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US developers can offer non-app store purchasing, Apple still collect commission

911 点作者 virgildotcodes超过 1 年前

104 条评论

dang超过 1 年前
Related ongoing thread:<p><i>US Supreme Court declines to hear appeals in Apple-Epic Games legal battle</i> - <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=39014642">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=39014642</a> - Jan 2024 (162 comments)
radley超过 1 年前
There&#x27;s a strong chance this will be shot down as &quot;bad-faith&quot; compliance. Rumor is Epic will quickly contest it [Update: confirmed]<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;twitter.com&#x2F;timsweeneyepic&#x2F;status&#x2F;1747408147260571730?s=61&amp;t=m0AaMhvzMjn6qiSFg9E4lg" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;twitter.com&#x2F;timsweeneyepic&#x2F;status&#x2F;174740814726057173...</a>
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Mikho超过 1 年前
The real problem with the Apple Tax — it ruins value-chain and makes it uneconomical<p>For every value created a customer receives there is value captured by a company paid by this customer. Let&#x27;s say a company creates a service valued as 1X by the customer and the customer pays 1X for that. This balance guarantees accessibility and interest among many customers.<p>Apple tax demands for a customer to pay 1.43X for the same value of 1X (0.43 = 30% of 1.43). It means that the balance is ruined and customers do not get enough value for what they pay. In value, they still get 1X despite paying for 1.43X.<p>There is a price elasticity curve that measures how many clients a company loses after each step of the price increase. In other words, a company gets significantly fewer customers due to the increased price at the same time, it’s unable to benefit from an additional 0.43X customers paid. A drop in the revenue is significant. At the same time, the company needs to increase its marketing budget effectively decreasing its margin even more. That makes business unsustainable.<p>Imagine what a decrease in purchases a product gets if its price is increased by 43%. This ruins all economic assumptions of a business.<p>Not to mention that if it has any network effect, significantly fewer users result in a degraded experience for all users.<p>I&#x27;m considering using PWA for the next mobile app and not investing in native iOS development. Even 50% fewer users due to PWA installation is better than being a lifetime slave to Apple which extorts 43% of what a company gets after Apple TAX from a user.
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GeekyBear超过 1 年前
At this point, it&#x27;s worth remembering that one of the points on which Epic lost was Apple&#x27;s right to take a cut of transactions.<p>I found this discussion of the Apple v. Epic ruling to be informative:<p>&gt; as discussed in the findings of facts, IAP is the method by which Apple collects its licensing fee from developers for the use of Apple’s intellectual property. Even in the absence of IAP, Apple could still charge a commission on developers. It would simply be more difficult for Apple to collect that commission.<p>Indeed, while the Court finds no basis for the specific rate chosen by Apple (i.e., the 30% rate) based on the record, the Court still concludes that Apple is entitled to some compensation for use of its intellectual property.<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;stratechery.com&#x2F;2021&#x2F;the-apple-v-epic-decision&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;stratechery.com&#x2F;2021&#x2F;the-apple-v-epic-decision&#x2F;</a><p>The judge hinted here and there that Epic should have sued over the size of Apple&#x27;s cut, not it&#x27;s right to take a cut.
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toasterlovin超过 1 年前
Some perspective: we sell on Amazon as a 3rd party seller. Amazon takes about 9% of the sale price of our products as their commission (it’s actually 12%, but includes credit card processing). To which you might be inclined to reply, “Ah, but 9% is a reasonable commission, so that’s okay.” But we sell physical goods, which cost money to produce. It’s typical for our products to have 20-25% gross margins. So as a share of what’s left after accounting for the cost to produce and transport our products, Amazon’s commission is similar to Apple’s App Store fee.<p>Just something to think about if you want to argue that a 30% commission is too much for facilitating a high trust purchasing environment with customers who are ready to spend money.<p>Oh yeah, and you’ll never guess what Amazon’s policy is about steering customers off of Amazon.
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Hikikomori超过 1 年前
If you are are ok with this you should also be ok with Apple taking a cut on anything you buy with their browser, why not also take a fee for any data going in and out of your phone.
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lacker超过 1 年前
These conditions are onerous enough that the Kindle app probably still cannot handle in-app purchases. It&#x27;s really pretty annoying that I have to leave the Kindle iOS app and go to the Kindle web app to make a purchase. Obviously it wouldn&#x27;t cost either Apple or Amazon anything to allow this, it wouldn&#x27;t be insecure or unsafe in any way, and it would be nice for consumers. So the fact that Apple and Amazon haven&#x27;t made a deal to allow this indicates to me that Apple is putting its competitive interests ahead of its users interests.<p>Hopefully they all figure something out eventually to allow Kindle purchases from the app.
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kemayo超过 1 年前
This is the same strategy that Apple pursued for dating apps in the Netherlands, after a court there forced them to allow third-party payments a year or two ago. Their argument is that the 15&#x2F;30% is a general fee for use of their infrastructure (App Store, etc), and so they&#x27;ll subtract the approximate cost of payment processing if you&#x27;re handling it yourself but you&#x27;ll still have to pay the rest of the fee to them.<p>Although I think this sounds <i>extremely</i> petty-bullshit of them, in part because that flat 3% is basically calculated to make this cost <i>more</i> for developers who do this overall, the court in the Netherland did go along with it. So we&#x27;ll have to see how it&#x27;ll work out under US courts now.<p>(I feel that them charging <i>some</i> sort of fee for the App Store isn&#x27;t entirely unreasonable, though this seems too high -- we can debate the actual amount that&#x27;d be acceptable. It&#x27;s the lack of an alternative via sideloading that makes this egregious.)
