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Cyclist hit by driverless Waymo car in San Francisco, police say

323 点作者 mayakacz超过 1 年前

54 条评论

ruuda超过 1 年前
Everybody here is discussing the car and the cyclist, but I don&#x27;t see anybody considering the possibility that the intersection design is unsafe. That there is a stop sign is a pretty bad signal in itself, Not Just Bikes made a video explaining this: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.youtube.com&#x2F;watch?v=42oQN7fy_eM" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.youtube.com&#x2F;watch?v=42oQN7fy_eM</a>
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sandos超过 1 年前
Uhh.... thinking ahead of risks, and especially hidden cyclists and pedestrians is something that is taught in basic drivers ed here in Sweden. How can this not be the fault of the car? It should have realized that, yes, I am completely blind regarding whoever comes out from behind the truck, I should slow down.<p>I guess there are some qualifications here. If there was a severely low probability of a cyclist there, and especially if cycling was forbidden there, then this does not apply in the same way, although you should always be aware that others might break rules, and you are responsible for minimzing risks even to those. But, you can not slow down for every possibly suividal maniac throwing themselves out in the road where you are not supposed to be.<p>I still lean towards the car not being cautious enough.
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topkai22超过 1 年前
I looked up the cited street in street view- there are stop signs in all 4 directions. I look forward to the full accident report, but from the evidence available it sounds like the cyclist didn’t stop at the sign appropriately.
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CobrastanJorji超过 1 年前
I&#x27;m disappointed in all the folks immediately blaming the cyclist without further information, and I&#x27;m similarly disappointed in all the folks blaming Waymo for the same reason.<p>But, unless they somehow have extra information we&#x27;re not privy to, I&#x27;m much more disappointed in the S.F. Supervisor quoted in the article, Shamann Walton, for immediately going online to say &quot;so much for safety.&quot; Us internet weenies are always going to have our hot takes, but someone in charge of the city has a responsibility to at least try to be better.
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dmamills超过 1 年前
&gt; CITIZEN, you have been struck by an autonomous vehicle! I have reported the impact data to help us improve our platform. Thank you for your feedback.
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smsm42超过 1 年前
The fundamental problem of self-driving cars in cities is that they are expected to be 100% safe. They could be 10 times as safe as regular cars, but it wouldn&#x27;t save them from headlines of &quot;robot car kills an innocent person&quot;. And given how chaotic and unpredictable situation on the roads in a densely populated city without designated spaces for cyclists can be, 100% safety is impossible. Even if AI itself if perfect, there&#x27;s physics of mass, inertia, velocity, visibility, etc. - which sometimes will cause situations that lead to collisions, unless the self-driving cars either are physically segregated or limited to ridiculously low speeds where they become useless.<p>Solution 1: make separate bike paths. Totally works in many cities, likely can&#x27;t happen in SF because of so many reasons. Solution 2: ban self-driving cars. Solution 3: pay megabucks to PR company which would create some kind of a narrative where safety is much less important than the benefits of the self-driving cars, and if you say otherwise, you are a bad person and should be cancelled. Not sure if it&#x27;s possible but it probably less impossible than making a 100% safe self-driving car.<p>A sane solution would be to figure out how much safety we expect, take effort to make it as close to 100% as possible while realizing it&#x27;s never 100%, and rationally investigate each case of failure, while recognizing that some amount of them are inevitable. But that would be totally outdated and unusual pattern of behavior, so I don&#x27;t expect it to happen in practice.
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xianshou超过 1 年前
If Waymo is truly as much better than Cruise as the statistics claim, this is a perfect opportunity to release the full video of the incident. Most collisions are avoidable, but a few are the result of a perfect storm of conditions that would be difficult to navigate for even the most skilled human driver. To know whether the truck&#x27;s occlusion of the cyclist is one of those cases requires the actual footage.
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mr3martinis超过 1 年前
I was hit while riding a bike in a situation that sounds similar: I was biking behind a car. A driver headed in the opposite direction turned left and hit me. I was difficult for the turning driver to see because I was obscured by the vehicle I was following. The description is totally plausible. It also sounds like the biker may have ignored the stop sign.
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orochimaaru超过 1 年前
&quot;S.F. Supervisor Shamann Walton responded to the news of the collision on social media, saying, “So much for safety.”&quot;<p>Why the snark? It seems it was a hard call, something that a human driver would not have caught and potentially caused a deadlier accident. As I see it there wasn&#x27;t an investigation from the cyclists p.o.v.
