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The Forgiver's Dilemma: Can Letting Go Set You Free?

39 点作者 gamebit07大约 1 年前

23 条评论

travisgriggs大约 1 年前
To start with, I really enjoyed Veritaseum’s recent take on the “Prisoners Dillema” and Game Theory (<a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;m.youtube.com&#x2F;watch?v=mScpHTIi-kM" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;m.youtube.com&#x2F;watch?v=mScpHTIi-kM</a>). It seems appropriate to mention since it circles around this same “dillema” and even places a numerical value on the value of forgiving in game theory simulations. The historical part and layman’s reduction is good to.<p>I think THIS article undersells the “Hold a Grudge” payoff:<p>&gt; David feels justified but might damage the relationship and stop Samantha from learning from her mistake.<p>Most relationships have an ongoing bargaining element to them. Exchange of services, tit for tat, quid pro quo, pay each others backs, etc. Even when we pretend they don’t, or obscure them by wrapping higher level words around them. What makes forgiving hard, is that when we feel wronged, we feel it gives us a better bargaining position go forward. If we forgive, we fear it devalues or weakens our bargaining power going forward. Why else are we so tempted in a debate to rejoin with “yeah, well you do &lt;fill in the blank wrong thing&gt; too!”<p>To clarify, I AM a big fan and proponent of forgiveness. I aspire to be better at. But I think this article has missed a key part of the dillema, by not better portraying the real allure of not forgiving.
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bennettnate5大约 1 年前
The introduction poses a bit of a false dilemma--there&#x27;s a third, unmentioned choice:<p>3. Forgive the individual who has wronged you for their past actions, without continuing the relationship.<p>Forgiving someone for a wrong action they&#x27;ve committed is too often conflated with restoring that person to an identical position of trust and closeness in your life. Forgiveness is about letting go of the past--it doesn&#x27;t mean you also are obliged to recommit to a future.<p>Choosing to put a person back in the same level of trust as that of a stranger is not holding a grudge. Choosing to end a relationship is not holding a grudge. It is simply a reversion to the mean--one that could lead to rebuilding a relationship of trust, or not.
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lfmunoz4大约 1 年前
I don&#x27;t really understand forgiveness. Unfortunately many situations are you have 1 chance and if you mess up it there is absolutely no way to reverse the type of relationship that was created. For example if you are wronged as a child from parent. Yes later as an adult you can &quot;forgive&quot; (whatever that means) but then you are not a child anymore, so it is just not the same. You needed that parent as a child as an adult it is completely different. You aren&#x27;t &quot;holding&quot; onto anything you can accept they did their best it just wasn&#x27;t good enough and there just isn&#x27;t any way to &quot;reverse&quot; that and change your childhood.
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cardanome大约 1 年前
It is fine to cut out people that betray your trust. You don&#x27;t owe anyone to give them a second or third chance.<p>If it is a minor thing and you think they can change and you are willing to keep trusting them, sure forgive them. Otherwise either change or cut your relationship to a new level of trust that expects them to do what they have done once.<p>The only mistake is holding grudges while keeping the relationship. That is unhealthy. You shouldn&#x27;t feel bad for cutting out people. And you don&#x27;t have to forgive. You just have to accept what happened, act accordingly and maybe stop dwelling on it. Acceptance does not need to be forgiveness.
AlanYx大约 1 年前
&gt;While forgiveness offers mental health benefits like reduced stress and anxiety...<p>It&#x27;s not necessarily a direct causal relationship. Research shows that the reduced anxiety associated with forgiveness is more causally connected to intermediate factors such as managing anger and an optimistic&#x2F;hopeful viewpoint rather than forgiveness per se. See e.g.: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov&#x2F;pmc&#x2F;articles&#x2F;PMC10120569&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov&#x2F;pmc&#x2F;articles&#x2F;PMC10120569&#x2F;</a>
erokar大约 1 年前
I think it can set your free, but I don&#x27;t think it&#x27;s a necessity. I think it&#x27;s totally possible to move on and process something without forgiving.<p>There&#x27;s currently a cultural pressure to forgive, as if that&#x27;s the only option. That makes things more difficult for those who are not able to forgive. There is no right way to process a wrong.
