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U.S. sues Apple, accusing it of maintaining an iPhone monopoly

2546 点作者 jcfrei大约 1 年前

183 条评论

bigtones大约 1 年前
Here is the non-paywall link to the full NYT article I shared: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.nytimes.com&#x2F;2024&#x2F;03&#x2F;21&#x2F;technology&#x2F;apple-doj-lawsuit-antitrust.html?ugrp=c&amp;unlocked_article_code=1.eU0.rOGs.FT-h0cSMdBpB&amp;smid=url-share" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.nytimes.com&#x2F;2024&#x2F;03&#x2F;21&#x2F;technology&#x2F;apple-doj-laws...</a>
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Fripplebubby大约 1 年前
For folks who don&#x27;t have time to read a 90 page document, the case rests on specific claims, not just the general claim that iPhone is a monopoly because it&#x27;s so big. Here are those claims:<p>1. &quot;Super Apps&quot;<p>Apple has restrictions on what they allow on the App Store as far as &quot;Super Apps&quot;, which are apps that might offer a wide variety of different services (specifically, an app which has several &quot;mini programs&quot; within it, like apps within an app). In China, WeChat does many different things, for example, from messaging to payments. This complaint alleges that Apple makes it difficult or impossible to offer this kind of app on their platform. Apple itself offers a &quot;super app&quot; of course, which is the Apple ecosystem of apps.<p>2. Cloud streaming apps<p>Similar to &quot;super apps&quot;, the document alleges that Apple restricts apps which might stream different apps directly to the phone (like video games). It seems there are several roadblocks that Apple has added that make these kinds of apps difficult to release and promote - and of course, Apple offers their own gaming subscription service called Apple Arcade which might be threatened by such a service.<p>3. Messaging interoperability<p>Probably most people are familiar with this already, how messages between (for example) iOS and Android devices do not share the same feature-set.<p>4. Smartwatches<p>Other smart watches than the Apple Watch exist, but the document alleges that Apple restricts the functionality that these devices have access to so that they are less useful than the Apple Watch. Also, the Apple Watch itself does not offer compatibility with Android.<p>5. Digital wallets<p>It is claimed that Apple restricts the APIs available so that only Apple Pay can implement &quot;tap to pay&quot; on iOS. In addition to lock-in, note that Apple also collects fees from banks for using Apple Pay, so they get direct financial benefit in addition to the more nebulous benefit of enhancing the Apple platform.
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aabajian大约 1 年前
The blue background on messages sent between two iMessage users has to be one of the most brilliant vendor lock-in strategies. It is an artificial form of discrimination. I <i>feel</i> a slight annoyance whenever a non-Apple user forms a group chat as I know that person will limit the messaging functionality.<p>In my opinion, the &quot;monopolistic&quot; aspect of it comes down to the fact that they tied it into an otherwise open messaging system - SMS. You cannot separate SMS messages from iMessages (to my knowledge). So, the only way to know a message was sent via SMS is the green background for incoming messages and the green background plus the &quot;sent via SMS&quot; for outgoing messages. This creates a disdain for SMS, and anyone who uses it over iMessage. It is such a strong feeling, that having green messages makes you &quot;uncool&quot;, especially in the younger crowd.<p>On the other hand, I think the long-term sequalae of the blue-green message is to push people to use stand-alone apps like WhatsApp and FB Messenger. I think it&#x27;ll be a hard sell at this point to convince a jury that iMessage is an overt monopoly.<p>The main question I want addressed is: If SMS messages can be directly shown in iMessage, and are not secure, then the argument of not allowing &quot;insecure&quot; 3rd-parties to integrate with iMessage goes out the window. All I want is Android messages to be shown in iMessage. Sure we can make them green, but at least they will be sent over the data network and not SMS.
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brink大约 1 年前
Apple frustrates the hell out of me with their deceptive tactics to create walled gardens while pretending not to. They feign ignorance to keep you stuck and create the illusion of open doors out of their walled garden that are actually broken and they have no interest in fixing.<p>I&#x27;ve been paying for iCloud for my wife&#x27;s iphone for the last several months because of how difficult Apple makes it for us to export our photos. Copying them off the phone with a usb cable is nearly impossible if you don&#x27;t have a macbook, exporting them off of the website is nearly impossible if you have over 1k photos.. meanwhile google takeout allows me to download all of my photos in my browser in a couple clicks. In my experience, it feels like Apple makes getting out of their walled garden as difficult as legally possible.
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amadeuspagel大约 1 年前
&gt; In 2010, a top Apple executive emailed Apple’s then-CEO about an ad for the new Kindle e-reader. The ad began with a woman who was using her iPhone to buy and read books on the Kindle app. She then switches to an Android smartphone and continues to read her books using the same Kindle app. The executive wrote to Jobs: one “message that can’t be missed is that it is easy to switch from iPhone to Android. Not fun to watch.”<p>This attitude explains a lot. This logic applies to every app that&#x27;s available on both iPhone and Android, and to every web app.
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endisneigh大约 1 年前
I assert it is trivial to not buy Apple products, easy to make alternatives to Apple products and easy to buy feature equivalent devices to Apple products.<p>In lieu of this what is the problem? If the government has a problem why not say any code should be able to be run on any device?<p>Honestly I’m curious - what’s the problem? There are android phones that are superior to iPhones and let you run anything you want. Why don’t people buy those?<p>The government seems to want to make it illegal to have a tight experience, but why? There are open alternatives. It’s like complaining that Teslas don’t support CarPlay. Valid, but does it require legislation? Buy another car.<p>FWIW I would love if the government made it so all devices should have an option to run any of your arbitrary code.
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ants_everywhere大约 1 年前
This quote is pretty consistent with my take on what Apple has been up to:<p>&gt; In the end , Apple deploys privacy and security justifications as an elastic shield that can stretch or contract to serve Apple&#x27;s financial and business interests .
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lkrubner大约 1 年前
It&#x27;s been many decades since the USA government attempted to go after a vertical trust. During my lifetime, almost all anti-monopoly action has been against horizontal trusts: companies that gain too much market share for some particular product or service. But there was a time, a long time ago, almost a century ago, when it was common for the government to do this kind of thing, for the benefit of the consumer.
