Here is to 4th generation programmer!
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vanderZwan超过 1 年前
&gt; <i>This position is the most important one in the bank, at least from a technical standpoint. If, let’s say, my mother and everyone on her team would quit their job, the bank would go under within a matter of weeks if they’re lucky.</i><p>And given how big the market share of Nordea is in Sweden (and other Nordic countries, for that matter) that would probably bring down the Swedish, and possibly Nordic economy. Which would then impact a lot of the EU as well, I guess.<p>Ever since reading this article I&#x27;ve wondered if these COBOL programmers that keep banks like this running are an enormously underestimated &quot;bus factor&quot; for many of the world&#x27;s economies, and what kind of back-up plans they have for such a scenario.<p>[0] <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Nordea" rel="nofollow noreferrer">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Nordea</a>
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shortsightedsid超过 1 年前
&gt; What’s your working environment like? - We’ve recently moved to a more “hip” location. We used to have personal desks, but now we have this “pick whatever spot is avaiable” open area. I dislike it a lot.<p>Somehow this resonates a lot with me even if though I&#x27;ve never worked on Mainframes or anything like that.
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PeterStuer超过 1 年前
During my time working as a systems integration consultant in the financial services sector, I had to do a lott of integration with these core banking systems.<p>Most of the time you try to reuse existing integration points from previous projects, as negotiating completely new interfaces had a lott of friction, both technical and business&#x2F;compliance related, and could easily set your project back for more than a year or two.<p>Integrations are usually delivering structured documents before a certain time in the evening for overnight batch processing. The existing documents with data based on offsets have by design regions of not yet assigned space in them to accomodate future updates and use. You negotiate over the bytes of those that can be assigned to your needs if new info is required.<p>For data extraction you will sometimes find more &#x27;modern&#x27; api&#x27;s, but do not expect too many fine grained REST stuff. You&#x27;ll often find yourself in meetings negotiating with regulation and compliance looking for ways to avoid costly new developments.<p>On a sidenote: I often found compliance people a lott more pragmatic and solution oriented than IT. Having to convince my team that &#x27;the letter&#x27; of a regulation did not mean you have to interpret litterally in the most restrictive way possible what is written was often more a challange than getting a deal with compliance.<p>Now imagine hundreds of projects over many decennia of these strata of integrations, and you will start to get the first glimpse of why replacing these core systems is such a challange.
spelunker超过 1 年前
My mother-in-law worked her entire career in an IT department of an insurance company. She never really did much programming, but became a source of domain knowledge over time.<p>She has all kinds of amusing stories of ye olden days. Before a proper computer system, everything was stored in physical documents of course, and her first project out of college was traveling to satellite offices to re-organize the file systems there to match the new strategy that HQ had come up with. The business of satellite office would grind to a halt while a team of people literally took every single document out, re-labeled it, and put it back. The whole project took over a year.<p>That gave some perspective about my job, lol.
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pavel_lishin超过 1 年前
I wish I had talked to my grandmother more before she developed dementia. I knew she was a mathematician and programmer, but briefly speaking to her a few years back, she mentioned that one of her jobs was calculating orbits for satellites in the Soviet Union.<p>At least, I hope they were satellites!
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suslik超过 1 年前
My grandma has turned 95 this year. She still works in a research institute (ex-USSR) every day, writing numerical simulations in Fortran and Maple. Her colleagues still don&#x27;t want her to retire, and she postpones that every year. Her knowledge of numerical methods and mathematics is exceptional, and I am extremely proud of her.
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zengid超过 1 年前
&lt;Anecdote&gt; My first programming job was at a transportation enterprise with many programmers that had been working there 15-20+ years, many of whom mainly maintained the COBOL that ran the business. Many of those senior programmers were women; it felt like over 50% in the senior cohort. What really made me sad was that the younger programmers there were predominantly male (although still quite a few female!). That company mainly hired out of the local engineering colleges, so it was an interesting case study on how the number of women entering software engineering programs went down over the years. &lt;&#x2F;Anecdote&gt;
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jll29超过 1 年前
Thanks for sharing the story of your developer mom - a very cool mother to have!<p>COBOL is not a &quot;cool&quot; language, but mainframes have been around long enough to be &quot;retro cool&quot; now, and most run Linux at least as an optional OS under some virtualization (IBM Z).<p>As a doctoral candidate in the noughties, I purchased a book about FORTRAN due to its &quot;retro-coolness&quot; and read it, and eventually took on a short university gig to earn the money that the book cost back, tutoring architects&#x2F;engineers in FORTRAN 95 for a bit, which was fun; to date, I could not bring myself to do the same with COBOL, though, or not yet.<p>Because it is so verbose, if I had to use it I would probably write in another language and transpile to it.
