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Amazon's Silent Sacking

445 点作者 doitLP超过 1 年前

25 条评论

wolverine876超过 1 年前
Note the subtle shift - in much of SV and the corporate world - from employees as high-return investments that we want to maximize, as human beings we believe in, as agents that would change the world and be the source of our future growth and success; to employees as costs we want to minimize, as a drag on this quarter&#x27;s profits, as adversaries in a low-margin power struggle fought without any higher purpose or moral. Where will the world-changing, paradigm-disrupting ideas come from? Have we given up on that?<p>Remember game rooms, 20% personal projects, sushi, etc.? Maybe some of that is still there, but it is a product of an attitude of a former time.<p>Now in business and elsewhere there is the tidal wave of a new zeitgeist. Working together; believing in, having compassion for, and doing good for others are all outré, often depicted as humanly impossible and ridiculed. Corporate leaders are humans and are swept along too, perhaps more easily because it flatters and enhances their power (also, SV corporate leaders are perhaps more versed in the power of CPUs than the power of zeitgeist, which requires understanding Shakespeare (et al) not LLMs).<p>The good news in this story is that the corrupt and misguided are easy to compete with, just like then-newer SV companies ran circles around corrupt, miguided incumbants that didn&#x27;t invest in the future. You just need the courage of your convictions. Believe that people can change the world, and (with lots and lots of work and risk) they will.
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crtified超过 1 年前
Being &quot;managed out&quot; (as this is sometimes called) of a long term role can be very traumatic. Especially if you-the-employee approach the situation with a natural and genuine desire to fix or heal the situation, in the face of the (unbeknownst to you) deliberate and ongoing undermining coming from management. Which then draws the process out as long as possible - max pain.<p>Sadly, one of the best options is to - as the author is more-or-less doing - resign yourself to cynically playing your side of the game, in order to extract the best possible concessions. While being mindful of the personal cost of protraction.<p>I&#x27;ve been through it, and, again sadly, one of the more lasting regrets was that I showed any legal or financial mercy or restraint at the time - regret for the significant concessions that I had made from of a sense of personal &#x27;decency&#x27;. None whatsoever was shown to me.
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BeefDinnerPurge超过 1 年前
Former L8 there. Terrible culture, full of fungible engineers and leaders that suffocate everyone else with endless meetings and pointless process, with occasional patches of brilliance that keep it from collapsing into a quantum singularity of suck.<p>But TBF, any company squeezing the last few drops of blood from their stones is going to behave similarly. It&#x27;s a great time to be paid a pile of money to hate your job.
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nine_zeros超过 1 年前
My FAANG adjacent company is following the exact same practices. The goal is to &quot;manage out&quot; without paying a severance. They do this by making people miserable - fake PIPs, constant blaming, putting everything on &quot;performance&quot; etc.<p>My coworker got fired this way but I learned something amazing from him - his management was ready to cull him as soon as his project finished. This guy quickly figured this out and instead of quitting, he essentially stopped working hard. Then, he started giving fake status reports leading the management to believe that work is getting done. One fine day, he was let go.<p>But management was left picking up the pieces after his departure. With few engineers around, it led to lots of outages.<p>Suffice to say, my company is losing b2b customers because my company decided to fire people who were keeping the services up and running.
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hornban超过 1 年前
I find this whole &quot;the division in which you work is no longer profitable, so therefore we&#x27;re laying off everyone who worked there&quot; mentality that larger companies have is offensively short-sighted. As if the people who are working in those divisions can&#x27;t adapt to something new that the company wants to grow into. The blog post even mentions that Amazon is lagging in AI, and so the smart move would be to move the people involved into the company&#x27;s AI efforts.<p>I find it very hard to believe that profits are so slim at Amazon that they simply cannot afford to migrate existing employees to something new with growth potential. Where I work, an admittedly very small company by comparison, there is an active effort to hire people that want to stick around for the long-haul. Sure there have been several missteps in product divisions, but as long as the employees involved are at least somewhat competent then there will always be a place for them to work on something. The benefit to doing this is that it creates a culture where everybody working there legitimately wants the company to succeed, and they&#x27;re not thinking about it as merely a step in their own career path.