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squigglydonut超过 1 年前
I designed and built my PWA. You just have to define a manifest and set an empty service worker. Boom now your mobile responsive app is a PWA. PWA can look exactly like native app if you are careful with the design. There are navigation patterns that users expect. Make sure to dial in the information hierarchy and design modals correctly. Use familiar iconography and use type that works at small point sizes. This is basic mobile design regardless of platform.<p>Firefox hooks into the Android type display settings. I would like to see chrome support this. It really adds to the app feel.<p>When you make a PWA you have to remake native components. Material Design 3 Web Components is not done yet. Apple has nothing for you so just set your border radius to 17px or whatever they use. Backdrop filter blurs.<p>You don&#x27;t get the advertising from the app and play store. You don&#x27;t get discoverability. However, discoverability is a marketing function. If your acquisition costs are under 30% of your product fees then there is no reason why you can&#x27;t drive users to your mobile optimized website.
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xyst超过 1 年前
Once side loading finalizes (couple of years?) the predatory 27-30% fee will come down really fast. F Apple for this monopoly bs. From the anti-repair shenanigans to their locked down ecosystem. It’s all designed to pump as much money from the consumer AND developers inside the wall.
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IceHegel超过 1 年前
Yes, there&#x27;s a very real sense in which the world is better for having had Apple than not. They have made technological life more beautiful.<p>For that reason, people seem strangely committed to defending them through their rent-seeking period.<p>Apple cannot be both a good company and a monopoly.<p>As their users, we should not accept the false framing and false choice their management presents of either monopolistic control of the mobile ecosystem or endless spam and a Wild West free-for-all.<p>I do not understand why people&#x27;s hearts are still drawn to Apple as the company of Steve Jobs, when it is clearly something very, very different today.
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bob1029超过 1 年前
The solution is very simple for me. Stop participating in the native app ecosystems.<p>The way I see it, you get 2 major pieces of value out of these. First, they serve as a B2C marketing channel. Second, they provide access to certain native hardware features &amp; OS integration.<p>The first point is difficult to contend with, but HN and Twitter seem to serve as a fine counterpoint.<p>For native hardware access, I&#x27;d recommend just trying it in your browser right now. You&#x27;d likely be surprised what works in 2024 on iOS&#x2F;Safari clients. We&#x27;ve been shipping just a webapp to our customers for the last 3-4 years now. We do 2D barcode scanning, signature capture, etc. without any difficulty these days. You DO NOT need a native app to access camera, location, etc. you may find some friction with the web, but you just have to work through it and have patience.<p>Watching founders obsess over App Store presence and its requisite taxation is a bit of a red flag for me regarding the effectiveness of their business model. The open web exists - why haven&#x27;t you even tried it yet? Seems to me it&#x27;s easier to complain about how unfair things are on twitter than it is to iterate into a viable business.
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Wowfunhappy超过 1 年前
This list of requirements to save 3 percentage points is absurd. Approximately no one is going to use this. Which I&#x27;m sure is the point.
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nojvek超过 1 年前
The browser paradigm may be the most open platform we have. I can go to any website, download whatever I want and not pay tax to some central authority.<p>I can inspect the dom, scripts run on my device, the network. Set adblockers and script filters.<p>None of those freedoms are available on smartphone apps. As a dev you pay the trillion dollar mega corps, as a consumer you also pay to them.<p>The app paradigm could have been as open as the web, but we voted with our dollars for a walled garden with 30% tax.
thrdbndndn超过 1 年前
For me, the glaring issue here is not whether 27% is fair or not. Rather, it&#x27;s the absence of an alternative method to do so without relying on Apple&#x27;s &quot;services.&quot;<p>Naturally, there can be endless debates about whether this is acceptable or not. However, the reality is that there is a striking disparity between the iOS&#x27;s model and that of Android, PC, or even Mac.
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DeathArrow超过 1 年前
So as a customer, if you give Apple lots of money for a phone, you also give them the right to milk you more through app store and commissions. Developers aren&#x27;t bringing money from home to pay Apple, they are paying Apple from what end users pay.<p>I hope Apple will be forced to allow third party app stores and sideloading apps.
virgildotcodes超过 1 年前
Apologies for the maimed title. The maximum title length for submissions is too restrictive IMO.
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markonen超过 1 年前
Apple&#x27;s policies for external purchases are hilarous. The only goal is to be punitive.<p>For the External Link Account Entitlement that &quot;reader” apps can use to link to purchase flows off-app, Apple <i>forbids</i> offering IAP in the same app. Why? Because they think this will discourage adoption.<p>For the new StoreKit External Purchase Link Entitlement that other apps can use for the same exact thing, Apple <i>requires</i> an IAP alternative. Why? Because they think this, too, will discourage adoption.
TheCapeGreek超过 1 年前
Caveat: I am not a mobile dev, I don&#x27;t really have skin in the game here. I stay away because App &amp; Play store sound like nightmare environments to do business with faceless entities and automated bans without appeal.<p>It really seems to me the best way around this is:<p>- Don&#x27;t sell on the Apple store at all with no alternative (likely same for Google if your particular gripe is the 30%). Stick with web.<p>- Push more PWAs to your customers. Sounds like Apple is finally opening up a bit on that front? Maybe the EU antitrust will open the doors wider.<p>- Sell ONLY on Apple (and again Google), then 15-30% is your norm, and you won&#x27;t feel the &quot;loss&quot; of not having a middleman.<p>The argument about 30% being standard and OK to me only makes sense without the $99&#x2F;yr license in place, and if only comparing to other locked down platforms. E.g. with Steam, there&#x27;s plenty of ways to distribute via Steam and still have them take a lower cut, or you have other stores you can sell on. It&#x27;s only the consoles that have the same kind of locked-down environment, but even then those are explicitly niche devices whereas phones are general-purpose.