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km3r超过 1 年前
So the scenario (as described by waymo, surely with some spin):<p>&quot;Driving through a 4 way intersection, while a large truck is also going through the intersection. As you go through, a biker quickly passes behind the truck with minimal time to react once in sightlines.&quot;<p>A human driver would take significantly longer to react, and could be deadly.<p>Waymo managed to hit the breaks before the collision, potentially leading to only minor scrapes. Feels much better than human would fare in a similar scenario.<p>What I hope Waymo learbx for this, as well applies as similar scenarios: never cross through these zones of high bike traffic when the obstruction from another vehicle prevents a wide enough view to brake before this zone.
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artninja1988超过 1 年前
&gt; According to Waymo, the company’s vehicle fully stopped at a four-way intersection before proceeding into the intersection as a large truck was driving through in the opposite direction. “The cyclist was occluded by the truck and quickly followed behind it, crossing into the Waymo vehicle’s path,” the company said in a statement. “When they became fully visible, our vehicle applied heavy braking but was not able to avoid the collision.”<p>Sounds like it should have wainted for the truck to fully pass then or am I not understanding the situation correctly? Would love it if they released the footage of the accident though
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abalone超过 1 年前
Clearly one of these two scenarios happened:<p>1. The waymo made a left turn into the space occluded by truck, seeing there was no vehicle behind the truck when committing to accelerating through the turn, but not seeing the bike in the adjacent bike line proceeding through the intersection.<p>2. The bike made a left turn from behind the truck into an occluded space, which would be suicidal.<p>While we can’t rule out the latter until we see video, the former seems much more likely. And that strongly suggests it accelerated too quickly. All the talk about the bike not stopping is beside the point — Waymo is supposed to be able to safely handle such situations.
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notatoad超过 1 年前
&gt;Waymo personnel called police.<p>well at least the industry has learned <i>something</i> from the cruise incident.
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XEKEP超过 1 年前
Frankly, I’m impressed with both Waymo the car and Waymo the company reactions to the accident. The only shallow knee-jerk reaction came from S.F. Supervisor Shamann Walton.
source99超过 1 年前
I would love to hear some stats on how many car&#x2F;bike collisions happen every day in SF.
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living_room_pc超过 1 年前
I&#x27;ve almost been killed before as a cyclist, a semi with two trailers did not check his mirrors before merging into me while speeding. Being this close to death was honestly traumatizing. I think it about it way too often. What would have happened to my kids, would I have been killed instantly and so on. I only accepted this event because the road is inherently dangerous.<p>People get hit by cars all of the time, and are usually not reported on unless there is a fatality. The cyclist in this case wasn&#x27;t severely injured, why does it need to be reported? Is it clickbait? Or does SFG want to stir up fears around self driving cars like they are cyclist murder machines?<p>Regardless, I feel like this is not very interesting news until its clear that Waymo or who else has a overall worse track record than the average human. Going back to my near accident, I am excited for self driving cars because they have the potential to be better than humans in the future.
jmward01超过 1 年前
I&#x27;m surprised that nearly all the comments here act as though there are only two parties involved and one of those parties is &#x27;at fault&#x27;. I&#x27;ll throw this out there: Cyclists, drivers, pedestrians and everything in-between (which is a growing category) have to co-exist and the streets of SF don&#x27;t make that easy in many (most?) places. Where is the discussion about how to better design SF streets to make it all work better and safer? I&#x27;ll start. I think we need to shut down more streets to make them pedestrian&#x2F;bike&#x2F;e-bike&#x2F;etc friendly and limit where cars can go during most hours. If thee are more car free pathways then these situations won&#x27;t be possible. These are probably fighting words depending on if you are a cyclist or not. Full disclosure, I used to commute via the wiggle.
knapcio超过 1 年前
I just had this thought (possibly unrelated to this particular situation): We see how many accidents are caused by autonomous vehicles therefore it’s easy to blame them. However what we don’t see is how many accidents did not happen because of autonomous vehicles. I hope regulators consider both cases.
asah超过 1 年前
the cyclist left the scene “reporting only minor scratches.”<p>I&#x27;d never considered it before, but perhaps the endgame is humans getting used to automated taxis like potholes, animals, nails and other road hazards ? And then learning to judge the risk and accepting occasional small crashes like this.
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purplejacket超过 1 年前
Just teleport all the cars into the sun and be done with it. It&#x27;s the only way to be sure.
