The average Greek is working a full 40% longer than the average German

Facts that reconcile this article with what we already know:<p>1. <i>The Greek labour market is inefficien</i>t. That is why so many people work in small (inefficient) shops. Closed shop regulation for many professions lock people out of high wage occupations. Next to Portugal's 28% high school graduation rate [1] Greece's recent progress (&#60;50% of 25-64 year olds completing high school in 1997 versus 61% today [2]) is valiant but the leaves an uneducated, unproductive generation untouched. It also doesn't account for Greeks' shorter working years.<p>2. <i>Doing business is tough</i>. Here is an anecdote from a financial commentator in Athens:<p>"My friend explained that the owner of the bookstore/café couldn’t get a license to provide coffee. She had tried to just buy a coffee machine and give the coffee away for free, thinking that lingering patrons would boost book sales.  However, giving away coffee was illegal as well. Instead, the owner had to strike a deal with a bar across the street, whereby they make the coffee and the waitress spends all day shuttling between the bar and the bookstore/café. My friend also explained to me that books could not be purchased at the bookstore, as it was after 18h and it is illegal to sell books in Greece beyond that hour. I was in a bookstore/café that could neither sell books nor make coffee." [3]<p>3. <i>The government used cheap loans not for infrastructure or reform, but to pay public servants and build a military</i>.<p>4. <i>The government lied about its finances and is depravedly corrupt</i>.<p>[1] <a href="http://m.upi.com/m/story/UPI-16361301069117/" rel="nofollow">http://m.upi.com/m/story/UPI-16361301069117/</a><p>[2] <a href="http://www.oecd.org/dataoecd/44/21/48657344.pdf" rel="nofollow">http://www.oecd.org/dataoecd/44/21/48657344.pdf</a><p>[3] <a href="http://fabiusmaximus.wordpress.com/2012/03/01/36085/" rel="nofollow">http://fabiusmaximus.wordpress.com/2012/03/01/36085/</a>

That number is (more than) a bit misleading. I don't know where OECD pulls those numbers but it certainly doesn't feel as if Greeks work more than the average european. Shops dont work on sundays, public services are open for only a few hours a day, banks close at 2 etc. Underproductivity is a major issue, most of the work of public services is unnecessary red tape that could be easily automated if the government was willing.<p>Work hours is not our major problem, it's work ethics that are lacking. Hard work is not compensated, it is in fact frowned upon in the public sector, and this situation has even infiltrated much of the private sector. Absurd regulation and governmental dependencies has stifled competition in all but a few sectors (where it works it works reasonably well, such as telecommunications or banking). Couple that with a hostile investing environment and you have the perfect recipe for disaster.<p>That said, Greeks in general are industrious and entrepreneurial, but we tend to channel our inventiveness on finding ways to avoid paying taxes. Personally i believed from the start that Greece should have exited the euro in order to revitalize its dormant economy.

I don't know about Greece, but I grew up in Portugal, and I suspect there are some similarities. People in Portugal "work" long hours. But they also work in a very infective way: long useless meetings, everything requires lengthy social interactions, bizantine bureaucracy, too many managers for too few real workers and so on. There are complex cultural problems that cannot be expressed by such simplistic metrics (and that, unfortunately, cannot be solved with quick fixes).

Well BBC ran a show last night. And it did show the some reasons why Greece is such trouble today.<p>It turns out people spent like crazy, far beyond their means. Things like electricians driving Porsche's and High End Mercedes cars. All of it imported from Germany. When a nation full of people with government included involves in such spending it is but other wise natural that they price for it later on.<p>The anchor did explain that it wasn't just weak institutions and bad government policies. It was reckless lifestyle spending on part of Greeks. It seems many Greeks now want to sell of their costly cars, which are now believed to sell for less than half the price they bought it. So what happens? If they are unable to pay the loans and Bank take the cars. Banks still get only ~50% of what they lent. Its step by step collapse of a whole system.<p>In many ways, the institutions, like Banks are responsible too, for lending out money like that- unchecked. But the whole system is to be blamed. People, Government and everybody else involved.<p>On the other hand they also showed, Germany and how they manage their economy.<p>Now lets look at it, Greeks might work harder than Germans. That is no indication of why Greece is such crisis today. Apart from working and earning you also need to manage your money well. Why spend more than what you can earn?<p>Also scenes in Greece were heart warming, difficult to believe its 21st century Europe. Its almost like a third world country. People begging on streets, sleeping on footpaths, Eating from what is distributed. Couples relying on free clinics for minimal healthcare. As I said, only the Infrastructure looked grand. Otherwise it looked like a third world country.