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superb-owl大约 1 年前
&quot;Holding on to anger is like grasping a hot coal with the intent of throwing it at someone else; you are the one who gets burned.&quot;<p>--Paraphrasing of the Dhammapada
yowlingcat大约 1 年前
Terrible blog post which starts with a false dichotomy and a poor shoehorning of forgiveness into the prisoner&#x27;s dilemma and works backwards from it.<p>The reason that the prisoner&#x27;s dilemma is an inappropriate analogy is because it lacks the interpersonal element of one prisoner having mistreated the other prisoner and therein placing strain on it. As I expected, the entire post misses this nuance and completely misses the mark on accurately describing any such situation involving forgiveness. To frame the only two choices as &quot;forgive&#x2F;hold a grudge&quot; is hyperbolic and childlike. Realistically, it&#x27;s &quot;get closer&#x2F;create space.&quot; That creates a spectrum of how much space or conversely intimacy each parties want to have with one another. Of course, the blog post misses that dynamic completely in its excitement to apply the prisoner&#x27;s dilemma to a situation it is inappropriate for.<p>I think a much better analogy for forgiveness is that trust is like a bank, or credit. It takes a long time to build up credit, but a very short time to destroy it. So it&#x27;s not impossible to rebuild that trust, but it takes consistent long-term effort from the party that frayed that trust for it to be rebuilt.<p>And from the point of view from the party who is being asked for forgiveness -- the only appropriate way for them to respond without creating an unhealthy situation is to expect the situations that broke that trust to be rectified long-term. Otherwise, it&#x27;s their prerogative to create enough distance for there to be safety. What they choose to do with that distance (hold a grudge or not) is up to them, but holding a temporary grudge is a pretty common way to work through the grief process and pathologizing it seems unrealistic and condescending to me.<p>Holding a permanent grudge seems unhealthy, but I don&#x27;t think that surprises anyone.
derivative7大约 1 年前
It&#x27;s David who has been wronged. It doesn&#x27;t make any sense for the author to chastise him for having feelings about it. And it is not up to the author to prescribe what feelings are &quot;correct&quot; or which ones mean he &quot;defected&quot;. Perhaps if David&#x27;s forgiveness is so important to the author he should have thought of that before doing the wrong or at least make some effort to repair the damage he did.
cobri大约 1 年前
When I think of forgiveness, I think of Corrie Ten Boom forgiving her captor, a guard at the nazi concentration camp where her sister died.<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;guideposts.org&#x2F;positive-living&#x2F;guideposts-classics-corrie-ten-boom-forgiveness&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;guideposts.org&#x2F;positive-living&#x2F;guideposts-classics-c...</a>
Buttons840大约 1 年前
Forgiveness has a double meaning, two separate but closely related concepts; those being:<p>(1) Letting go of negative feelings, a &quot;conscious choice to let go of anger and resentment&quot;. This meaning of the word happens internally and is separate from what happens externally.<p>(2) Letting go of boundaries or consequences for those who have wronged you. This is the &quot;not forgetting&quot; part of &quot;forgive but not forget&quot;. This meaning of the word happens externally. Some people don&#x27;t consider it true forgiveness if you don&#x27;t also let go of the consequences; that is, you must forgive and forget.<p>I would say (1) is always good. Let go of hate for your own mental health. (2) is more situational, but it&#x27;s worth talking about explicitly. It&#x27;s worth determining what exactly &quot;I forgive you&quot; means by talking about how boundaries, trust, and consequences have changed.
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karmakaze大约 1 年前
I sense a false dichotomy&#x2F;dilemma approaching:<p>&gt; The Dilemma: David has two choices
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zer00eyz大约 1 年前
Forgiveness &lt;&gt; Letting go.<p>The idea that these two things are so deeply tied feels very cultural (western? christian?).<p>The parable of the two monks and the woman springs to mind as the best example of breaking the link between letting go and forgiving. If you dont know the parable see: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.alphahome.org&#x2F;two-monks-and-a-woman&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.alphahome.org&#x2F;two-monks-and-a-woman&#x2F;</a><p>Trying to map this issue onto the prisoners dilemma is reductive in a way that makes good content and bad advice. Walking away and letting go is a viable option, and depending on the circumstance might be better for the aggrieved party.