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ChrisMarshallNY大约 1 年前
For folks that have worked with Apple, since the 1980s, it’s sort of surreal, to see this happening.<p>We remember Apple as this scrappy, scruffy outfit, struggling to stay alive.<p>We never dreamed that they would ever get to the place, where they would be sued as a monopoly.<p>I remember the old WWDCs, when you could just walk up to anyone at Apple (including Steve), and just start chatting. If you did talk to Steve, he might not be so nice, responding, but you didn&#x27;t have bodyguards or bouncers.<p>Those days, they are long gone.<p>I have a friend that worked for Apple for a while. He told me that his onboarding training had a special section on dealing with &quot;The Principals.&quot;<p>Basically, if you passed Tim or Craig, or somesuch, in the hallway, you were to act as if they weren&#x27;t there. Avoid eye contact, don&#x27;t say hi, no nods, etc.
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epolanski大约 1 年前
The number of people opposing these changes in this thread because &quot;it will make their walled garden experience worse&quot; without being able to bring up a single valid reason why would that be is astonishing.
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Nifty3929大约 1 年前
Apple has about 60% of the smartphone market in the US, and about 25% globally. That&#x27;s a pretty big stretch to call it a monopoly. There are many non-apple phone options that many consumers easily avail themselves of. And at least one other OS choice as well. All of these are fully supported by the entire ecosystem of telcos.<p>Seems like bullying to score political points to me.
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gnicholas大约 1 年前
&gt; <i>The Justice Department, which began its investigation into Apple in 2019, chose to build a broader and more ambitious case than any other regulator has brought against the company.</i><p>As I was reading the specific charges detailed in the article, I was thinking this case seems like a stretch and will be difficult to prove. Apple will argue that security and&#x2F;or performance reasons drove their decisions related to browser choice, messaging, and Apple wallet. FWIW, I am a former lawyer and spent a little time doing antitrust law for the CA DOJ, a long time ago. Just my two cents.
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standardUser大约 1 年前
The way Apple purposefully aims to ostracize young people who don&#x27;t own&#x2F;can&#x27;t afford an iPhone by defaulting to a proprietary, non-interoperable messaging system has been enough to turn me entirely against the company.
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shuckles大约 1 年前
The super apps point is very interesting. The quotes in the complaint from Apple are exactly right: super apps are sucky and don’t follow native platform conventions. The DOJ then says this is a good thing and pro-consumer innovation. If only they knew the tactics WeChat and others use in China to keep users trapped. (For example: have you ever tried to send an Alipay link through WeChat? Good luck!)
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thiago_fm大约 1 年前
Meanwhile those monopolies can be good for the employees that work there, they are terrible for the rest of the Americans that don&#x27;t, and they make up the majority of Americans.<p>I hope that, in the end, America sees that it is feeding those monopolies itself and even considers joining the European Union in believing that regulations are important.<p>When people come and say that regulations have an impact on innovation, I point out the fact that the object in question isn&#x27;t that innovative. What is so innovative about the iPhone? They just made really good choices and got the rewards from consumers, on making it perhaps the biggest brand in the world.<p>But just by doing great products don&#x27;t give you the right to go against the interests of your own customers or developers that helped you build that platform.<p>I&#x27;m sure by the end of this arc of those platforms that behave more monopolies, governments will realize that by regulating this space, it creates much more economic activity, jobs, and, of course, more space for innovation.
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sircastor大约 1 年前
Lots of comments here about the duopoly of Apple and Google (and I&#x27;m of the opinion that one cannot have a monopoly of its own product)<p>It&#x27;s telling to me that not even Microsoft was able to make this work. There may have been some other internal interests at play, but their historical strength and background was in providing a platform, and then they dropped out when it didn&#x27;t last. Likewise, Palm didn&#x27;t last long in the space either.<p>It&#x27;s not clear to me if there simply is not room for 3+ operating systems in a widely distributed mobile market.
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davidham大约 1 年前
Regarding the Apple Wallet: what about it is uncompetitive? I can add credit cards from many providers to it, and as far as I can tell Apple doesn&#x27;t get anything if I add my Chase card and use it with Apple Pay. I don&#x27;t think banks have to pay Apple anything for their cards to be used in the Apple wallet. Nor do non-financial cards like memberships.
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jtotheh大约 1 年前
A big part of what makes a phone platform competitive is the apps for it. In the Netscape&#x2F;ie days, Netscape ran on many platforms and made the underlying OS less important.this led to Microsoft going to great lengths to make windows&#x2F;ie a walled garden. I saw this in working developing intranet apps. Things that “just worked “ on windows&#x2F;ie didn’t work for Mac&#x2F;linux&#x2F;unix users. The “super app” part of this lawsuit seems to me to describe a sort of layer that allows smaller apps —- “mini programs”— to program to that layer instead of to android&#x2F;ios, and makes the app the same on either OS. It seems apple is being anticompetitive in its actions to prevent this.its sort of like QT letting you have one code base for various os’s. I think apple can try and make the native apps for iOS be better through innovation, but anticompetitive behavior is not ok.<p>From page 29 of the lawsuit: “Apple did not respond to the risk that super apps might disrupt its monopoly by innovating. Instead, Apple exerted its control over app distribution to stifle others&#x27; innovation. Apple created, strategically broadened, and aggressively enforced its App Store Guidelines to effectively block apps from hosting mini programs. Apple&#x27;s conduct disincentivized investments in mini program development and caused U.S. companies to abandon or limit support for the technology in the United States.”<p>If apple has capabilities on iPhones that androids don’t have, then native iOS apps that use them will be more desirable . That would be beneficial competition. If apple makes it hard to write cross platform lowest common denominator apps, that is anticompetitive.
generj大约 1 年前
I think it’s interesting this is one of the first large anti-tech anti-trust lawsuits that has actually materialized since the FTC&#x2F;DOJ signaled interest in going after these giants.<p>Perhaps the case is less complex and this could be brought earlier? Or there were some really damning things in discovery proving other justifications Apple has (security, performance, etc) are secondary to punishing competitors products.<p>The case for consumer harm is much more vague than what other firms are doing in my view. iMessage incompatibility with Android group texts is going to be remedied and maybe deserves a slap on the wrist.