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ummonk超过 1 年前
It&#x27;s uhclear from the description whether the cyclist was going straight in the same direction as the truck and the Waymo turned into the cyclist, or the cyclist was traveling across the direction of the truck and the Waymo.
gnicholas超过 1 年前
Was there a passenger in the Waymo? I wonder if the vehicle is programmed to take that into account when hitting the brakes or engaging in other unexpected maneuvers. Does the vehicle consider whether a potential victim appears to be breaking the law? That is, would it not brake&#x2F;swerve as harshly (potentially injuring an occupant) if the thing it is trying to avoid is breaking the law (not that I am saying that&#x27;s what&#x27;s happening here — I&#x27;m just setting up the hypothetical where there is a blameless passenger and a potential collision with another vehicle that is at fault).
Animats超过 1 年前
The intersection: [1] Simple 4-way uncontrolled intersection, 4-way stop, bike lanes on three streets. No obvious occlusion problems.<p>Not enough info in the reports to tell who was going which way.<p>[1] <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;earth.google.com&#x2F;web&#x2F;search&#x2F;17th+and+Mississippi+San+Francisco&#x2F;@37.765268,-122.39483981,5.88057113a,68.90237897d,35y,0h,0t,0r" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;earth.google.com&#x2F;web&#x2F;search&#x2F;17th+and+Mississippi+San...</a>
xyst超过 1 年前
Cars (autonomous or not) do not belong in densely urban areas. Let’s finally put an end to the car centric transportation experiment as it has failed on a massive scale.<p>Children death rates largely attributed to vehicle related accidents [1]<p>Trucks&#x2F;SUVs are also a large contributor to GHGs [2]. Anecdotally, the number of solo commuters I see in SUVs&#x2F;trucks&#x2F;“crossovers” is way too fucking high. Truck owners largely hauling air. Maybe see 1-2 trades people on the road.<p>US cities need to follow in the same footsteps as Paris. A ban of large personal vehicles in dense urban cities by making it expensive and as inconvenient as possible. High hourly parking rates. High penalties. Ear mark this money for purposes of removing car centric infrastructure and improving alternative transportation mechanisms.<p>[1] <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.nejm.org&#x2F;doi&#x2F;full&#x2F;10.1056&#x2F;NEJMc2201761" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.nejm.org&#x2F;doi&#x2F;full&#x2F;10.1056&#x2F;NEJMc2201761</a><p>[2] <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.theguardian.com&#x2F;environment&#x2F;ng-interactive&#x2F;2019&#x2F;oct&#x2F;25&#x2F;suvs-second-biggest-cause-of-emissions-rise-figures-reveal" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.theguardian.com&#x2F;environment&#x2F;ng-interactive&#x2F;2019&#x2F;...</a>
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EasyMark超过 1 年前
Now compare # of bicyclists hit per mile that waymo drives vs human drivers and get some perspective. Actuarial stats aren&#x27;t fun but they are necessary for policy.
trhway超过 1 年前
&gt;According to Waymo, the company’s vehicle fully stopped at a four-way intersection before proceeding into the intersection as a large truck was driving through in the opposite direction<p>and that is a traffic violation on the part of Waymo. From the STOP, you can&#x27;t go into intersection until it is clear.
MarkMc超过 1 年前
Waymo really needs to do an A&#x2F;B test to demonstrate the safety of their cars: When you order a ridesharing car you randomly get assigned one of their driverless cars or an Uber with a human driver.<p>After a year see which group has the safest record. Simple.
undersuit超过 1 年前
This is a complete waste of time until video or a decision based on video is released.
concordDance超过 1 年前
I really worry reporting incidents like this will skew the stats against self driving cars.<p>As a cyclist I&#x27;ve been involved in two very minor collisions, neither of which would have been reported. If Waymo is reporting everything that results in just a scrape or bruise it&#x27;s going to have a very inflated accident per mile rate.
matttproud超过 1 年前
Should have worn more reflective clothing …
pesto88超过 1 年前
After driving behind a bunch of Waymo and Cruise vehicles, I&#x27;d much rather be behind&#x2F;around a Waymo car. They drive at normal speeds and are generally more predictable at intersections.
overview超过 1 年前
What if traffic lights emitted their status? Maybe this is already done; if it isn’t, it seems like doing so would greatly improve the safety of autonomous vehicles.
insane_dreamer超过 1 年前
No system is is full-proof (Exhibit A: Jurassic Park ;). Accidents will happen. My question is who will be liable: the owner of the car, or Waymo&#x2F;Cruise&#x2F;Tesla etc.?