Greece could be the most productive country in the EU and their government would still be in dire straits. Tax evasion is endemic. It doesn't matter how much people are making if almost nobody is paying their taxes. The Greek government has started cracking down, but Greek disrespect for taxation has been building for generations and won't die easily.

Unfortunately, as long as Greek companies don't pay taxes, Greeks can work as hard as they can the situation will continue to deteriorate.

Time spent in work is not time spent working. All my greek buddies have a easy gong day. They are in work a number of hours, but how productive those hours are who knows.

I'm biased, I'm German.<p>But last year I think there was an article linked that explained how Germans have more productivity output per year than US Americans, although Germans have more holidays.<p>Said that, it's obviously a generalization. I'd think it's very company specific, and depends on many factors, especially the number of "meetings" one has to attend, those that are not work because they have no agenda, no action items, no decisions made etc.

The hours worked figure is misleading. in The Netherlands, Germany etc workforce participation rate of women are much higher. But because women tent to work mostly part-time, especially if they have kids, average the number is really low. Also a lot of young family's split this time as both parent's work part time to spend time with the kids. A normal work week is about 40 hours so if you take out 6 weeks for vacation days, sick days etc your left with 1840 hours. I think a more interesting number would be average work time per household I suspect that the list would look differently.

As I understand it, Greece's problem is the wealthy completely dodge taxes, putting the burden on everyone else (or collapsing the government). It's an idealized version of America's wealthy dream-state.

It does not matter how long you work. What matters is what you get done in a week.

Why is there no mention of taxes here? Isn't the single biggest factor that the Greek tax system is corrupt from the ground up?

Greece's problems are predominantly due to state debt, caused by:<p>1) State Fraud and Corruption: "In early 2010, it was revealed that successive Greek governments had been found to have consistently and deliberately misreported the country's official economic statistics to keep within the monetary union guidelines."<p>2) Public Tax Evasion: "Greece suffers from very high levels of tax evasion. In the last quarter of 2005, tax evasion reached 49%,[142] while in January 2006 it fell to 41.6%.[142] The Tax Justice Network has said that there are over €20 billion in Swiss bank accounts held by Greeks."<p><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_Greece" rel="nofollow">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_Greece</a><p>My personal opinion is that I really don't see why the rest of Europe should bail the Greeks out. They should be booted out of the Euro.<p>&#62; "The average Greek is working a full 40% longer than the average German" Amount of time worked != productivity.

This is not a very relevant statistic. Note for instance the semi-slave factory workers of Asia who on average would work much harder and longer hours than either of these two groups, but end up with much less money and a worse lifestyle. Now why is that? (and how can I fit it within my pre-existing ideological bias?)

As well as the issues other posters have mentioned, the HN title (though not the article) is misleading as the Greek retirement age was 55 until recently.<p>Working 40% longer hours each week, but cutting a decade off your career, does not mean you work 40% longer.

It's very easy to blame simple people for the mess that capitalism created. "They spent a lot". Really? Who's to say? Did you ever wonder how much is spend on high tech weapons by your government? Do you KNOW what YOUR country's public debt is? Are YOU responsible for it (because you're gonna be held accountable for it either way).<p>As easy as it is to buy mainstream media "analysis" it's also just that - mainstream, meaning that it is designed to keep the powers that be from safe from criticism.<p>What happens in Greece is that we're taking loans upon loans to save defaulted banks that are based mainly in Greece, Germany and France. Tax evasion, porsches' and the rest are dirty propaganda designed to hide the crime that's being perpetuated. Saving failed capitalists (mainly banks up to now) by robbing the laymen.<p>As for the tax evasion bit, it's mostly true if we are to speak for a small fraction of the Greek population - namelly the rich and superrich Greeks. All the rest are paying our due for nothing - meaning that our taxes (for me it's about 50% of my gross income) are used to refinance loans and not a single dime goes to roads,health or education.<p>Bear also in mind that for two decades every banks were all over people to persuade them to get loans (sth like the mortgage situation in USA) which were used to buy shit from Germany and France (that's why many say that these countries surplasses are European south deficits). This was evident at a state level too with huge amounts going to buy arms from these two countries. Arms that were of no use.<p>Anyway, this issue is far from simple and what's more you, no matter where you're from, are far from just spectators. What happens in Greece (namely the ripoff of any hind of welfare state + the death of the middle class) is just an experiment to be continued in virtually every western country. It's the way that western capitalism wants to proceed - and bear in mind that what really counts is workers wages (that have been slashed in Greece since the begining of all this crisis) - many big heads waiving their finger have told us Greeks, that the only way to get back to economic development again is to be OK with chinese salaries. We're trying to take that fingers and put them back where they belong and maybe you should try thinking your line of defense against those failed bussinessmen and politicians.<p>A Greek.