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synergy20大约 1 年前
I&#x27;m working on some apple airplay on non-apple platforms, what a pain.<p>Apple is worse than Microsoft from the past, I mean, 10x or more closed.<p>I don&#x27;t want to touch Apple&#x27;s development ecosystem after this project.<p>I don&#x27;t even want to start on other items like PWA support, single app store, iTunes everything,etc.
throwaway14356大约 1 年前
my mental analogy is this.<p>Say someone produces a reading chair. Now say the company desires to restrict, shape or dictate which books one is allowed to read while sitting in the chair.<p>One could argue they should have such rights but historically it is quite unusual.<p>Similarly, if you pay for the chair and put it in your home it is tempting to think you&#x27;ve purchased it and that you own and control it.<p>The tos could state that the company may at nay time introduce a monthly fee, render the chair unusable or force you to return it without providing a reason.<p>They may revoke the unisex version and force the user to choose a sex or limit the license to a single user.<p>It could introduce tools to measure the weight of the user and use that to determine a violation of the single user agreement.<p>A popular book vendor might require you own one of their competing reading chairs and disallow reading in other chairs.<p>The company building the house can also grant it self all kinds of privileges. You must buy compatible appliances. They can put some weird connectors on them with some drm logic. np<p>The only reason not to have such possibly wonderful eco systems imho is that we already have hundreds of thousands of laws and regulations.<p>If we are to use and make products it should be as simple as possible. Using your weight to check if you are the registered user is not the point to start fixing it. The law should simply state that chair and subscription are separate products.
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hgs3大约 1 年前
Why are antitrust laws so reactive? Why not have proactive laws that break up companies if they grow beyond a certain size criteria? Ideally, the criteria would be aggressive enough to kill large corporations leaving behind only small to medium-sized businesses. The result would be markets with increased competition, more innovation, lower prices, more options for employment and self-employment, and the elimination of Big Corp&#x27;s big money political influence.
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inasio大约 1 年前
I&#x27;m sure there&#x27;s an argument to justify making it super complicated to move your Whatsapp content from IPhone to Android, but at the time I was having to dump the Whatsapp DB to recover the last messages from a dead relative it sure seemed like a convenient way to encourage people to stick around.
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browningstreet大约 1 年前
Irony alert:<p>“YouTube TV rolling out Multiview on iPhone and iPad; Android ‘in the coming months’”<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;9to5google.com&#x2F;2024&#x2F;03&#x2F;20&#x2F;youtube-tv-multiview-iphone-ipad-android&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;9to5google.com&#x2F;2024&#x2F;03&#x2F;20&#x2F;youtube-tv-multiview-iphon...</a>
ben7799大约 1 年前
One thing I don&#x27;t get about this is say DOJ wins and significantly weakens Apple.<p>They&#x27;ll basically hand the market to foreign companies. Seems odd.<p>Google does not need an assist here, last I checked they are doing great, and could fix a lot of the things iPhone users don&#x27;t like about Android if they wanted to.
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Kerbonut大约 1 年前
Next do power tools manufacturers for purposefully making incompatible battery packs and printer manufacturers for incompatible ink cartridges.
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twodave大约 1 年前
Dr. Seuss wrote a book about the blue iMessage bubble. It’s called “The Sneetches”. There are lots of other chat app options that work just as well as iMessage and are cross-platform, but some people like to lord even very superficial superiority over others. And of course Apple fuels this by making it the default.<p>But what would it be like if we all had “stars upon ours”?
kovacs_x大约 1 年前
Whats interesting that most of iphone users i know (eastern europe), doesnt use iMessage at all or only for sms type of messaging only and for rich messaging we use whatsapp, messenger, telegram, signal, slack, discord, viber (?) and my almost first &#x2F; only question question over sms (imessage) always is- do you have whatsapp?<p>apparently its different in states.
patwolf大约 1 年前
&gt; By tightly controlling the user experience on iPhones and other devices, Apple has created what critics call an uneven playing field, where it grants its own products and services access to core features that it denies rivals.<p>I once worked on a large enterprise platform. We developed our own applications for the platform, and other third parties developed applications for the platform. We had to regularly scan our code to make sure we weren&#x27;t inadvertently using internal or non-documented APIs that weren&#x27;t available to third parties.<p>I always assumed this was related to some anti-trust lawsuit, but it always boggled my mind that Apple never seemed to worry about that. Remember the brazenness in which they booted third-party screen time and parental control apps from the app store after the introduction of Screen Time.
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Workaccount2大约 1 年前
iMessage is the most egregious monopolistic tool in Apple&#x27;s garden.<p>If the DOJ accomplishes nothing else besides forcing Apple to open up iMessage, it will be a victory.<p>The lock-in of having functional communication with your friends and family is insane. Take that away and it becomes almost a no-brainier for people to consider competing devices.<p>And no, nobody with an iPhone is interested in switching to whatever messaging app you beg them to use, just so they can message you.
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boringg大约 1 年前
It looked surprisingly pretty weak to my non lawyer eyes. I mean I fully understand that apple business practices are building a moat through highly integrated software but its almost a feature for their system and you buy it knowing that.<p>It feels like it goes back to Android vs Apple approach to their ecosystem.
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rqtwteye大约 1 年前
I don’t know about the legal situation here but I welcome every effort to slow down these super mega corporations. They kill a lot of innovation with their market power. I think we would be way better off if we had many smaller companies. When was the last time something truly innovative came from Apple, Google or MS? They either buy a little innovation or suppress it.
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ApolloFortyNine大约 1 年前
It&#x27;s wild to me to see people defending Apple in the comments here.<p>60% of Americans own a phone they&#x27;re not allowed to install third party apps on, and the ONLY way to get apps is to pay a 30% fee to Apple on every purchase.<p>Imagine if Windows allowed you to only install apps acquired through their store, and with the same 30% fee. Microsoft literally had a huge anti trust case against them for simply setting a default browser, one you could have switched away from at any time.<p>It&#x27;s probably the clearest monopoly in America right now. The damage to consumers is immediately visible (30% fee leaves a lot of margin on the table for competitors). Just look at the number of apps that either don&#x27;t allow you to purchase their subscription on Apple at all, or charge substantially more. It should be a slam dunk case.
