Ask HN: How to be productive without making lists?

I got this book [0] by Mark Forster [1], tried the techniques and found out what works for me. It is a gold mine.<p>The author describes in his blog [2] many more of his ideas and experiments about productivity.<p>[0] <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.goodreads.com&#x2F;book&#x2F;show&#x2F;26171733-secrets-of-productive-people" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.goodreads.com&#x2F;book&#x2F;show&#x2F;26171733-secrets-of-prod...</a><p>[1] <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.m.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Mark_Forster_(author)" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.m.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Mark_Forster_(author)</a><p>[2] <a href="http:&#x2F;&#x2F;markforster.squarespace.com" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;markforster.squarespace.com</a>

Generally I keep two different lists. One is for things I have to do on at a specific time (generally by day). This is often work related things, appointments, etc<p>Then I have a list for “Someday Maybe”. The wording of this is important. At the moment I add the task it feels pretty important, but often that feeling fades. I purposefully let that list cook for a while and come back to it one a weekly basis. If the thing still seems exciting I’ll pick it up.<p>This is pretty vague and not exactly how I do things day to day, but the key points are: reframing some tasks as “someday” or “maybe”. That reduces guilt if I don’t end up doing them but even more importantly it reduces mental clutter. It’s on paper so I can forget about it for now and refocus on the moment

Who said you had to create schedules as a part of accumulating information? If by schedule, you mean that a you&#x27;ve created a long list of topics that you haven&#x27;t learned and feel you should, then of course that will feel intimidating.<p>But playing a game and learning about a game are two separate activities. The key is to spend your time actually playing the game. Playing the game consistently will feed the drive to learn more about it, and if both of those things feel like a chore, then why are you doing it in the first place?

I keep lists for everything, and I found that removing the time requirements from most things alleviated the stress. Now I just keep lists of things I need&#x2F;want to remember.<p>I actually have a note&#x2F;list for Magic The Gathering (I have one for every game I play). I keep a list of every deck I have with ideas and things to try for each one. When I see a card or ability I want to try, I write it down to remember. I also keep a list of new deck ideas.<p>For learning things, I tend to make lists of concepts and sub-concepts to learn, but I don&#x27;t worry about when I need to learn it. I just get to it whenever. All my lists are organized into note files on specific topics, so whenever I want to remember what I need to do for any particular thing, I just open that note and see how my progress is on that thing.<p>It&#x27;s important to be okay with deleting a bunch of stuff out of your lists when you don&#x27;t need it anymore. Sometimes you make a big nice list about something, but then you finish the project and half the stuff isn&#x27;t checked off the list. Sometimes you just need to re-work the list.<p>So for me, the notes and lists are a memory aid. When I go back to learning something, I don&#x27;t need to do a bunch of prerequisite analysis every time to remember what I was supposed to be doing. I just re-get my memory from my notes and take off with it.

For me, lists work great... as long as they don&#x27;t turn into obligations.<p>I keep a legal pad on my desk. I keep a running list of anything I want to learn, accomplish, research, etc. If I finish an item, I mark through it. Once I turn a page, I rarely revisit. If something is important, it&#x27;ll make a second or third appearance on the list and eventually get scratched off. Once I fill up a pad, I throw it away and start fresh.<p>Treating lists, and really, nearly all my personal notes, as disposable is incredibly freeing.

&gt; How do you be productive without lists?<p>This is a really interesting discussion. I’m a professional musician. If a work that I have to prepare isn’t already “in my fingers” then I have to make up a process for learning it. Difficulty&#x2F;length&#x2F;complexity vs time are my variables to work with. I don’t make lists. Instead, I mark my musical score extensively, bracketing what will need more attention. Then I structure my practice sessions around those zones. But, as a rule, I don’t “program” them in a rigid way. I do make use of journal in which I record what I worked on today. From that, my clarity about where to go next emerges. I suppose for me it’s about injecting just the right amount of structure while allowing the whole process to still be a creative act. Maybe something in that for you?<p>Reading through the comments, I wonder if you put unreasonable pressure on yourself about the pace of your acquisition of the material. If the pursuit is truly for enjoyment, then letting go of expectations about the outcome can paradoxically lead to better outcomes! But maybe I’m over-interpreting here.<p>For your hobby of music though, constantly pivoting between the technical and what goes on in the sound world can only help. Again, with music, patience and careful listening to yourself are key. I tell my students that the practice room is less like a gym and more like a laboratory. Bringing a spirit of experimentation and playfulness can help in ways that over-objectifying the material and over-structuring it cannot. And in the making of music, knowing and doing have to be unified; that&#x27;s the nature of embodied cognition.

I use lists, a lot of them. I have Daily, Weekly, and Yearly lists (all on paper). I don&#x27;t have them to be productive, I have them so that I don&#x27;t have to remember the things on the lists. I want my head to be empty of all the things I cannot do right now. For me, the best way to achieve that, is to write the things I want to do in the future. That way, they get out of my head and I can focus on my daily business.<p>For me, the same trick also works for other things that are on my mind. Especially the things that would usually keep me up at night. I write them down, so that they get out of my head.