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danpalmer超过 1 年前
This is not new. The 27% fee has been around for over a year now I think, may have been announced in 2021 even, for markets outside the US that already mandate this. I&#x27;ve seen these screens already in apps.
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app_boi92超过 1 年前
Feel free to correct me if I&#x27;m wrong on this. Consider the following scenario:<p>Developer puts out ads on Facebook (or some other way of getting traffic). Traffic flows to the developer&#x27;s checkout page, where they buy access to in app content on an external website. Then they are linked to the app store where they can download the app and access the content.<p>Apple is paid <i>no commission</i> on this transaction. They only require commissions paid when the customer is sent to the website FROM the app store and checks out within 7 days.<p>If this is in fact true, then payment &#x2F; support service recommendations would be great to hear right now!!
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ken47超过 1 年前
I see lots of comments about potential alternatives to 30%. But the only way to really find new optima is to mandate App Store competition. Force Apple and Google to expose the exact API that their app stores are using and allow the laws of economics to determine the outcome. Even under these conditions, only mega corporations and organizations could compete with Google and Apple, so it’s not utopia, but way better than what we’ve got.
squigglydonut超过 1 年前
I&#x27;m an app designer and was able to get my PWA to look very native. This is my way to avoid the app store fees which are absolutely ridiculous. Apps take up too much storage space anyways.
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thih9超过 1 年前
This feels absurd to the point of comedy. The only thing missing is a monkey’s paw curling its finger and some ominous voice “Epic, be careful what you wish for”.
DeathArrow超过 1 年前
Unfortunately we only have to pick between iOS and Android devices. Android devices are generally less expensive and maybe you have more freedom in some particular situations. Apple devices have better CPUs.<p>What I would like to see instead is more competition in the OS market and the hardware to be like PCs: you buy whatever device you like and install whatever software you want from wherever you want.
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madeofpalk超过 1 年前
People are focusing on the 27% cut, but a page worth of restrictions on how you’re allowed to link to your own website is just complete bullshit.<p>&gt; <i>In accordance with the entitlement agreement, the link may inform users about where and how to purchase those in-app purchase items, and the fact that such items may be available for a comparatively lower price</i><p>The fact that you must apply for permission to tell your users that you even have off-app purchase items is bullshit.<p>Apple’s welcome to make the rules of their own platform (within reason), but it’s garbage that developers aren’t even able to say the rules exist. If Apple believes they’re so right and just, why must they leave users uninformed?<p>What’s the good faith argument for any of this? I want to see Craig Federighi on stage at WWDC announcing and this revolutionary new &quot;link&quot; API, demoing how great the scary warning screens are.
mvdtnz超过 1 年前
This is absolutely outrageous. I simply cannot believe people still support this awful company.
joshspankit超过 1 年前
There’s a lot to talk about but I’m calling this out as trivial, easy, and in bad faith:<p>&gt; No redirecting, intermediate links, or URL tracking parameters are allowed.<p>It’s 100% clear to me that the link they let you use will be a redirected intermediate link through Apple’s servers, probably with tracking params (and at the very least with OS-level tracking).
jongjong超过 1 年前
I always hated native apps and found them to be very high friction, both as a user and as a developer. I have no idea what&#x27;s wrong with people. Why are people so keen to install untrusted, intrusive software onto their devices when they can access them in the safety of their browser without downloading anything. When I was younger, people were very careful about what software they installed on their machines, you&#x27;d have to be insane to opt to install some software if you could just run it directly from a browser. Aside from a few niche use cases where the app needs access to device sensors, it really doesn&#x27;t make sense.<p>With Apple, I feel like people are under some kind of spell. I cannot relate to their behavior. It&#x27;s ironic that they&#x27;ve become exactly what they were claiming to be working against in their 1984 advert. It&#x27;s has become some kind of big brother mind control operation.
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pritambarhate超过 1 年前
I think all developers should start charging 30% more (op top of the price for which it sells on website.) if user is purchasing via In App Purchases. Slowly all users will come to know that if you buy on web generally it&#x27;s cheaper and they will change their behaviour and IAP sells will drop significantly.
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jjcm超过 1 年前
So I&#x27;m about to embark on a submission process for an iOS app that has a subscription currently, and I&#x27;m wondering if any app store pros can give advice, especially in light of this.<p>The app is a reddit-like site where you subscribe for an amount you choose (say $10&#x2F;mo), the site takes a $1 cut, and the remaining $9 gets distributed between everything you upvote that month (creators get sent this money into their stripe connect account).<p>How much does Apple take as part of this? Do they take 27% of the $1&#x2F;mo server fee, or 27% of the $10&#x2F;mo total (thus taking away from money users would be sending from each other)?<p>It&#x27;s a weird situation because it ends up being a subscription-based digital wallet, and I&#x27;m unsure how these are treated or what the right approach is when submitting the app.
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MobileVet超过 1 年前
I am curious if any businesses operating with the ‘pay Apple their cut’ on outside sales actually do?<p>Does Apple have the manpower to chase every developer for that fee? Do they really expect to collect it or is it more of a threat?<p>Any HN people with first hand knowledge of a business paying that fee?