alecco大约 1 年前
No mention of the dimension and consequences of what to forgive. Forgetting to take out the trash is not the same as sleeping with somebody else.<p>&gt; &quot;Once a cheater, always a cheater.&quot; [...] Someone is <i>three times more likely</i> to cheat if they have cheated in the past.<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.du.edu&#x2F;news&#x2F;once-cheater-always-cheater-du-study-examines-serial-infidelity" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.du.edu&#x2F;news&#x2F;once-cheater-always-cheater-du-study...</a>
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settsu大约 1 年前
Can you not forgive someone <i>and</i> distance yourself from them? Did I miss where that is presented as a valid option?
ganzuul大约 1 年前
Forgiveness engages the highest orders of intelligence in us. It is a highly non-linear dynamic which is hard to analyze.
gosub100大约 1 年前
The problem I have with forgiveness is it is antithetical to creating a disincentive for the behavior or action being forgiven. What incentive does a maligned person have to change their behavior if they don&#x27;t have any consequences?
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Delumine大约 1 年前
I forgive, but I don&#x27;t forget. One thing is to not let your emotions affect your health, but if someone has crossed a boundary that has made you weary of them... there&#x27;s no reason to open yourself up to them again.
sorokod大约 1 年前
<i>&quot;Forgiveness is a personal choice&quot;</i><p>This is the core of the matter, and even more: feeling <i>&quot;anger and resentment towards someone who wronged you&quot;</i> in the first place, is a personal choice too.<p>To put it another way, the real question is not <i>&quot;Can Letting Go Set You Free?&quot;</i> but &quot;Who exactly took away your freedom to start with?&quot;<p>The mock game theoretic prelude in the post is confused and obfuscates these simple facts.
1024core大约 1 年前
As someone said, &quot;forgiveness is giving up all hope of a better past for some hope of a better future&quot;.... couldn&#x27;t agree more.
bradley13大约 1 年前
Forgiving someone makes sense, if you believe they honestly made a mistake, or if they are willing to change their future behavior.<p>Forgiving does <i>not</i> make sense, if it just gives a narcissist another shot at you. &quot;Fool me once...&quot;<p>We have neighbors like that. We wanted to believe the best of them, and let them get away with crap 2 or 3 times. You don&#x27;t have to be <i>mad</i> at people like that, you just have to realize that their nature is not going to change.
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keepamovin大约 1 年前
You can forgive but still have nothing to do with the person. Forgiveness doesn&#x27;t have to mean you continue with them in any fashion at all. That&#x27;s a separate choice.<p>Some people stay together, or keep their relationship whatever it was, and don&#x27;t forgive each other, over whatever. Others forgive, but move on, and no longer have anything to do with each other.<p>Forgiveness and maintaining a relationship are independent things. They obviously affect and interact with each other, but they are independent of each other, nonetheless. :)<p>Also, I tend to believe Jesus, as in: turn the other cheek. That&#x27;s a super power, because it actually saves you from doing something stupid that will hurt you more than, or at least as much as, hurt them.<p>Alternately, if you know that karma exists, then forgiveness takes on a different dimension. It&#x27;s actually super badass. Because until you forgive and let go, the universe or karma, is waiting on you to dish out whatever you want to do, before it to takes its own vengeance -- giving you the right of first refusal, or whatever.<p>Once you forgive and let go, you free up the floodgates of karma to find their rightful home. You&#x27;re no longer in the way. The universe doesn&#x27;t have to wait on you anymore giving you the right to first reply, because you&#x27;ve already let go. In effect, you&#x27;ve outsourced your &#x27;revenge&#x27;, so to speak.<p>Until then the universe is waiting on you to make the first move, if you need to, so it probably won&#x27;t do anything, so as to not interfere with your free will to take revenge if you want. But if you forgive, then you get someone else to (the universe, karma) do revenge for you, and you don&#x27;t have to do anything, and nothing bad happens to you. It&#x27;s the perfect badass move.<p>Therefore, forgiveness is the ultimate revenge.<p>But also, in another way, it&#x27;s the ultimate revenge, because by forgiving you are saying, &quot;Your capacity to affect me is so insignificant, you have no power, nothing. Your past actions have become nothing at all, as if they never existed, worthless.&quot;<p>Forgiveness is the ultimate flex.<p>Look what Jesus did on the cross. He pities his killers. Rightly so, but who pulls a flex like that? Jesus does. Pretty cool. And very enlightened.<p>Not easy to do tho. But definitely worth it. :)
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Thoreandan大约 1 年前
Is this site AI generated?