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spidermonkey23超过 1 年前
My company which uses mainframe and COBOL is undergoing a migration to Linux. This involves porting all the batch command scripts to bash and also fix quirks with COBOL compiler differences. At the end of it though the system is at least 4x faster and much more maintainable. This was the solution instead of doing a complete rewrite to Java that they backed out of some years before.
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dgadj38998超过 1 年前
&gt; ISPF is directly connected to the mainframe, and there’s no such thing as a local development environment here.<p>That&#x27;s pretty crazy<p>Sounds like having the whole team SSH into one server and doing all the work through the terminal<p>I&#x27;m imagining editing my co-workers files and just removing a random semicolon to mess with them
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otteromkram超过 1 年前
This is great! I wonder how the update(s) went since the article was written in 2016 and they mentioned 4 years per country, or 16 years total. COVID-19 probably threw a wrench in that plan, but how big of an impact is another interesting question.
eugenio-scafati超过 1 年前
Great interview! Im currently working in this domain. Building a solution alongside some ex-Google AI Engineers that automatically scans your legacy codebase (COBOL, RPG, FORTRAN, etc) and with GenAI generates flow diagrams, architecture diagrams, database models, technical code documentation, among others.<p>Our objective is to help corporations modernize their tech stack by properly understanding what they&#x27;ve developed in the past.<p>Today we are also launching in PH so if you want to chat about it, this is my LinkedIn, please reachout!: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.linkedin.com&#x2F;in&#x2F;eugenio-scafati&#x2F;" rel="nofollow noreferrer">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.linkedin.com&#x2F;in&#x2F;eugenio-scafati&#x2F;</a> PH launch: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.producthunt.com&#x2F;posts&#x2F;autonoma" rel="nofollow noreferrer">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.producthunt.com&#x2F;posts&#x2F;autonoma</a>
guyzero超过 1 年前
Programming a mainframe while working from a hotdesk. Who would have imagined.
euroderf超过 1 年前
&gt; They are trying to migrate to DB2 [..] It’s not as simple as just moving the data from IMS into DB2, they also have to update their modules to load &amp; save data from DB2 instead of IMS and they have thousands of modules, many of which were developed by programmers that have either passed away or have retired.<p>I would think that this is a task tailor-made for A.I.&#x2F;ML
gcanyon超过 1 年前
Funny, <i>my</i> mother was a mainframe COBOL programmer, from about 1968 until about 1975. Then she picked up FORTRAN, then she stopped programming around 1985. By 2000, she could barely handle the web, email, and a desktop.<p>Keep your skills up, people!
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orsenthil超过 1 年前
Unrelated, I saw a link for medical book early in the article (at the start of the article). Did the author include it or is substack including it as an advertisement without mentioning it as an advertisement?
christkv超过 1 年前
Man my first job was at Nordea 2000-2003, looking back at it now it was pretty dysfunctional. They were implementing a new everything but the kitchen sink framework that would unify all the customer facing e-banking and it was a mess with an external company providing the framework together with internal architects. In the 3 years I was there I think pretty much zero was delivered.<p>The you had the markets division that would hire in externals to do in parallel dev and then drop the burning corps of the project on internal dev once they moved onto the next shining thing lol.
hyggetrold超过 1 年前
I&#x27;m very curious about IMS - a mentor described it as a graph database of sorts back in its day. I was told it was a great system (at least for its time). Does anyone have a perspective?