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tommymachine超过 1 年前
This appears to be a huge boon, due to the fact that developers can now send their external marketing directly to their own online landing&#x2F;checkout pages. Apple appears to be only charging commission for traffic sent there and that checks out within 7 days of clicking the in app link.<p>In other words, a developer can have a Facebook ad or similar go directly to the checkout page and buy the app there, bypassing the app store commission for traffic the developer is bringing to the app store themselves. Feel free to correct me if I&#x27;m wrong on this.<p>This being the case, any recommendations for carts &#x2F; processing services &#x2F; etc that would be ideally positioned for this kind of use are MASSIVELY welcome!!!
themerone超过 1 年前
A 27% cut will make a 3rd party payment service a non starter for all but the biggest app.<p>For small players a 3% savings isn&#x27;t worth the administrative overhead of paying apple separately.<p>Apple is begging for another lawsuit over this.
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mattdesl超过 1 年前
Can’t a developer just add a message to their website to circumvent this link tax? “Open this again in any regular browser to receive a 27% discount.”<p>I don’t see anything that prohibits this: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;developer.apple.com&#x2F;support&#x2F;storekit-external-entitlement-us&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;developer.apple.com&#x2F;support&#x2F;storekit-external-entitl...</a><p>Apple cannot (or, per antitrust law, should not) tell a developer how to design and sell their merchandise <i>in their web based storefronts</i>.
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siliconc0w超过 1 年前
I hope the US copies EU regulation and puts a stop to this BS. Imagine a world where the companies hoarding capital and talent have to actually compete rather than sit back and collect rent.
rkagerer超过 1 年前
What we need is a third-party appstore, for BOTH platforms (iOS and Android), that offers curated titles and filtering options users actually want (e.g. like by &quot;ad-free&quot; and &quot;no in-app purchases&quot;).<p>If something like that had been in incubation and available for lawyers to draw on for their arguments I wonder if it would have impacted the case (especially when judge says things like &quot;failed to prove the existence of substantially less restrictive alternatives&quot;).
vonwoodson超过 1 年前
This discussion always drives my mind back to what it&#x27;s like to be a &quot;Corporate Citizen&quot; Like, when the free market has completely taken over: What is it actually going to be like. I think Apple is the closest to serving many of the &quot;essential government functions&quot; of my life: Health Records, Credit Card and currency (in Apple Cash), Identification Card&#x2F;Drivers License... I don&#x27;t see this trend going away as time moves on, either.<p>In this light, I see what Apple is doing to Epic as totally legit: It&#x27;s like any other government taxing a business within it&#x27;s borders. Apple needs to take a cut to make sure that the infrastructure for all these services it provides to <i>us</i> citizens is funded. I&#x27;d be happy with a 95% income tax on The 1%: why wouldn&#x27;t I be happy with a 20-something% tax on Epic? Epic going to the Supreme Court is similar to them asking to not have to pay taxes in <i>my</i> &#x27;Nation of Apple&#x27; and I&#x27;m not sure that I want that.<p>Of course, this is from a certain frame of thought, and may not actually be how I genuinely feel about this. More of a thought experiment.
sidkshatriya超过 1 年前
Amazon sells its Kindle books outside the Apple App Store. Once purchased, the book is available to view in your Kindle app. My guess is that Amazon doesn&#x27;t pay Apple any $ for books sold there.<p>How is this current practice of Amazon consistent with the (new?) rules in which all sales taking place even outside the store will attract commision from Apple ?<p>It is because Kindle does not offer ANY sales at all through its own Apple app ? Some other reason ?
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janalsncm超过 1 年前
As an end user this isn’t great. One of the great things about Apple subscriptions is how easy it is to see them all in one place and to cancel them.
mzs超过 1 年前
Apple just admitted that 3% is the reasonable cost for bandwidth and service related to an online storefront and that their margin is huge.
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nerdawson超过 1 年前
They want a 27% commission on sales made from those links and the right to audit companies&#x27; accounts for compliance.<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;twitter.com&#x2F;dhh&#x2F;status&#x2F;1747406430054097099" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;twitter.com&#x2F;dhh&#x2F;status&#x2F;1747406430054097099</a><p>It&#x27;s beyond a joke. Between that and the payment processing fees, you&#x27;re no better off. In fact, you get all of the same costs but none of the benefits of Apple&#x27;s app store native payment infrastructure.
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Gareth321超过 1 年前
It’s clear that countries are going to need to legislate this. Existing anti-trust laws are insufficient.
kazinator超过 1 年前
How is it non-app store purchasing if Apple still gets the commission?<p>If Apple gets commission, the sale took place on Apple&#x27;s cyberturf, all of which can be identified as being their app store.<p>The user&#x27;s Apple device where they made this purchase is effectively a branch location of the that store.
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encoderer超过 1 年前
Apple does provide a lot of value with the App Store. But when I compare it to my business (saas), adding stripe + aws is about 12% of sales. I feel for my App Store brethren. It would be hard to accept 30%
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CodinM超过 1 年前
This thread has a lot of weird turns I&#x27;d not expect.<p>&quot;All they do is steal 30% from society&quot; - objectively it&#x27;s for providing a service, an infrastructure, a very solid user market, a very solid developer experience (you have to build for a limited number of iOS versions, you don&#x27;t have to test on a gazillion devices with different flavors of Android), a slightly higher income userbase, and a few others.<p>Seeing the whole thing simply as &quot;theft&quot; boggles my mind, especially coming from people working in or around this industry.
insane_dreamer超过 1 年前
I see the App Store no different than any retailer. If you want to sell your products in WalMart, then you agree to their terms (which happen to be quite onerous), and they set the price that they want. If you don&#x27;t like it, you don&#x27;t have to sell your product in Walmart. You can still sell it at Target (if you agree to their terms), etc., or you can try to open your own store and try to reach your target customers directly (and incur the related costs of doing so).