Well obviously they should work less then. Most people I know who spend less time working tend to enjoy life more, look better, have more money and live longer.<p>Oh and they are more austere.

We're led to believe the solution to this economic crisis is either getting deeper in debt or more austerity measures (higher taxes, less subsidies) We're led to believe it's either A or B. It's neither A or B for most countries. The truth of the matter is that it's a political problem. We have to reduce the size of the government.

Germans are known for their efficiency, not hard work. Besides, a rested worker is more productive than an overworked one. Germany has got it right.<p>Also, starting a business in Germany is much easier than in Greece - it's on par with the US and UK, while Greece is more restrictive for some reason...

As a Greek I have to admit that this number tells half the truth. The other half is that in terms of productivity Greece is very low. So while we may work a lot more than the average German the quality of the products/services we provide is significantly worse.

Fun thing that this article doesn't mention: in Germany it is very, very common to work extra hours that are not paid and not in the books. This is particularly true for high profile jobs.

I heard some of them even hold two full time jobs at the same time, receiving double salary. And that is in government employment, one of the most stressful jobs available in Greece.

As the 4 columns show, productivity &#38; hours worked go diametrically opposite (negatively correlated). All the countries in the most working list are also in the least productive list. So, it still doesn't change the German assertion that Greeks are not doing enough.<p>Second, the article itself accepts - " because the two labour markets are structured differently, it is actually hard to compare like with like."<p>That means the headline is pointless as it is contradicted by the sentence above.

Very interesting to see that Norway is the 2nd most productive, but ranks 3rd in fewest hours worked! Makes me feel good about leaving work at four. ;)

I am not surprised that the most hard working populations are the most unproductive. The mythical man-hour doesn't just apply to software.

I don't know about Greece but the statistics in the page are quite disturbing to read. You do long work hours to be more productive, but in the end (probably it has more factors than that but I am simplifying it) it doesn't do you any good so you do overtime, which damages your productivity even more...<p>This is the most damned vicious cycle I've ever seen I think...

We keep hearing about the lazy Greeks being bailed out, but isn't it really the banks who lent too much money to Greece who are being bailed out? If the Greeks are so lazy and corrupt, then it was foolish to lend them so much. Why should laziness be punished while foolishness is rewarded? Which poses the greater systemic threat?

This article would be much more beneficial if it went beyond pointing out inaccuracies in common beliefs, and explained where they came from. As given it simply regurgitates self reported government statistics and provides no insight.

There is a difference between "working" and working.. "working" in a highly inefficient system is very different than working fewer hours in a more efficient system

(If you were confused why the "Most X" column is not the same as "Least X" but in reverse order, it's because the list is not exhaustive.)

When we talk about the shortcomings of Greece we should not forget that Greece was under military dictatorship up until the middle of the 70's (as were Spain and Portugal). And there were several terrorist bombings afterwards (<a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Revolutionary_Organization_17_November" rel="nofollow">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Revolutionary_Organization_17_N...</a> just to name one of many groups).<p>As a German I'm getting tired of painting the Greeks as lazy. It's rather their country that's in a mess.

Flagged for politics.

One thing that I always find very unsettling when reading things like that: how Germany is somehow always an epitome of efficiency and productiveness. I am working here and I absolutely do NOT perceive it like that and friends who are also working here confirmed that impression. We are constantly swapping horror-stories of stupid bureaucracy, lengthy extremely bloated processes, having to do things five times, lazy people, stupid people, people who have no idea about their job and no education, tons of stupid "office wars/games" going on, lengthy discussions about very petty things and just for the sake of "but I was actually right" and so on and so forth...<p>The only conclusion is then, it is much much MUCH worse elsewhere? Really?? (Or is this just some sort of "halo effect"?)

working longer hours != working more or harder.<p>much of the financial problems in .gr (and .it) have occurred because many citizens do not declare the bulk of their income, then, lo and behold, there is insufficient tax revenue to pay for the myriad government services. there are more porsche cayennes in .gr than there are people who declared over EUR 50K income in 2010.<p>based on the fact that .gr has essentially committed long-term fraud with their financials i put absolutely zero stock in any claim that "they're working harder than germany".<p>sure, there are some greeks who work really hard and are productive, but if you've spent any decent amount of time in other countries that border the mediterranean sea you'll notice that their definition of "work" is very different from most people from a less pleasant climate.