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dariosalvi78大约 1 年前
I don&#x27;t understand what people don&#x27;t understand about this. Comments like &quot;you are free to buy another phone&quot; or &quot;regulating is only going to stifle innovation&quot; show an utter ignorance about how tech industry works and a very naive view about capitalism.<p>Apple, as all other big tech companies, grow and thrive because of the ecosystem of companies, suppliers, consumers, researchers, and (importantly) those who offer products and services on top of them. They have built a very successful &quot;platform&quot;: the iPhone. Because a mobile phone is not a &quot;device&quot; any longer, it&#x27;s part of an infrastructure, used by companies, banks, healthcare and governments to offer consumers and citizens services, on which often life depends on. If you build a platform to keep it half-opened, at your convenience, with aggressive lock-in strategies, favouring your own products (apps) at the damage of others, you are playing dirty. No matter how much consumers love and trust you, you are playing dirty at the expenses of all those companies, banks, healthcare and governments that rely on you and at the expenses of consumers and society at large. Apple can still have its own wonderful walled garden for its iPhone, but give the possibility to others to create their own gardens too.<p>Regarding interventionism (ruling, punishing etc.), that&#x27;s done for _protecting_ capitalism. I often read comments on HN that criticise the EU for creating pointless regulations that are anti-competitive or a burden and what not. What these people completely get wrong is that the EU institutions are as capitalistic as they can be. Capitalism is excellent at creating wealth, but it&#x27;s also excellent at destroying itself as proven multiple times. Those regulations are meant to create a _healthy_ capitalism, one that fosters competition, creates jobs and favours consumers. Something that the US used to worry about in the past, but then got too lobbied (or maybe too nationalistic?) and stopped doing it. I am happy that someone is starting to wake up now.<p>Making iPhones more open comes with some risks, yes, but the current situation is unsustainable and something must be done about it.
raminf大约 1 年前
&quot;Super Apps&quot; raise two technical issues:<p>1. Allowing such apps to handle their own payment processing across multiple applications. This means Apple doesn&#x27;t get to force everyone through the in-app purchasing funnel and collect a transaction fee. There could be an exception made that the fee is waived for purchasing physical goods and services through the super-app. This shouldn&#x27;t be a hard change. The big fight will be over selling digital content and what is a fair percentage.<p>2. Allow users to install binary plugins or extensions into a single app without going through an AppStore review. Apple does not currently allow this unless the plugins or extensions are web-based and can run inside the webkit sandbox.<p>They&#x27;ll have a strong argument that forcing them to allow running arbitrary, unreviewed code will open up big security holes.
oatmeal1大约 1 年前
This article actually has the complaint: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.nbcnews.com&#x2F;business&#x2F;business-news&#x2F;apple-sued-doj-antitrust-monopoly-biden-rcna144424" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.nbcnews.com&#x2F;business&#x2F;business-news&#x2F;apple-sued-do...</a>
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aidog大约 1 年前
My biggest complaint is that they don&#x27;t even let you send photos over bluetooth to a non-apple device! There is no way to share files wirelessly.
pquki4大约 1 年前
Even if this eventually fails, I&#x27;ll be very happy to read all the internal Apple documents that come out of this. It&#x27;s going to be fun.
anonymouse008大约 1 年前
&gt; “all that matters is who has the cheapest hardware” and consumers could “buy[] a [expletive] Android for 25 bux at a garage sale and . . . have a solid cloud computing device” that “works fine.”<p>This type of mindset will be the end of Apple.
stephc_int13大约 1 年前
Directly from the source, much better than the NYT paper.<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;twitter.com&#x2F;i&#x2F;status&#x2F;1770844623562547394" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;twitter.com&#x2F;i&#x2F;status&#x2F;1770844623562547394</a>
gavmor大约 1 年前
I&#x27;d like to see them chastised&#x2F;regulated for their anticompetitive browser policies which cripple PWAs and web technologies in general. I was truly thrilled to hear about this month&#x27;s UK and European legislation on the matter.[0]<p>0. Interview with Alex &amp; James Moore, founding members of the Open Web Advocacy (OWA) — <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;pca.st&#x2F;episode&#x2F;62ae3300-16e1-47bb-af24-759c980ba671" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;pca.st&#x2F;episode&#x2F;62ae3300-16e1-47bb-af24-759c980ba671</a>
consultSKI大约 1 年前
Maybe this will get Tim Cook&#x27;s attention?<p>P.S. Tim, you have gone to far. Even if you win the case. #justSayin
kyleomalley大约 1 年前
Security Engineering is mostly about control and minimizing attack surfaces. Apple iOS implements this <i>exceedingly</i> well, with defaults, while still being one of the most widely used platforms on the planet. I believe IOS gets it right the vast majority of the time with solid architectural changes and not just endless patches and knobs that are hidden and forgot about. This is the key difference of &quot;It just works&quot; verses other platforms.<p>If someone wants to run another platform, go for it. Of course are shortcomings in iOS (as with any system), but viewing entire problem space of security and privacy, the default install of IOS + Safari could rarely be any better for the average consumer. This is why Security and Privacy is literally a paid feature of the IOS platform, and anecdotally everyone professional I know (who isn&#x27;t in tech) is using IOS devices.<p>Personally, I&#x27;m planning to blocking RCS and any third party app stores on any of my own (and families) devices -- again, control and minimizing attack surfaces and eliminating an entire class of issues is better than trying to manage them to no end.
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MR4D大约 1 年前
Some other sources about this:<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.bloomberg.com&#x2F;news&#x2F;articles&#x2F;2024-03-21&#x2F;us-justice-department-sues-apple-in-antitrust-case-over-iphone" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.bloomberg.com&#x2F;news&#x2F;articles&#x2F;2024-03-21&#x2F;us-justic...</a><p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.investors.com&#x2F;research&#x2F;apple-stock-warren-buffett-sp500-magnificent-seven-berkshire-hathaway&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.investors.com&#x2F;research&#x2F;apple-stock-warren-buffet...</a><p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.tipranks.com&#x2F;news&#x2F;tech-titans-unite-with-epic-games-in-battle-against-apple-nasdaqaapl" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.tipranks.com&#x2F;news&#x2F;tech-titans-unite-with-epic-ga...</a><p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.marketwatch.com&#x2F;story&#x2F;doj-sues-apple-for-iphone-antitrust-violations-31670c36" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.marketwatch.com&#x2F;story&#x2F;doj-sues-apple-for-iphone-...</a><p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.wsj.com&#x2F;tech&#x2F;apple-antitrust-lawsuit-16066694" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.wsj.com&#x2F;tech&#x2F;apple-antitrust-lawsuit-16066694</a>
modeless大约 1 年前
The complaint doesn&#x27;t talk much about alternative app stores or web browser engines. If Apple lost, would they even need to start allowing alternative stores or browsers? I guess it would be all up to a judge in that case, but the complaint isn&#x27;t specifically stating that alternative app stores or browser engines should be allowed.
brcmthrowaway大约 1 年前
Who knew the US would try to destroy their biggest export market
devaiops9001大约 1 年前
An iPhone should be like a Macbook.<p>A user should be able to load a cryptographic key to the bootloader and boot any OS of their choosing. I&#x27;m kind of more on the extreme &quot;Free Market&quot; way of thinking, but even I think that government should step in and force an iPhone to be like a Macbook in this way.