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David_FF超过 1 年前
Maybe I missed it<p>But how will they actually know how much money developers are making via external web purchasing? Audits?<p>In my opinion working with both Apple and Google&#x27;s billing libraries is pretty painful. Many developers use third parties to make it easier like Qonversion or RevenueCat. These all have to go through Apple and Google respectively<p>If you can just have a web page to do it, that seems easier actually. You can just save if the user is paid or not directly in your backend after they make a purchase
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EMIRELADERO超过 1 年前
This is in response to them losing that part of the Epic lawsuit and exhausting all appeals (SCOTUS denied cert yesterday). It&#x27;s not a voluntary decision.
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jsyang00超过 1 年前
Why not just force apps to collect payment through a money order sent on the 2nd Thursday of each month between 1 and 2pm. Sounds about as compelling.
the_gastropod超过 1 年前
It really feels like Apple keeps making these unforced errors. While they&#x27;re working to hype up their new product launch coming up, giving prominent tech journalists early access &#x2F; hands-on demos to stir up some good press, they pull shit like this completely destroying any good feelings people may have about the brand.<p>I don&#x27;t get it. Absolutely greedy and (seemingly?) short-sighted.
jbverschoor超过 1 年前
Exactly what I thought. Makes total sense.. 3% for payments. I’m surprised anyone is surprised as this is what was discussed many times
CountSessine超过 1 年前
At some point I guess Apple will have to give up the 30% and instead charge more directly for their costs associated with running the App Store, namely hosting costs (probably very small) and the cost of testing and reviews (probably larger). If there are competitive App Store&#x27;s, that where all of the free software will wind up.
ThinkBeat超过 1 年前
I am not that happy with this.<p>From a legal perspective and the size of Apple I understand why this happened and for the most part I fully agree with the legal arguments.<p>I went with Android for a well over a decade and it was fun. So many things I could do with it and so many ways to fiddle with it even rooting it. My nerd in me like that.<p>I had an iPhone for a while and the lack of customizations and fiddling was quite annoying, switched back, then a few years ago I went and got an iPhone for reals (I mean fully knowing what I was giving up).<p>I was tired of all the Android problems. I didn&#x27;t enjoy fiddling anymore I had no longer an interest in rooting it. and I was pissed off about 6000 different Android implementations and how older phones lost Android updates quickly leaving plausible security vulnerabilities.<p>(I suppose Google phones get all the updates for a long time). and usually, one vendor would make their own &quot;enhancements&quot; to the OS anyways.<p>I became the enemy and embraced the walled garden, the shitty game of move your new app icon around and around to try to fit it where you want it, more expensive hardware&#x2F;cables etc. In my opinion there is less shit in the app store as well.<p>As long as the sideloading and whatever else does not impact my phone as long as I dont do it myself I am fine with it. It it leads to more vulnerabilities and other problems for everyone I dont like it.<p>It is not the 100% great mobile phone. (hello my classic BB), and at times inconvenient but I prefer a nice walled garden and limits on what I can do.<p>I also prefer all my family and friends to be on the iPhone, if and only if I know I will be providing endless technical support<p>&quot;uh you need to fix my cellphone!&quot; &gt; ok.,. what phone do you have? Well its a model XXX from YYY company about 4 years old. &gt; Do you know what version of Android its running? ¹ Sure its the VVV version customized for YYY but it has not been updated for over year. &gt; Buy an iPhone.<p>another day<p>&quot;uh you need to fix my cellphone!&quot; &gt; ok.,. what phone do you have? &quot; uh it is an iPhone 10&quot; &gt; great. &gt; what is the problem?<p>¹ In real life there is no way the people I provide with unwilling endless technical support would have even a small inkling of what OS it is running. but it fit the made-up dialog.
backtoyoujim超过 1 年前
Does apple still charge people annually to develop apps for apple ?<p>Because charging people to charge them again to make Apple useful seems abusive.
gigel82超过 1 年前
I used to get all riled up about these assholes but then took a step back, looked at my own usage (which I believe is typical for the majority) and realized I didn&#x27;t purchase an app (or did an IAP) in over 5 years.<p>So let them burn through their goodwill and suck the gambling whales dry, why do I need to get my blood pressure up over their greed...
todd3834超过 1 年前
It’s very interesting to read through the threads. I’m seeing two sides of the argument but clearly the majority here are not happy about what Apple is doing or anyone who tries to stick up for it. I hope people continue to share their perspective. Even if it is not popular to the HN crowd because I appreciate a balanced discussion.
d3vmax超过 1 年前
This made sense earlier when the app store started, now with abundant bandwidth and reduced cost of hosting, and increase in number of developers&#x2F;apps and other player&#x2F;markets, they should reduce it to 5%. It is like how we treasured 5 mb internet on mobile devices, now we use that in a sec.
kesavvaranasi超过 1 年前
I don&#x27;t understand why Apple is asking for a commission if the developer is implementing their own payment flow. If Apple is still mandating that you offer in-app purchase as an option alongside a custom payment flow, then Apple charging a commission for both options seems excessive.
ken47超过 1 年前
Imagine a world where laws forced Apple to enable feature an Apple-compatible version of the Play Store alongside the App Store and vice versa. Likewise with Kindle and any other developer that wants to adhere to a legally mandated App Store API.<p>How would that not be a net positive for the mobile device ecosystem?
laktak超过 1 年前
If Apple collects a commission here, then why doesn&#x27;t it collect one on advertising in the app?