Maybe you aren’t as interested in Magic as you thought you were. I find that when I’m really into something new, or any project, I will sometimes make a list, but then completely ignore it while I follow various tangents I get taken on. By the time I look at my list again, I can cross off half of it. Some lists are made just to get things out of your head to free the mind up to explore more freely.<p>In a similar way, at the start of each year I make a list of a bunch of stuff I want to do that year. I don’t use that list to schedule things out and make sure I get them done. In fact, I rarely look at it. The act of making the list puts the ideas in my mind, and when opportunities present themselves, I’m more likely to notice them and say yes to the opportunity. By the end of the year I end up being able to cross off a fair number of them.<p>When I treat lists as things I must get done, I rarely do them. List making then turns into a form of procrastination. I make the list and feel like I did something, and then I don’t feel like I have to do the thing, because it’s on the list for later. If it’s not a thing I need to do, it won’t get done.<p>Another thing I try to keep in mind was a technique I saw where you write down everything you could to do for a certain goal, but then look at the list and think about what the actual goal is as pick out the few things on the list that would actually allow you to call the goal done… and actually enjoy doing it. It seems like number one on the list would be finding people to play Magic with regularly and doing that. I imagine that would inform and prompt everything else you might want to do on that topic, and give it purpose.

Todo lists can quickly become wishlists. The initial enthusiasm for a hobby turns into extremely unrealistic grand plans which then lead to disappointment when the lofty goals aren&#x27;t met.<p>Try to keep your planning focus on now and next. What will you do today and what&#x27;s the next step. Don&#x27;t try to make a year step by step plan because the new knowledge you gain will inevitably change your original plan.<p>For me, ADHD was a huge part of my over planning problem. I knew I had issues finishing things, so I thought time management books and todolists would help. They did not. If you feel inhibited by your lack of focus and ability to do things then don&#x27;t hesitate to get checked out by a professional.

It&#x27;s not really the list, but the &quot;grindset&quot; meanings you&#x27;ve assigned to it. Here&#x27;s an example of two contrasting approaches to organizing yourself, not to Magic but to learning art:<p>1. Open up Youtube, search &quot;art tutorial&quot;, sign up for the first course that looks good, fill up a spreadsheet with tasks like &quot;learn anatomy&quot;, and start setting your alarm earlier.<p>2. Create a &quot;arts station&quot; in your room. It has a lamp, a drawing board, a bookstand, some books that were recommended when you shopped around, some art supplies you wanted to try, and various bins and folders to store things.<p>I think nearly everyone will prefer 2, if they take a moment to consider it. The method of 1 is totally focused on achieving a &quot;competitive artist identity&quot; - the student most likely wants to know how to be a &quot;real&quot; or &quot;normal&quot; artist and if they are &quot;good enough&quot; yet. The intense structure and schedule makes it performative - you can be Seen working hard at your art. You are going to be out there on social media chasing those likes and follows.<p>But the method of 2 is more ambiguous: you&#x27;ve created an investment in a place you can go to and explore as you wish, and which is self-contained: it does not compromise your comfort, and therefore is likely to give you a good feeling when you return to it. You took the time to purchase materials that are, even if they are not perfect, came with good recommendations. You did not rush to attach yourself to a specific instructor, which might lead you down some alleys that slow down learning, but also lets you assert yourself every step of the way: you are likely to intrinsically value the act of study, versus showing the results to someone. It might become a hobby that you can&#x27;t find time to pursue seriously, but it won&#x27;t burn you out either.<p>If you want to feel good about something you do, try to make it a good space that you want to return to. I think it really is that simple, and it applies to all kinds of spaces big and small, whether it&#x27;s what you&#x27;re wearing at the moment, or how you organize your digital life, or the events you attend or help host.

Tentatively, have you tried commit-by-commit?<p>You come up with a project, and if it can be expressed in computation, complete each step with a merge to mainline. You only create the story <i>after</i> you&#x27;ve finished it.<p>Then you never have lists; you only have the journey ahead, and a logbook of past travels.<p>You never have anything pending, because you surmounted every challenge (or are stuck on the current one). Then, you know where last left it.

&gt; And almost in real time, I could see my interest in Magic wane and disappear. Instead of being fun, I began to see Magic as a chore, rather than something I just wanted to do for fun.<p>You&#x27;re using the same productivity strategies used for school or work for the sake of something meant to be leisure<p>The lists or structures aren&#x27;t bad in themselves, just you&#x27;re applying them in the wrong place

I think you need goals documented in some fashion to be truly productive.<p>Maybe not a task list but some list of your goals across days&#x2F;weeks&#x2F;months, otherwise you’re just noodling around or putting out fires. Or maybe I just have too much stuff going on at work. :-)<p>For me, having a Someday&#x2F;Maybe list is critical. I am not focusing on it every day but I am periodically reviewing it.

I think it depends on what you want to be productive _in_<p>If you’re a project manager like me, lists are probably a good option.<p>If you’re an artist like a painter… I’d imagine very different ways to be productive.<p>When I write code I like to explore problems and features through developing and testing things, no need for lists until I run into enough bugs or ideas I want to pursue that I need to write them down.

Like all forms of success, one does not achieve productivity. One declares it.<p>Ergo the best way to be productive is to choose a definition of “productivity” that aligns with what you already did or what is easy to do or what you plan to do regardless or etc.<p>Was this worth your time?<p>Well you learned something about yourself.<p>Good luck.

I don&#x27;t think that structure is the issue. In this case, where you want to preserve creativity and spontaneity, continue to make lists but only refer back to them when you have time to do something and you need ideas.

Had the same problem. My secret, don’t write it down, keep the list in your mind.

What was your original impetus to start structuring your learning - was it because you felt like your improvement was plateauing, or because you had things you were interested in to keep track of?

its not the list its you just lossing track, vision and focus<p>why would you do that at first<p>making list etc etc etc its because you going deep, you just like all those kids that wanna be progamer but crying and begging to be home when they are on pro gamer program which force them to play be better and live a far from their parents