devwastaken大约 1 年前
Apple has removed competitors apps and taken their markets in the past. They are not a neutral party, and the weights of public interest must be to sustain open markets. It is good for everyone, it&#x27;s unfortunate Apple has to be forced to do it but they only did it to themselves.
stolsvik大约 1 年前
As an iPhone user: Fantastic. I so hope Apple looses hard.
ch4s3大约 1 年前
This seems like such a waste of time for the Justice Department. Despite what we may think about Apple&#x27;s walled garden, the case for consumer harm is very limited. There are only so many anti-trust cases they can pursue, and I don&#x27;t know why they aren&#x27;t digging into things that clearly damage consumers.<p>For example CVS Caremark, Optum Rx, and Express Scripts control 80% of the consumer drug market as PBMs. CVS Caremark controls 1&#x2F;3 of the market and that control definitely drives up prices and bottlenecks drug availability. You can also easily identify how delays with PBM adversely effect patient outcomes.<p>Why did it take a person injury lawyer to finally take on the national association of realtors on fees?<p>One could go on at length.
shmerl大约 1 年前
Good. It&#x27;s hilarious how Apple complains that it &quot;threatens our core practices&quot;. If their core practices are based on anti-competitive behavior (and they are), they should be totally threatened.<p>I want to see ban on competing browsers being mentioned in this case.
ActualHacker大约 1 年前
Apple, Google, Facebook, Microsoft and Amazon should be 500 companies, not 5
dev1ycan大约 1 年前
It&#x27;s so funny I&#x27;m gonna go out and say it, this is only because Microsoft threw its weight into Epics lawsuit.<p>I believe, entirely, that Microsoft is the most important corporation in America, by far. In that anything they want, will get done. this is why the senators turned around on Sony claiming MS buying ActiBlizzKing was monopolistic and started threatening Sony instead, this is why Bill Gates gets to sit with Xi and Xi calls him a friend, this is why MS has unopposed access to sell its games in China.<p>They are an &quot;arm&quot; of the government and not even Apple can counter it.
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waltbosz大约 1 年前
Thought experiment: how would the world respond if Apple decided to go full Atlas Shrugged and just closed their business? Turned off all their servers, closed all the Apple stores, fired everyone, etc.
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Sparkyte大约 1 年前
It&#x27;s not an iphone monopoly it is a platform monopoly. The lawsuit is over the ecosystem not allowing users to pick or choose and being forced into a dependency with Apple products.
summerlight大约 1 年前
I wonder what would be Apple&#x27;s reaction to this case. They&#x27;ve been publicly provoking EU since none of the available options can be an existential threat to Apple thanks to its jurisdiction. Even kicking them off the EU market would be very hard and politically infeasible actions.<p>But the US is different. They actually have the power to do whatever they want, from small fines to breaking up. It&#x27;s much more of existential threat to Apple and they probably don&#x27;t want to piss off those prosecutors and politicians too much?
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jmholla大约 1 年前
For those asking why just Apple:<p>&gt; Google, Meta and Amazon are all facing similar suits, and companies from Kroger to JetBlue Airways have faced greater scrutiny of potential acquisitions and expansion.
nektro大约 1 年前
while I love to see the government finally getting a sliver of an appetite to go after monopolies, why Apple when there&#x27;s so many others that are so much more insidious?
blondie9x大约 1 年前
The most dangerous monopoly Apple maintains is iMessage. Everyone hates to be the non-blue message recipient.<p>The reason customers are loyal to Apple iPhones is simple. iMessage and iCloud.<p>It is definitely anti-competitive the way iMessage and iCloud function to lock out other cloud backup alternatives and to make subordinate non-iPhone recipients.<p>Like the lightning cable to USB-C migration. There should be 1 message platform for phones that builds upon SMS.
apatheticonion大约 1 年前
Wow I am surprised to see this coming from the US. Though this is just the tip of the iceberg when it comes to actions the government could take to empower competition&#x2F;innovation in the space. I wonder how far they will go?<p>Right to repair? Unlocked boot loaders? Driver schematics?<p>After seeing the EU crack down on monopolistic practices, I&#x27;m starting to feel hopeful that we might one day see competition, choice and innovation return to the modern computers.
stephc_int13大约 1 年前
Apple top management should have seen this coming ~years~ ago. Both Apple and Google could have prevented this by being smarter and less greedy in the first place, understanding the central role of developers and third party companies in their ecosystems.<p>Not sure about this lawsuit, I don&#x27;t really care at this point, the whole process in unrolling and won&#x27;t stop until this is over, and this won&#x27;t end up in a nice place for Apple.
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bsimpson大约 1 年前
Totally procedural, but…<p>I wonder how they select a venue for these cases. Looks like it&#x27;s being heard in New Jersey, even though the California attorney general is on board.<p>Since Apple is based in California, it seems like the case ought to default to being heard there. Would suck if you were a smaller company and had to pay to fly your legal team to wherever whim the DOJ selected, for however long a case takes to hear.
ein0p大约 1 年前
Makes me wonder what’s really going on. I don’t believe for a second this has anything to do with “antitrust” after watching Garland’s presser - they’re stretching the truth pretty bad and the language is along the lines of “they’re making too much money”. Like OK, what does the “GDP of countries” have to do with anything? I thought this is America and making a shit ton of money is legal here.
unethical_ban大约 1 年前
Yes, Apple and Google have what we call super app capability on their own phones. However unless or until mobile OS permissions structures can grant permissions at a sub app level, I think it&#x27;s good that random Joe schmo, or worse, someone like meta, cannot make a combination banking-messaging - social credit - maps application that insists on total phone access all the time.
briandear大约 1 年前
Why doesn’t the U.S. sue GM for their plan to eliminate CarPlay for most of their cars? GM is creating a monopoly on GM in-car infotainment systems.<p>Or why aren’t software makers being sued when they release Windows-only versions of their products?<p>This whole thing is absurd. Don’t like iPhone or Apple, people can choose alternatives.<p>Basically Apple’s being sued because it’s too good?
jupp0r大约 1 年前
&quot;The tech giant prevented other companies from offering applications that compete with Apple products like its digital wallet, which could diminish the value of the iPhone, the government said.&quot;<p>They literally offer APIs for any company to integrate with their wallet. As a consumer, I wish more apps would do so instead of half-heartedly implementing their own thing.