Gareth321超过 1 年前
&gt; Links cannot be placed directly on an in-app purchase screen or in the in-app purchase flow.<p>This and the other rules amount to effective evasion of the ruling. If the link isn’t allowed under almost all circumstances, it’s hard to see how Apple is complying in good faith.
ksec超过 1 年前
What a bloody pile of mess. In order to guard their interest, and everyone wants a pieces of it, now we have an Apple ecosystem that is... just ugly. And it is only gong to get worse.<p>I often wonder had Apple lowered their In-App purchase to 10% would we still have the same problem.
6510超过 1 年前
I&#x27;m kinda confused so I asked bing<p>&gt;The difference between self employed and employed is that123:<p>&gt; Self-employed workers work for themselves as sole proprietors or independent contractors, while employees work for an organization under a contract of service.<p>&gt; Self-employed workers have more control over their work, but also more risks and responsibilities, while employees have more stability and benefits, but also more restrictions and obligations.<p>&gt; Self-employed workers pay their own taxes and expenses, while employees have their taxes withheld and their benefits provided by their employer.<p>Apple also withholds VAT for the &quot;employee&quot;.<p>Don&#x27;t get me wrong, legally they are not employees. The interesting thing is how much it is like employment. You work for a single company, you have to do as told, they can fire you at any moment. When that happens you wont be able to sell to your customers because they are not your customers.
cubefox超过 1 年前
Meanwhile: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.macrumors.com&#x2F;2024&#x2F;01&#x2F;15&#x2F;app-store-to-be-split-in-two&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.macrumors.com&#x2F;2024&#x2F;01&#x2F;15&#x2F;app-store-to-be-split-i...</a>
blackqueeriroh超过 1 年前
For everyone who thinks Google is some paragon of cooperation and openness as compared to Apple, they just got slammed in court effectively attempting to call their platform open while paying off companies to stay in the Play Store in a very similar case to Epic v. Apple. In fact, this was Epic v. Google. Why did Google lose and Apple largely win?<p>Because Apple had always said their platform was closed and were up front about it.<p>Google, on the other hand, called their platform open and then engaged in anti-competitive behavior to get the benefits of a closed ecosystem.<p>You might not like Apple’s approach, but at least they’re up front and honest about it.<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.bloomberglaw.com&#x2F;antitrust&#x2F;alphabet-loses-google-play-antitrust-fight-with-epic-games" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.bloomberglaw.com&#x2F;antitrust&#x2F;alphabet-loses-googl...</a>
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belter超过 1 年前
&quot;Supreme Court rebuffs Apple&#x27;s appeal on app payments&quot; - <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=39021897">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=39021897</a>
beretguy超过 1 年前
People should completely abandon app development and make PWAs instead.
politician超过 1 年前
&gt; [3% discount]<p>&gt; Apps that use the StoreKit External Purchase Link must continue to offer in-app purchases as an option.<p>This is worthless. I cannot believe a court allowed Apple to get away with such a useless remedy.
dpc_01234超过 1 年前
I wish Apple could do 90% cut. Serves their users and developers right.<p>If you don&#x27;t think it&#x27;s worth it, no one is forcing you to use it or developer your software for them. :)
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amelius超过 1 年前
This only shows that users still don&#x27;t fully own their phone.
bmitc超过 1 年前
I don&#x27;t understand this at all. How is this an improvement? This is effectively an in-app purchase just done through the browser instead. There seems to be no difference.
lofaszvanitt超过 1 年前
The first thing that should be regulated is the app search functionality. Randomized results for a given query, max. 1 ad supported first entries per page.
anonymous344超过 1 年前
How is an has been okay all this time for example Trello in the app store? Users subsribe to it&#x27;s paid-tiers only from their website
aleksandrvin超过 1 年前
‪Should Apple let an alternative way to install ios ipados app first, and then mention about devs benefiting from their user base? ‬
throw03172019超过 1 年前
Are there any details of how Apple actually collects that money? Self reporting? Only Apple Pay? What’s the process like?
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lemax超过 1 年前
All this to allow you to process the payment yourself. This is just the industry standard 3% payment processing fee.
gigatexal超过 1 年前
Apple will continue to collect 12 to 27 percent comissions ... Apple is the best &#x2F; ultimate troll. Hilarious.
apple4ever超过 1 年前
Utterly ridiculous for Apple to do this. It&#x27;s so consumer unfriendly.
turquoisevar超过 1 年前
People seem to be very poorly informed and are up in arms over the 27%.<p>This is directly part of the underlying court decisions.<p>While the courts haven’t explicitly stated a percentage, and the initial judge questioned the percentage, it was made clear by both the district court as well as the appeals court that Apple can still charge a commission even when payment takes place outside of Apple’s IAP system.<p>The courts consider it payment for Apple’s IP that’s directly tied to the sales, not IAP:<p>“In essence, Apple uses the DPLA to license its IP to developers in exchange for a $99 fee and an ongoing 30% commission on developers&#x27; iOS revenue.”<p>The district court even went as far as to outright state Apple’s entitlement to a commission, despite hemming and hawing about the exact rate (and ultimately not making a decision on it):<p>“Even in the absence of IAP, Apple could still charge a commission on developers. It would simply be more difficult for Apple to collect that commission”<p>“Indeed, while the Court finds no basis for the specific rate chosen by Apple (i.e., the 30% rate) based on the record, the Court still concludes that Apple is entitled to some compensation for use of its intellectual property.”<p>“Apple is entitled to license its intellectual property for a fee, and to further guard against the uncompensated use of its intellectual property. The requirement of usage of IAP accomplishes this goal in the easiest and most direct manner, whereas Epic Games&#x27; only proposed alternative would severely undermine it. Indeed, to the extent Epic Games suggests that Apple receive nothing from in-app purchases made on its platform, such a remedy is inconsistent with prevailing intellectual property law.”<p>“Suffice it to say, IAP is not merely a payment processing system, as Epic Games suggests, but a comprehensive system to collect commission and manage in-app payments.”<p>The appellate court echoed these sentiments, if not outright making stronger statements about this, while at the same time complaining between the lines that the district court wanted its cake and eat it too by insisting that the anti-steering provisions are not kosher while simultaneously stating that it would be too cumbersome for Apple to retroactively audit sales to collect their commission.<p>Either way, the long and short of it is that Apple collecting a commission from developers using third party payment processors has the blessing of the courts.<p>Even when the district court in particular isn’t entirely happy with the rate of the commission while simultaneously not willing to make an official determination on the rate because Epic never fought the rate, rather the existence of the commission itself.<p>Now that SCOTUS has declined to look at it, this situation, including the blessing to collect a commission even when using third party payment processors, is the law of the land.
