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Norwegian: Bokmål vs. Nynorsk

152 点作者 cmbothwell超过 1 年前

15 条评论

vages超过 1 年前
Norwegian written and pronounced language was actually changed because one digit was added to phone numbers. Here is the long story:<p>Starting after World War Two, the government made an attempt at _merging_ the two written languages. The imagined outcome was named “Samnorsk” (unified Norwegian), led by Språknemnda (The Language committee).<p>The work mainly consisted of changing the grammar of certain words in the bokmål. School textbooks would be rewritten with only the new grammar. Sometimes with comical results, as rhyming words in children’s would no lenger rhyme («Mons er pen.&#x2F; Han er ren -&gt; rein.»)<p>The attempt ultimately failed, and in 1972 Språknemda became Språkrådet (The language council), who maintain the official rules for written Norwegian and who published this article. Merging the two written languages was part of the council’s long term goals until 2002, when it was removed from its mandate.<p>What the government did succeed at was changing the pronunciation of numbers from 20 to 99. It was changed from how the Germans do it (“two and forty”) to how the English do (“forty two”). This was architected by the head of the telephone bureau in 1949, as an error reduction mechanism: When the phone number length increased from 5 to 6 digits, the number of wrongly dialed numbers increased along with it. Internal research at the bureau showed that people would make fewer errors when digits were consistently read from right to left.<p>Further reading (in Norwegian): - <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;snl.no&#x2F;samnorsk" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;snl.no&#x2F;samnorsk</a> - <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;snl.no&#x2F;den_nye_tellemåten" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;snl.no&#x2F;den_nye_tellemåten</a>
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rob74超过 1 年前
&gt; <i>Already around 1830, shortly after Norway’s separation from Denmark, there grew an uncertainty as to what to call the language. Some preferred Danish, just as most American nationals called their language English. Others insisted on Norwegian, just as some Americans preferred American; this usage, however, caused sharp reactions from some Danish circles.</i><p>Reminds me of other countries: Austrians (I think) have settled on calling their language &quot;German&quot; (which it is, of course). In Moldova, the question of whether to call the language &quot;Romanian&quot; (supported by those who want closer ties to Romania) or &quot;Moldavian&quot; (supported by those who favor independence or closer ties to Russia) has become a pretty divisive issue.
ksimukka超过 1 年前
As a student of Bokmål (for immigration and integration), Nynorsk is an ongoing mystery to me.<p>I think that I&#x27;m still at the A level (A1&#x2F;A2). My auditory processing disorder adds an extra variable that I&#x27;m still learning how to work with as an adult. If anyone (in Norway) knows of someone who has or is interested in APD (<a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.statped.no&#x2F;horsel&#x2F;andre-utfordringer&#x2F;auditive-prosesseringsvansker-apd&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.statped.no&#x2F;horsel&#x2F;andre-utfordringer&#x2F;auditive-pr...</a>), please reach out to me.<p>Anyways, always happy to see Norwegian related news in HN.
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goblin89超过 1 年前
The status of Norwegian Nynorsk is reminiscent of Yue&#x2F;Cantonese. In areas where it is native, it’s used in writing more rarely (and <i>very</i> rarely in official writing) compared to Mandarin (a distinct, not mutually intelligible language) or English.<p>Another similarity is that Cantonese, like Nynorsk, is considered higher status where it’s spoken, and like Nynorsk it’s under somewhat of a threat so the communities know they have to keep it strong.<p>What makes it more interesting is that the non-phonetic, semi-ideographic nature of the writing system means no direct unambiguous translation between sound and written symbols—so that you may actually struggle to write down certain turns of spoken Cantonese, even if you are a native speaker!<p>Another difference is that, unlike Nynorsk (which began as “New Norwegian”), Cantonese is old—at least on par with or arguably older compared to languages used for writing in the same area.
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TrackerFF超过 1 年前