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SaintSeiya大约 1 年前
Of course it is a monopoly, I hope they sue them to the ground and force Apple to split like Microsoft was forced long ago.
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zer0zzz大约 1 年前
While I hate losing the feeling that the AppStore and iOS security policy make my device less at risk I sure am tired of not having chromium and Fortnite on my iPad. I’m also torn on how the current locked down state of affairs is the only thing keeping chromium and v8 from achieving 100% market share.
minhdanh72大约 1 年前
I believe that the best solution would be for Apple to open up iMessage to other platforms. This would allow users to choose the messaging app that they prefer, regardless of what type of phone they have. It would also promote competition and innovation in the messaging market.
xyst大约 1 年前
Whoever is handling the legal for Apple is about to see a shit ton more billable hours for the next decade.
sashank_1509大约 1 年前
I guess this is what it feels like to see the country and institutions you love decay in real time and go to the dogs. The number of HN comments here supporting the government and arguing against Apple boggle my mind, yet I can’t help but notice that I’ve seen this trendline for a while and should honestly be expecting it until something drastic happens.<p>For those with a more open mind, look at the wasteland of America and try to find the few institutions that houses the most productive, smart and creative people of the world and actively develops and nurtures them. You will find that one of those institutions is Apple, probably the biggest and arguably among the best in the computer industry. Any sane government would decide its first priority is to protect and nurture these institutions as they represent the cream of the crop of institutions in the country. If Apple started in China, you bet the Chinese government would pull all stops to try and subsidize Apple if its business starts to die, that will also kill Apple albeit in a different way. Yet in our government we have decided it’s time to ruin this institution. Quick, what’s the easiest way to take your most productive and motivated employees and make them quit in frustration. Easy, you keep chipping away at their autonomy, narrowing it in scope and replacing all the tasks where they used to think decide with a long complex labyrinthe of rules and processes. Any time they take initiative, make them go through a long and arduous approval by committee and anytime they make an infraction micromanage them in that area for an excessive amount of time. You will find that they will quit in due time.The government seems determined on putting Apple on that diet. In its ideal world, Apple should be another Boeing, a company that exists to embody its regulation. Alas we are fortunately a bit far away from that, Apple I reckon has a few good years of its life left, but I won’t be surprised if we see this happen to the tech industry in 20 years.
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pksebben大约 1 年前
It&#x27;s gonna hurt me to say this because I&#x27;m one of those rabid lefty bust-up-the-corporations types, but the universe is a nuanced place so here it is;<p>Whether Apple&#x27;s practices are motivated by blocking competition or not (and I&#x27;m pretty sure that&#x27;s part of their thinking if not the principal driver), there are other effects of a lot of these practices that I would hate to lose as a consumer.<p>Not having to work to maintain compatibility with a bunch of stuff that might or might not work, and being able to focus on ecosystem interoperability, all adds up to my tablet being a seamless second monitor, being able to shuttle data between my devices, and being able to manage messaging and all sorts of other stuff on whatever device I happen to be looking at at the time, whether it&#x27;s my tablet, phone, watch, or laptop.<p>No one else does this even remotely well, and so much of what I do these days would fall under the effort watermark and never happen if it wasn&#x27;t for this insane level of convenience and &quot;it just works&quot;.
nojvek大约 1 年前
Suing is the easy part. Getting courts to rule that Apple is a monopoly is a much bigger deal. And Apple will surely appeal, and that appeal has to also result in same ruling.<p>Otherwise it’s a performance like Lina Khan does with FTC with little to to show.
Foxhuls大约 1 年前
I will never understand why people who don’t like the apple ecosystem just simply don’t buy apple products. It’s just really strange to me that it’s considered to be a monopoly when no one is forced to use the platform, there are other options out there.
luxuryballs大约 1 年前
You have a monopoly on your product! I wonder what the real motive was here, did Apple not comply with something and now they’re getting slapped? I don’t believe for a second that this is purely good faith as I haven’t seen any actual harm being caused.
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jagged-chisel大约 1 年前
&gt; The government even has the right to ask for a breakup…<p>I really dislike statements like this. They could <i>ask</i> even without the “right to ask.”<p>Having the “right to ask” doesn’t guarantee the request will be honored.<p>How does this “right to ask for a breakup” actually affect the story?
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andreygrehov大约 1 年前
Does U.S. make it simple to get into a mobile business so that I could compete with Apple? Can I easily manufacture a phone and get an approval from FCC? If not, then Apple should sue the hell out of DOJ in response.
perfectstorm大约 1 年前
i don&#x27;t expect anything to come out of this (really a cash strapped government department trying to take on a trillion dollar company), but at the very least i expect Apple to settle for some things like better interoperability between iMessages and RCS. My SO uses an iPhone and i converted to Android and messages sent between our devices are always a hit or miss.<p>I really like my old Apple watch but i can&#x27;t use it anymore because i switched to a Google Pixel.<p>My hope is that Apple settles this outside of court and agrees to more interoperability.
monkeydust大约 1 年前
What kind of payout range is being anticipated here for settlement? Also remind me, where does all that money go exactly? ... could result in a massive redistribution of wealth... we had the banks now its big tech
cushpush大约 1 年前
Listening to Merrick Garland US AG all I can say is, let the man cook.
doctoboggan大约 1 年前
US Attorney General Merrick Garland discussing the suit live here:<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.youtube.com&#x2F;watch?v=rqKbl0vWzaU" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.youtube.com&#x2F;watch?v=rqKbl0vWzaU</a>
micromacrofoot大约 1 年前
The US should outright copy EU privacy and other related laws when it comes to big tech companies where possible, it&#x27;s embarrassing how much we&#x27;re lagging behind on this.
mikhael28大约 1 年前
Man, it must be tough to work in Apple&#x27;s legal department.
jupp0r大约 1 年前
&quot;The government also said Apple had tried to maintain its monopoly by not allowing other companies to build their own digital wallets. Apple Wallet is the only app on the iPhone that can use the chip, known as the NFC, that allows a phone to tap-to-pay at checkout.&quot;<p>NFC works fine with ChargePoint for example. There are APIs for app developers to take advantage of the chip if they want to use the functionality on their own hardware. This is merely about the level of abstraction that access is allowed to, and as a consumer, I appreciate Apple enforcing rigorous standards there vs dealing with 500 different buggy implementations.
gigel82大约 1 年前
This is not enough. It&#x27;s good, but definitely not enough.