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deadbabe超过 1 年前
Why not merely raise prices if the cut Apple takes bothers you so much?
jijji超过 1 年前
And Apple wonders why Android has 70% market share (and growing)
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chubs超过 1 年前
One interesting thing to me is that apple has now put a price tag on their payments processing: 3% (being the discount of this 27% vs the normal 30%). Their payments are pretty convenient, i&#x27;m surprised they don&#x27;t consider it worth eg 4-5%.<p>So they&#x27;re basically saying that their SDKs (+ distribution) are worth 27% of sales.<p>I wonder if one could make the argument in court that if you don&#x27;t use their SDK, eg you use react native or flutter, you shouldn&#x27;t pay 27%. Yes, i know those frameworks still use apple&#x27;s SDKs, but they commoditise them such that you might make the argument these SDKs aren&#x27;t worth any more than any other sdk such as android.<p>(I&#x27;m skipping distribution in my argument too, for simplicity&#x27;s sake)
1letterunixname超过 1 年前
And you wonder about the corrosive influence of billionaires giving lavish vacations to SCOTUS judges and senators who accept gold bars from foreign governments affects legal rulings or legislation presented spoon-fed by lobbyists. Of course the Apple mafia will still get a cut of something they don&#x27;t deserve because the law and the legislature are on their side.
secondcoming超过 1 年前
Apple isn&#x27;t a company, it&#x27;s an economy
chucke1992超过 1 年前
I think DOJ lawsuit will be interesting.
InsomniacL超过 1 年前
&gt; &quot;...the StoreKit External Purchase Link Entitlement (US) to include a link to the developer’s website that informs users of other ways to purchase digital goods or services.&quot;<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;developer.apple.com&#x2F;support&#x2F;storekit-external-entitlement-us&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;developer.apple.com&#x2F;support&#x2F;storekit-external-entitl...</a><p>I&#x27;m guessing Apple were required to provide developers with Alternative Payment options and not &#x27;a link to a webpage that informs users&#x27;...
1vuio0pswjnm7超过 1 年前
&quot;Entitlement&quot;<p>Interesting terminology.
matt3210超过 1 年前
I’m not leaving the app to pay…
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talldatethrow超过 1 年前
Can someone give me the TLDR of this questions answer..<p>If I have a web based saas currently where I charge customers $300 a month.. if I were to make an iOS app for them to use, would apple want a % of that?
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andersa超过 1 年前
It&#x27;s incredible that there are actually people in this thread arguing in favor of Apple. You don&#x27;t need to defend the trillion dollar company. They are not your friend, they do not care about you, your work or your life. All they do is steal 30% from society that could be used for more productive purposes than make a few people who already have everything even richer.
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bradgessler超过 1 年前
Am I getting this right? Say I use Stripe as my payment processor. Stripe takes 2.9% + $0.30, then Apple takes 27% so I&#x27;m at 29.9% + $0.30 being taken out of however much I charge for my app? For a $10 app, $0.30 is 3% putting the fee at 32.9%.<p>For the privilege of paying 2.9% more, my users get to see a scary privacy message and when I bill the customer a year later for a subscription, there&#x27;s a 20-30% chance that their credit card will have expired.<p>If this isn&#x27;t a monopoly abusing its dominate market position, then what is?
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mortenjorck超过 1 年前
Demanding a 27% commission for transactions taking place entirely outside of Apple infrastructure is obviously a finger in the eye, but I&#x27;m not entirely sure whose eye yet. Epic? The court? The FTC? The developer community? All of the above?
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55555超过 1 年前
Google should update the Chrome TOS so that they get 30% of all sales placed through Chrome, regardless of payment processor used. They&#x27;re missing out on trillions of dollars and all they have to do is update their TOS!
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llm_nerd超过 1 年前
This feels like a straw that breaks the camel&#x27;s back kind of moment. Apple has gotten away with a tremendous amount (being an <i>astonishingly</i> greedy company. All companies are de facto greedy, but Apple is just next level in its egregious entitlement), but there is simply zero way this stands.<p>And FWIW, I&#x27;m an Apple fan and find Tim S a completely unsympathetic character. But seeing the hilariously absurd lengths that people will go to justify Apple&#x27;s outrageous greed grows old.
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nsagent超过 1 年前
I&#x27;ve got to say, Apple definitely lost me on this one. This feels bad enough that despite having an iPhone since the iPhone 3G, I&#x27;ll likely jump ship when I need to upgrade unless they make a U-turn on this move.<p>EDIT: Wow, getting downvoted for saying Apple is losing me as a customer with this move is surprising. I don&#x27;t understand how people on Hacker News of all places want conformity of thought. I switched from using Microsoft products to Apple when Vista came out. Microsoft lost my trust by that point and Macs were a viable alternative. Despite having a Macbook, iPhone, and an Apple Watch it seems like Apple is starting to lose me with this move.