Norwegian here.<p>Nynorsk, or &quot;New Norwegian&quot;, is really just used by a people on the south-western part of Norway. Other than that, it is merely a formality.<p>You&#x27;ll have to take the obligatory classes in Jr. HS and HS, but that&#x27;s it for most people.<p>A certain percentage of texts published by state agencies have to be in Nynorsk. The vast majority of Norwegians will never use it.<p>We also have two other languages used here - Sámi, which is the language of the Sámi people - the indigenous people in Norway, and Kven, which is used by Kven people. A Finnish dialect&#x2F;language use by a small number of people in Northern Norway. That is why you can sometimes see three different signs when traveling up North (example: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;gfx.nrk.no&#x2F;zDih8cbMibUfJJo4xiPqRQvkcy07eBhmSISFaS0ScDvQ.jpg" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;gfx.nrk.no&#x2F;zDih8cbMibUfJJo4xiPqRQvkcy07eBhmSISFaS0Sc...</a> )<p>EDIT: And if you travel far enough north-east, to Kirkenes, you will also find some Russian&#x2F;Cyrillic signs
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yalok超过 1 年前
I learned Bokmål Norwegian through my Norwegian friends, and they spoke and wrote to me in it consistently, while some of their patients would use heavy dialect that I didn’t understand at first and was shocked how different it sounded. Hva for noe - sounded as “Ka fo noka” from her mom, shouting through the house, to inquire on something…
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chaosprint超过 1 年前
I passed the A2 exam mostly by following this course:<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.ntnu.edu&#x2F;now&#x2F;1&#x2F;ken" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.ntnu.edu&#x2F;now&#x2F;1&#x2F;ken</a><p>I think it&#x27;s a better way to pick up some Norwegian (compared with existed Apps) if you are interested.
downsplat超过 1 年前
Such a tantalizing article... come on, where are the examples? It&#x27;s like reading a description of a painting without being shown a picture! What are some of these vulgar urban words that the Riksmål elites didn&#x27;t want their children to be taught? What are some of these rural dialectal words that were kept optional but fell out of even moderate Nynorsk? More than a few readers of a chapter-length history of the Norwegian language might have some familiarity with Scandinavian, and the rest of us can handle a few words in italics!
NoZebra120vClip超过 1 年前
Google Translate does not seem to differentiate between these, giving only an option for &quot;Norwegian&quot;, so I have been a bit perplexed about what to put there. Thanks for this explanatory article.
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berkes超过 1 年前
&gt; Danish pronunciation sounds extremely «blurred» in Norwegian (and Swedish) ears.<p>It does to Dutch ears too. Just a few weeks ago, I passed through some tourist-infested area in Amsterdam. &quot;Are these Swedish tourists drunk at this hour in morning already? Oh, wait, they are sober Danes.&quot;
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finnjohnsen2超过 1 年前
Is this on my front page on HN because I&#x27;m Norwegian, or is it there for everyone?
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tamimio超过 1 年前
Languages are fascinating, I always try to learn few words in any language just for the fun of it and to see the sparkling eyes when I say these words in front of the native speakers, they appreciate that you learned some of their languages, except English, people get hostile if you don’t even speak the local accent.
jwr超过 1 年前
Which one should I support in my (automatically translated) SaaS?
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unixhero超过 1 年前
Nynorsk fucking sucks and ruined my future.
mistrial9超过 1 年前
this energetic overview necessarily blurs a lot of distinctions when describing the changes in population and language over time. The Vikings (aka pirates) were a dominant form for a very long time, with care going to ferocity and travel skills, not fancy verb forms or leather bound books. It was literally larger and larger Feudal associations that led to merging into this kingdom or that kingdom, and not everyone was in great agreement.<p>&quot;The King has been baptised so all the citizens are now Christian&quot; happened many times. Along with Christianity came fancy verb forms and leather bound books. It is not a complete story the way it is told in this article, which implies that one Kingdom turned into another one.. not tribal raiding groups merging for military protection, and bringing Christianity in for international political purposes.<p>&quot;even today the spoken language in Norway can vary quite a lot&quot; - well, &quot;duh&quot;.. it is local groups maintaining their local identity..<p>The article here restates history from the modern view - everyone is in a Country, and that Country has such a language and writing. I stopped reading and wrote this when the discussion of the &quot;dominant Latins&quot; said some clumsy and misrepresentative thing. Latin (and French)_knowledge was not widespread at all.. so how is it &quot;dominant&quot; ? It is because of the international military trade and treaties that came with it.. local people may or may not have a lot to do with that.<p>source: Conversion of Scandinavia to Christianity , Masters thesis by some lowly grad student; various Wikipedia.. never got further North than Copenhagen..
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