kovacs_x大约 1 年前
apple should simply allow to replace ios with Android or Linux on iphone (without any support obviously) for those who &quot;feel restricted&quot; and let them have it.. for all the remaining let us keep using Apples walled garden on apples terms (i like having good night sleep knowing that my family members wont fck up their phones, get hacked or their data be used for profit by google, fb and any other &quot;competitor&quot;).
throwaway743大约 1 年前
Should this make it through, what would this mean for operating systems? Would it mean that Windows and Apple would have to be able to run Windows, Apple, and linux software?<p>Side thought, many Americans will purchase an Apple products as a means of projecting their identity&#x2F;lifestyle. Apple, to many, is a luxury tech product company and is used to project their self image to the world.<p>Remove the exclusivity of their products only being able to integrate with one another, then the image of exclusivity (&quot;part of the club&quot;) starts falling apart.<p>If any of this happens then Apple&#x27;s in a pretty shit spot. That&#x27;s a big if tho
tempnow987大约 1 年前
It&#x27;s weird that the focus is so heavily on businesses and alleged harms to businesses (to ie, scam customers with hard to cancel renewals).<p>One reason folks LIKE apple is because apple has the market power to do things that yes - hurt other businesses but that make the consumer experience better.<p>When I get my iphone it&#x27;s not loaded with carrier crap. Seriously, android you might be getting tons of carrier junk on your phone.<p>When I go to cancel a subscription its super easy. Apple even REMINDS me to cancel if I delete an app with a subscription tied to it (ie, that renews annually). They also notify me in ADVANCE of renewals to let me cancel.<p>Trial offers with higher renewing rates, the renewal rate is at the same font size and right in the payment acknowledgement for any trials.<p>And the list goes on.<p>Look at this against the lack of enforcement against totally blatant scams (billions) from the elderly. Total ripoffs and dark patterns - unconcealable subscriptions etc etc. Of all the consumer harm - apple should be way way way down on the list.
asow92大约 1 年前
As an iOS developer, this excites me! It seems like it will open up the market for new app development opportunities, which is a great thing indeed!
visarga大约 1 年前
I don&#x27;t even want to open NYT after they sued for copyright infringement on their old news, after entrapping the models with the first phrase.
bfrog大约 1 年前
Plenty of monopolies, the iPhone at least to this armchair analyst doesn’t look even close to being one.
ddxv大约 1 年前
I wish they took Apple to task for &quot;privacy&quot; SKAN which forces everyone to let Apple run a blackbox advertising.
bedros大约 1 年前
can someone explain how different is the iphone ecosystem anti-competitive practices vs sony playstation ecosystem?
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fundad大约 1 年前
Competing phone companies give up revenue to set low prices. Apple meets those prices by monetizing commerce.
Blackstrat大约 1 年前
So I&#x27;m guessing Apple didn&#x27;t agree to collude with the government as Google, Facebook, et al has. It&#x27;s not a monopoly. No one has to buy Apple. Globally, Android phones have a larger share of the market. In the US, Apple is around 55%. As for it&#x27;s business practices? About like the rest of the tech industry, or industry generally.
FredPret大约 1 年前
Perhaps a hardware engineer can help me out here, but I don&#x27;t think Apple makes an unreasonable margin on the iPhone. Overall they make 26% [0]. Really quite reasonable considering highly-developed proprietary software is bundled with the device<p>They make a lot of money because they sell * a lot * of iPhones.<p>[0] <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;valustox.com&#x2F;AAPL" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;valustox.com&#x2F;AAPL</a>
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matt3210大约 1 年前
If I didn&#x27;t like the Apple ecosystem, lock-in and walled garden, I would use android.
gregorygoc大约 1 年前
Both Apple and Google are ruthless monopolies but when there was a post about an antitrust against Google you could’ve clearly seen a bias against them. Whereas Apple gets a free pass because their products are „cool”. This is a sad state of HN nowadays.
smashah大约 1 年前
Great next they should sue Meta and Whatsapp for anticompetitive and monopolistic practices
djbelieny大约 1 年前
Ok, I understand this may be an unpopular stance and risk downvotes. However, I want to share my perspective on government intervention in business, particularly regarding anti-monopoly actions against companies with proprietary ecosystems.<p>Firstly, I&#x27;m no fan of monopolies. Yet, I&#x27;m conflicted about the idea of the government compelling anyone to divulge trade secrets or alter their services to simply foster competition, especially when the company in question has opted to create an ecosystem of products and services designed to be exclusive. For example, Apple&#x27;s iMessage doesn&#x27;t integrate with other platforms, and its smartphones are optimized for its ecosystem.<p>As consumers, we&#x27;re aware of these limitations and have the &quot;freedom&quot; to choose products that better suit our needs instead. Labeling a company as a monopoly simply because its products don&#x27;t play well with others overlooks the investment and innovation behind their development. After all, it&#x27;s Apple&#x27;s technology, infrastructure, and service on the line.<p>Why should these companies be forced to share or open their ecosystems? While there are valid arguments for promoting interoperability and open technology, the idea of mandating companies to share their proprietary advancements seems to contradict the essence of free enterprise. Should they then be compelled to &#x27;open up&#x27; their infrastructure against their will?
gwenwiener大约 1 年前
This comment is an experiment to test the website&#x27;s error prevention methods
tagyro大约 1 年前
Maybe off-topic but it&#x27;s really funny to read the mental gymnastics of John Gruber at Daringfireball.<p>A week ago, the European Commission had something with Apple, now the US DOJ ...one might think that Apple really is doing something.<p>To quote Francis Urquhart [the original <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Francis_Urquhart" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Francis_Urquhart</a>]: &quot;You might very well think that; I couldn&#x27;t possibly comment&quot;
teddyh大约 1 年前
The case against Microsoft basically vanished after an election happened.
ChildOfChaos大约 1 年前
I don&#x27;t know why, but for some reason why I see something like this, I can&#x27;t help but imagine what it must be like for Tim Cook receiving this news when he is randomly going about his day. It&#x27;s got to be a huge punch to the face and I wonder how such people deal with such news.