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derefr超过 1 年前
&gt; Banking systems are also extremely advanced. A personal bank account differs a lot from a business bank account, and there are at least 50 different types of bank accounts for each of them.<p>I wouldn&#x27;t necessarily call that &quot;advanced&quot;... maybe more, lacking in requirements-analysis-time insight in ways to factor the business-domain into HAS-A component relationships, such that individual components and their ADTs can be shared across parent types [which are really just template&#x2F;factory objects for a smaller set of actual types], and initialized with simple parameters that get used as formula variables with no piecewise logic.<p>To be clear, I write this as someone who works for a company that maintains a unified representation of data across the blockchain ecosystem — where each blockchain has its own peculiarities about what an &quot;account&quot; is, what a &quot;transaction&quot; can do, etc. Our data model only has <i>one</i> toplevel account type, <i>one</i> toplevel ledger-transaction type, etc. To handle the peculiarities, our data model instead has a large heirarchy of smaller data-objects hanging off of those toplevel ones; where any given data-object is sort of an &quot;optional extension&quot; that may or may not be there depending on how the toplevel object was created.<p>This approach allows us to just have one unified <i>code-path</i> that treats every account like every other account, every tx like every other tx, etc. We don&#x27;t have duplicate code or a hierarchy of subclasses that all do things slightly differently; but instead, for <i>any</i> ledger-transaction, there may or may not be e.g. a strategy-pattern object hanging off that tx — and if there is, it gets used instead of the default static one. It&#x27;s great for maintainability, testability, predictability, cacheability, and hundreds of other things.<p>I&#x27;d love to know if there&#x27;s any <i>good</i> reason that a bank would actually <i>want</i> &quot;50 different types of bank account&quot; on an implementation level, rather than these all boiling down to one type with varying values of certain state variables + presence&#x2F;absence of certain foreign-key relationships.<p>Other than maybe &quot;some of these account types are actually a part of completely different data models living in third-party systems, that we acquired, and then never merged into our own systems.&quot; ;)
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vkoskiv超过 1 年前
Pretty good explanation of why the app I use for sauna and laundry room bookings in my apartment building is more reliable than Nordea&#x27;s online banking. Not even a month ago, the Nordea app was showing all my bank accounts as having a balance of 0€. Yikes!<p>Considering what they are working with, I&#x27;m surprised they don&#x27;t have even more downtime.
boilerupnc超过 1 年前
Recently announced, there’s also now a generative AI tool to assist developers with their COBOL modernization journey to Java [0]. I’ve heard pretty decent reviews on its effectiveness.<p>[0]. <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.ibm.com&#x2F;products&#x2F;watsonx-code-assistant-z" rel="nofollow noreferrer">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.ibm.com&#x2F;products&#x2F;watsonx-code-assistant-z</a>
syngrog66超过 1 年前
the 1st professional programmer I knew was a woman who did COBOL for a bank<p>its struck me as interesting ever since. because over the course of my life and career since its seemed that 99%+ of the programmers I knew of were male.<p>I don&#x27;t think there is any one right&#x2F;ideal breakdown by gender, so I just like to have best sense for facts on the ground
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daly超过 1 年前
I taught COBOL while at grad school at UCONN. Methinks I&#x27;m getting old.
ape4超过 1 年前
I surprised banks don&#x27;t have a domain-specific language (DSL) to describe their businesses. Instead each bank has to code &quot;savings account&quot; in COBOL.
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morbicer超过 1 年前
Great read.<p>Stories like this put in perspective people that are moaning about tech debt... by which they mean some functions written a year ago in a style they dislike.
hnthrowaway0315超过 1 年前
1TB transaction per year seems pretty small data. I guess IBM stuffs are there for the stability then?
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dfee超过 1 年前
(meta) As a platform, substack content must follow the power law, right? That is, a few authors are most productive and there’s a long tail of single (or zero) article substacks.<p>This article was migrated from medium, but now the author gets to collect email addresses. But why subscribe? There are two articles. Is substack an RSS replacement (potentially with a paywall)? Maybe I should just consider substack to be a low barrier to entry blogging platform that can be set to your personal domain for $50?<p>Definitely not trying to beat up on the offer, just curious about the real value prop of substack for “most” producers and if that’s aligned with my goals as a reader who sees a email collection modal on every visit.
brightball超过 1 年前
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