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sprite超过 1 年前
<a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;developer.apple.com&#x2F;support&#x2F;storekit-external-entitlement-us&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;developer.apple.com&#x2F;support&#x2F;storekit-external-entitl...</a><p>They are taking 27%, between that and processing fees you might as well use In App Purchases.<p>&quot;Apple’s commission will be 27% on proceeds you earn from sales (“transactions“) to the user for digital goods or services on your website after a link out (i.e., they tap “Continue” on the system disclosure sheet), provided that the sale was initiated within seven days and the digital goods or services can be used in an app. This includes (a) any applicable taxes and (b) any adjustments for refunds, reversals and chargebacks. For auto-renewing subscriptions, (i) a sale initiated, including with a free trial or offer, within seven days after a link out is a transaction; and (ii) each subsequent auto-renewal after the subscription is initiated is also a transaction.] If you’re a participant in the Small Business Program, or if the transaction is an auto-renewal in the second year or later of an auto-renewing subscription, the commission will be 12%. These commission rates apply to all amounts paid by each user net of transaction taxes charged by you. You will be responsible for the collection and remittance of any applicable taxes for sales processed by a third-party payment provider. If you adopt this entitlement, you will be required to provide transaction reports within 15 calendar days following the end of each calendar month. Even if there were no transactions, you’re required to provide a report stating that is the case. If the cadence changes, we will update this page. To learn about the details that will need to be included in the report, view example reports. In the future, if Apple develops an API to facilitate reporting, you will be required to adopt such API within 30 days with an update of your app and follow the timing and requirements provided.&quot;
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poundofshrimp超过 1 年前
To see why Apple’s mandatory commissions are absurd, compare phones to desktop computers. There is no fundamental difference between the two. So, why is it okay to install whatever you want and pay for it directly on desktops, but on phones it is not?<p>The “better security” argument just doesn’t make sense in this context.
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lxgr超过 1 年前
So Apple will be collecting 27% (instead of 30%) for... what exactly?<p>They might just get away with something as crass in a vacuum, but given that the DMA will go into effect very soon, there will be a point of reference in a similar economy, and I don&#x27;t think it&#x27;ll be pretty for Apple.<p>US regulators (federal or state; I could see something equivalent to GDPR and CCPA) will be taking a very close look.
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meteor333超过 1 年前
wow! Looks like Apple finally caved.<p>This is a huge win for the developers, despite that pesky warning. They can still ask users to circumvent apple pay&#x2F;in-app purchases and get away by not giving a revenue cut to Apple.
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newprint超过 1 年前
My feeling is that this is a half measure and any half measure allow for the &quot;freedom of interpretations&quot;. AAPL will put a lot of road blocks around external purchase links (result of recent ruling). I expect apps that will use external purchase links to be scrutinize a lot more, unexpectedly take off from the AAPL app store for made-up reasons and myriad of other road blocks around the ruling. You know, AAPL needs it&#x27;s 30% cut.
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riscy超过 1 年前
The Play Store takes exactly same 15%&#x2F;30% commission from their developers as the App Store that everyone here is venting about. The key thing is how their payment processing discounts work.<p>The Play Store offers a 4% discount on the commission for alternate payment processing only in India or South Korea [1]. In comparison, Apple is doing a 3% discount, but only in the US. Perhaps this will expand further to compete for discounts between the two stores?<p>[1] <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;support.google.com&#x2F;googleplay&#x2F;android-developer&#x2F;answer&#x2F;112622" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;support.google.com&#x2F;googleplay&#x2F;android-developer&#x2F;answ...</a>
Mutjake超过 1 年前
Probably an unpopular opinion, but as an Apple user it is okay for me to pay 30% extra (which I often do instead of using Android and getting certain apps for free), so I avoid having to sideload Epic&#x2F;Facebook&#x2F;whatnot stuff from their own mandatory app store + having the hassle of figuring out if there&#x27;s a subscription model and how difficult it is to terminate, how to handle refunds, what darkpattern analytics are included in the appstore binary etc. etc.<p>If you need certain amount of money per user for the product to be profitable, raise the price to account for Apple&#x27;s cut. But please do not force me to install app stores from companies which have their lifeblood in data brokering my life. At least I have an understanding with Apple that if they go haywire with that stuff (like it was close with the whole CSAM scanning debacle which damaged my trust in Apple and I started considering alternatives) they will lose my hardware purchases as well.
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sashank_1509超过 1 年前
Yes Apple is obviously engaging in rent seeking behavior to profit off developers. But do they deserve to do so?<p>First they invented the smart phone and App Store. That gives them a right to rent seeking by most people’s standards for a particular period of time. It’s why we have patents. Perhaps you think 16 years is a long time but then Mickey Mouse’s patent expired recently.<p>Second they managed to stave off competition and still maintain a large market share. Smartphones had a large number of companies get into this business, including all of big tech at one point (remember fire phone?) and yet Apple has not barely managed to survive, instead it dominated. That has to count for something. The real problem is this society instinctively sides for the little guy and against the big guy. Sometimes that makes sense, but just like you wouldn’t try to change the rules to reduce the amount Roger Federer earns, there’s no sense in trying to hobble a winning dominant company like Apple. Even as a developer (who’s never worked for Apple), I think developers should just deal with it even if it sucks because I prefer a society where winners get to win. If your product is good enough, you can make users work to pay you and still be a market leader (think Netflix or Kindle store, both of which I buy from my browser).
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