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dougweltman超过 1 年前
Very few people are needed to run the technology elements of these businesses (let’s exclude warehouse&#x2F;logistics in Amazons case). So why is there an order of magnitude more staff than what’s needed to run those?<p>There’s this idea that tech companies are laying off folks to boost their stock prices by cutting operating expenses. This reflects a <i>fundamental misunderstanding</i> of investors think about these types of companies and what determines their worth.<p>Unlike other kinds of businesses, these companies face very little pressure to control costs. They can overhire, and do. They can overpay employees, and do. They can incinerate cash on wacky projects, and do.<p>This is not because the fundamental constraints of accounting don’t apply to them, but rather because they’re able to optimize for other outcomes because their critical personnel costs are such a tiny portion of what they’re able to bring in: they’re hoarding human resources, they’re trying to develop second acts, they’re able to tolerate bloat and process if they think that’s worth it.<p>When Amazon turns up the heat, it’s not <i>primarily</i> because they’re worried about costs. It’s because they want to get people out of there who don’t belong there, and because return to office in their minds is a good way to make the org more productive over the long term.<p>These companies are trying to get a culture they perceive as being a little over staffed, too bureaucratic, maybe lacking in focus, to turn around.<p>Fixing that has a much bigger impact on long term shareholder value creation — it’s the exact same rationale as overpaying staff, over staffing and spending generously on wacky new bets. Ship faster.
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burlesona超过 1 年前
It sounds like a bad situation at Amazon, but if my company wanted to pay me indefinitely to do nothing, I have plenty of ideas for how I could use the time…
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padthai超过 1 年前
Interesting that they feel that they are “trailing in AI”. The second that they cannot just repackage open source and integrate it in their infra, they throw hands in the air.
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nameoda超过 1 年前
A friend had a similar experience. They got &quot;benched&quot; with no impactful work and promises of impactful project work once headcount is available. In reality, no headcount was available on their team for over 18 months, and there were no prospects in the foreseeable future. Bad performance review feedback with raise not keeping pace with inflation with some random excuse. They got the message and changed jobs, taking their decade of Amazon-internal knowledge with them.
alephnerd超过 1 年前
They&#x27;ve also begun heavily pivoting hiring for dev roles to India now as well. I have cousins who attended no name universities in India getting SWE roles in Amazon - something that was unimaginable 5 years ago - and expanding Dev offices to lower CoL cities like Hyderabad while slowly pivoting away from Bangalore.<p>Addendum:<p>Also, the Indian branches (edit: of companies that aren&#x27;t Amazon) are fairly remote work friendly. Now you have people earning $20-40k&#x2F;yr living in their ancestral towns and villages where median incomes might be $3-5k<p>This is why I warned HN that remote first will make tech more competitive.
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abeppu超过 1 年前
&gt; Amazon won’t fire me<p>Is that still true? If the goal of the company was to move from loud, scary, expensive &quot;layoffs&quot; to push people to quit (cheaper, less scary to the market), surely, &quot;we&#x27;re firing this one person who published a modest amount of info about internal communications, which is a violation of policies in our employee handbook&quot; is cheap, not scary to the market, and sends a nice warning to other employees to not publish this sort of thing in the future?
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yborg超过 1 年前
At any of these companies with monopolist market position, as the writer of this article notes, the only way to keep increasing profits is to get rid of the talent they overpaid to keep it away from competitors. And you could probably cut 25% of the engineering staff in places like Google and Amazon and actually increase efficiency. A lot of guys like this are going to find themselves having to find other employment elsewhere and having to scrape by on $250K&#x2F;yr...
stickfigure超过 1 年前
I&#x27;m confused. Author&#x27;s team has been eliminated but he is still employed by Amazon? What&#x27;s he doing now?
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steveBK123超过 1 年前
This is actually funny in that it reminds me of a Big Dumb Bank that I worked for post-GFC that was so screwed they were in endless cut mode. One year they basically ran out of money to severance people out by Q3. How the accounting magic of this works is beyond me, but they continued to employ these people instead of laying them off.<p>There were entire disbanded teams that resulted in roving packs of feral engineers showing up to the otherwise business casual office wearing sandals, baseball caps, and tees.. basically screwing around all day but showing up 10-3.<p>Some of them were offered up to existing teams &quot;for free&quot; for the rest of the year, but most of them were so far gone that it wasn&#x27;t worth assigning them any tasks you actually needed done.<p>It&#x27;s interesting that AMZN has gotten to this point so quickly from peak.
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chank超过 1 年前
&gt; I’ve heard similar tactics being used at other companies–mostly large companies–and it’ll only continue in 2024 as they make decisions that drive short term profits over all else.<p>When you tie leadership incentives to short-term profits, that&#x27;s the only type of decision making that will be done.
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Podgajski超过 1 年前
Can’t wait for the AWS outages. Good times ahead!