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sinuhe69超过 1 年前
Waymo certainly has the video of the collision. Just shows it!
electrondood超过 1 年前
I&#x27;m interested in the ratio of accidents between driverless + cars with drivers, not headlines. That&#x27;s the hero metric.
semireg超过 1 年前
or maybe, Cyclist Hits Waymo
Log_out_超过 1 年前
Imagine if we made separate roads for automated cars and they could pass by all this trouble running on there rail..
dvh超过 1 年前
10 years from now people will be throwing cats in front of self driving cars just to earn a living.
qwerty_clicks超过 1 年前
The system and society built and maintained for cars is the problem. Not robot or human drivers.
SergeAx超过 1 年前
I hope the cyclist will recover completely to enjoy those millions $$$ of compensation.
infecto超过 1 年前
While there is a level of clarity missing in the description, it sure sounds like the bicycle was turning and is entirely their fault. Will hold judgement until there is a full write up. Knowing how most cyclists believe they have the ultimate write of way in SF I am inclined to believe they would blindly turn into the path of traffic.
pb7超过 1 年前
I wouldn’t be surprised if the cyclist blew through the stop sign as is incredibly common.
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Rapzid超过 1 年前
Sooo, is that picture from the incident?<p>Edit: The logo on the steering wheel is Jaguar.. That&#x27;s a bullshit image right?<p>Double Edit:<p>&gt; SFPD said the collision is under investigation and did not provide details on what caused the cyclist and autonomous vehicle to collide<p>So we don&#x27;t even know who hit who lol. &quot;Cyclist and Waymo Collide&quot; sounds more accurate yeah?
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isthatafact超过 1 年前
It is strange to see people assuming blame already given how vague the article is. Even if it turns out that the bike broke a rule, it is possible that the collision was easily avoidable by the car. I am suspicious of the car because self-driving cars do not have a great reputation for dealing well with unusual situations. And how unusual is a situation? Anything that is not a car, truck, or bus doing something in the road?<p>Maybe self-driving cars are too dumb. How many specific types of &quot;unusual&quot; interactions with bikes, walkers, kids, dogs, etc., will each self-driving car AI model need to encounter to build up a large enough training set to learn to avoid a collisions for a specific type of interaction. Will there need to a training set of thousands of crashes or near misses of every precise combination of interactions that can occur with non-negligible global frequency in order for any self-driving car model to avoid collisions that a perfectly attentive, smart, and instant-to-react person would avoid? or do the models allow fuzzy predictions of what (for example) a bike might do even in cases where the model does not comprehend that a particular blob is a person on a bike.
verisimi超过 1 年前
Is there footage? Can we see it? Is there a reason not to see it?
__loam超过 1 年前
As a cyclist I can&#x27;t wait for these things to get more drivers off the streets. They&#x27;re way safer than the average Californian.
linuxhansl超过 1 年前
&gt; S.F. Supervisor Shamann Walton responded to the news of the collision on social media, saying, “So much for safety.”<p>Somehow I would have expected more from a supervisor.<p>Maybe she could have awaited the investigation? Does she have stats on miles driver per accident - for human drivers and autonomous vehicles? Does she have stats on how many cyclist are hit by car with human drivers? Is this an interesting intersection? ...<p>She probably did not ask herself any of this.
aplummer超过 1 年前
I mean, there’s going to be a detailed video of the entire incident right? A driverless car is like a super dashcam - so I look forward to seeing that.
tdy_err超过 1 年前
you guys really love these driverless car accident articles
occz超过 1 年前
HackerNews has a major problem with regards to victim blaming as it pertains to cyclists, and this thread is clear evidence of it.
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soraki_soladead超过 1 年前
Agree that&#x27;s not a great look for the supervisor.<p>Cyclists have a bad rep in SF because many (not all) ride quite dangerously. It&#x27;s a common sight to see cyclists running four-way stop signs and lights without even yielding. I live adjacent to a four-way stop and there&#x27;s an incident where a cyclist fails to yield nearly hourly.<p>Meanwhile, Waymo has millions of incident-free miles and of all the self-driving car companies generally takes safety seriously, even if they will act to protect their interests here.<p>Until more evidence comes out I&#x27;ll be taking Waymo&#x27;s side here. I want safer vehicles and Waymo is currently the best bet.
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belltaco超过 1 年前
I wonder if short range radar or sonar can help tell if there&#x27;s something behind a large truck with the wave or sound reflections. If bats can do it, why can&#x27;t computers?
bsdpufferfish超过 1 年前
Can’t wait for all the comments telling me its ok because people also hit bikers.
monkaiju超过 1 年前
Cant believe these things are allowed on the road...
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