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nixass超过 1 年前
&gt; There has already been an increase in large scale events (LSE) throughout Amazon , but AWS is so big most customers don’t notice. This is a direct result of RTO and Amazon’s silent sacking of thousands of people.<p>Last sentence is pure bullshit
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thrw542超过 1 年前
“The connection between <i>decimate</i> and the number ten harks back to a brutal practice of the army of ancient Rome. A unit that was guilty of a severe crime (such as mutiny) was punished by selecting and executing one-tenth of its soldiers, thereby scaring the remaining nine-tenths into obedience. The word comes from Latin decem, meaning &quot;ten.&quot; Decimate strayed from its &quot;tenth&quot; meaning and nowadays refers to the act of destroying or hurting something in great numbers.”
hintymad超过 1 年前
&gt; Pipelines, SDKs, and security are centralized. All components of a service team are self-contained as part of that team. It turns out that devops is a very expensive org chart.<p>I wonder why it was not so expensive in Netflix, when Netflix also centralized few and decentralized by default. And I have a different perspective: AWS org charts may look expensive to insiders, but man, it is lean compared to many other companies of much smaller size most likely because AWS strategically chose which components to centralize and which not.
rdl超过 1 年前
Is Amazon equity still backloaded as much as it was before (10% after year 1, 20% after year two, 30%, 40%, vs the 4&#x2F;1 standard at most other companies)?
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snotrockets超过 1 年前
Assuming that AWS (or any tech company) was&#x2F;is better due to engineering doesn&#x27;t align with reality.<p>The reason to choose one public cloud provider over another, or over on-perm, isn&#x27;t their AI strength or the technical qualities of their SaaS offering.
earth2mars超过 1 年前
why silent sacking doesn&#x27;t include severance package?! do you mean forcing people to quit which doesn&#x27;t include severance. If there is no work, can&#x27;t you start working elsewhere (or at least a side consulting job) until they fire and give severance?
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lulznews超过 1 年前
Dude your VP rocks. Amazon sucks, RTO sucks, but none of that bad stuff will happen. The machine will keep chugging, and no one cares.
paxys超过 1 年前
It&#x27;s funny to see new waves of Amazon developers discover year after year after year that they work in a shit engineering culture. No, nothing has changed in the last month or last quarter. The company was always like thus. If you are feeling the heat now it just means that your org is the latest to find itself in the line of fire.<p>And no, the company won&#x27;t cease to exist after you and your colleagues are fired or forced to quit - a new group of fresh faced recruits will take your place and the cycle will continue. There is a reason the company has among the lowest average tenures in tech. This is simply its normal operation.
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htss2013超过 1 年前
People don&#x27;t appreciate what a total mindfuck it is to go through this.<p>- You aren&#x27;t told you&#x27;re being targeted to be managed out when it starts. Managers often do not tell you that you&#x27;re beginning phase 1 of getting managed out, whatever it&#x27;s called.<p>- You&#x27;ve always known this could happen to you or anyone else, so you are always guessing if that email from your boss is just a normal email or was it the beginning of a paper trail? You sense something different, but is that just in your head?<p>- You might think you&#x27;d realize you&#x27;re being managed out, reading the room, but that assumes there&#x27;s a rational foreseeable reason to PIP you. Often there is not. Management gets PIP targets and someone has to get PIPed. It can be you for political reasons above your head that you are oblivious to.<p>- You are subtlely being setup to fail, and even if you don&#x27;t explicitly fail, finding a reason to frame your performance as deficient is always possible.<p>- There is always something you could have done better, and nothing ever goes 100% perfectly. Those things will be magnified 100x. Are they being over magnified? Or were you delusional to minimize them?<p>- To be on the receiving end of this is totally disorienting. It&#x27;s basically gas lighting. Suddenly everything you do is somehow deficient in some way, even when you thought you were doing well. How could you have not realized this? Is this proof you can&#x27;t trust your own judgment? That you&#x27;re incompetent?<p>- Your paper trails are useless. You can always be criticized for subjective reasons, like your style of communication, some 20&#x2F;20 hindsight way you arguably could have done things even better, you&#x27;re &quot;not showing enough leadership&quot;, yes you&#x27;re doing your core job but at your level we also expect XYZ, etc.<p>- This can go on for months, working 60-80 hour weeks, on little sleep, with constant stress. You start to question your ability to assess reality. What else are you missing if you didnt realize you were screwing up so badly? Are you doing this outside of work too?<p>- You think, wait, this has never happened to me before, but maybe it was just luck until now. Was imposter syndrome not a syndrome this whole time? Was I actually an imposter and this is what it feels like to be found out?<p>At the end of this gas lighting psychological manipulation marathon, you have a hard time knowing up from down and you&#x27;re fired.<p>Who do you talk to about this to get your bearings back? You are ashamed this happened, and yet you&#x27;re also not because bullshit PIPing is famous. It&#x27;s not your fault. Or is it? Anyway you probably should find a way to process this right? Or maybe it&#x27;s best to shove it deep into your subconscious and move on.<p>Isn&#x27;t this what therapists are for? Sure, go explain that your mind is vaguely screwed up from getting fired from a $300k&#x2F;year job for...reasons? Did you screw up? Well no, but technically yes, but in reality no? Maybe? How the hell do you even articulate this without sounding like an incoherent spoiled brat?
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