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sneak大约 1 年前
I wrote this essay about Apple’s anti-consumer practices in 2019:<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;sneak.berlin&#x2F;20190330&#x2F;apple-is-not-trying-to-screw-you&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;sneak.berlin&#x2F;20190330&#x2F;apple-is-not-trying-to-screw-y...</a><p>It seems especially relevant given today’s news.
sieborg大约 1 年前
If you don&#x27;t want the app store, just buy an android. sick of this
khazhoux大约 1 年前
I hope this lawsuit fails. As a user, I’m very happy with the tight Apple ecosystem, and I don’t want my experience to be compromised just because some other companies wants to make money in Message or Photos space.<p>The only place Apple needs to change, imho, is the app store tax.
amelius大约 1 年前
Break them up into a software, hardware and services company.
pmarreck大约 1 年前
People think iMessage has entrenched iOS but what&#x27;s actually happened is that iMessage has entrenched the POTS phone number system, which is (frankly) unregulated shit.<p>You can actually iMessage people with just an email address, but in practice I don&#x27;t think anyone actually does that since you can&#x27;t also call them by that identifier (but now you can use any number of services to call digitally while skipping POTS phone numbers entirely)
abhayhegde大约 1 年前
I understand the evil practices of Apple to lock you up in their walled garden such as iMessage, easy sync between the devices etc. But, ultimately, wouldn&#x27;t the choice of buying those products in the consumer&#x27;s hand?
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dghughes大约 1 年前
Stuff like Apple Vision Pro where you need an iPhone to scan your face is annoying. If you want a Apple Watch but have Android phone it&#x27;s pretty much pointless. How does Apple get away with that?<p>Worse than that from hardware to browsers over the years it all seems to be less open or to work with other systems, apps, OS. Linux being the exception of course.
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badgersnake大约 1 年前
I guess all that Google lobbying cash finally paid off.
m3kw9大约 1 年前
It seems like they do not like vertical integration
ursuscamp大约 1 年前
I can&#x27;t wait for this to take seven years to resolve, with the resolution being that the US government gets a big payday in bribes (er, sorry, fines) and nothing actually changes.
arctac大约 1 年前
Long overdue, markets should be free.
foobaw大约 1 年前
I just want Apple to release RCS already
lukeplato大约 1 年前
When is a good time to buy AAPL on the dip?
jupp0r大约 1 年前
&quot;The company “undermines” the ability of iPhone users to message with owners of other types of smartphones, like those running the Android operating system, the government said. That divide — epitomized by the green bubbles that show an Android owner’s messages — sent a signal that other smartphones were lower quality than the iPhone, according to the lawsuit.&quot;<p>Is this even factually true? Messages that are sent as texts appear green, whether it&#x27;s to other iPhones or devices made by Apple&#x27;s competitors. The green color warns me that messages are not end-to-end encrypted and can potentially be read by any man in the middle with access to telephony infrastructure.
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FrustratedMonky大约 1 年前
What is the crux of argument on how they prevent people from using Samsung?<p>EDIT: The title of the post is &quot;Monopoly&quot;. I think it is ok to ask what the argument for this is, when iPhone is NOT the majority of the market.<p>Company<p>4Q23 Market Share<p>1. Apple<p>24.7%<p>2. Samsung<p>16.3%<p>3. Xiaomi<p>4. Transsion
kmbfjr大约 1 年前
There is a lot to complain about Apple’s business practices, but the fact that the green bubble rage has turned into an interoperability monopoly case is laughable.<p>How much did that one set back Google after their ADHD killed off how many messaging platforms?<p>Fine, open it up, open them all up. Give me sliders to deny messages from SMS, Whatsapp and anyone else looking for compatibility. Same in the other direction, allow users to choose from which originating platform they’ll accept messages.<p>As far as the rest, yeah, Apple needs an adjustment. I should not have to pay to run my own app on my own phone. But I do.
1vuio0pswjnm7大约 1 年前
The &quot;non-paywall link&quot; did not work me.<p>This worked instead:<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;web.archive.org&#x2F;web&#x2F;20240321143551if_&#x2F;https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.nytimes.com&#x2F;2024&#x2F;03&#x2F;21&#x2F;technology&#x2F;apple-doj-lawsuit-antitrust.html" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;web.archive.org&#x2F;web&#x2F;20240321143551if_&#x2F;https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.ny...</a>
ArthurAardvark大约 1 年前
Of all the goliaths and titans of industry...Apple....really? Perhaps its a matter of applicable laws&#x2F;cases...but why not Amazon, Google and Microsoft? They have their tentacles in every direction, I consider that sort of broad-spectrum corporation to be the worst kind. It is not even similar sectors in the case of Amazon (well there are plenty of Google subsidies without the &quot;Google&quot; brand on it) which I find more frightening but hey, I welcome our new corporate overlords!
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spacecadet大约 1 年前
Focus less on monopoly and they may not have built a flawed chip... The sun sets once again on Apple.
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asow92大约 1 年前
Alternate coverage without a paywall <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.usatoday.com&#x2F;story&#x2F;news&#x2F;politics&#x2F;2024&#x2F;03&#x2F;21&#x2F;apple-allegedly-monopolized-smartphones-justice-department&#x2F;73051961007&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.usatoday.com&#x2F;story&#x2F;news&#x2F;politics&#x2F;2024&#x2F;03&#x2F;21&#x2F;appl...</a>
ubermonkey大约 1 年前
Next up: suing Sony for having a Playstation monopoly, and suing Tesla for having a Tesla monopoly.
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jaimex2大约 1 年前
Good, tear them apart.
multimoon大约 1 年前
I don’t understand why Apple is the target and everyone - govts included - walk right past MS repeating what they’re best at. MS is currently pushing popup ads into windows that installs unsolicited extensions into google chrome and switches the search engine to bing - and will fear monger the user with vague security claims about switching back.
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minroot大约 1 年前
will this prevent people from not buying apple phones?
kovacs_x大约 1 年前
so.. based of these claims by US government, would it be good and required for Apple to give full access to users data, financials, health and everything-else-data to say Huaweii smartwatch?
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crop_rotation大约 1 年前
Great news. They should next should sue Ford for monopoly over the F150.
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coolliquidcode大约 1 年前
Cool. Now do google, amazon, fb, Verizon, att, chevron, exxon, gp, oracle, microsoft, etc.
ggregoire大约 1 年前
Can Apple win?
shuckles大约 1 年前
I like the part of the complaint where the government lawyers fantasize that their hard work is the reason why Microsoft allowed iTunes Store on Windows. Some real narcissism and lack of knowledge about technology on display.
coding123大约 1 年前
Probably should take down the food giants first.
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Andrex大约 1 年前
Finally.
andreygrehov大约 1 年前
Can we stop feeding paywalled websites with free traffic? Does HN encourage me to create a paid account with NYTimes?
lowbloodsugar大约 1 年前
What a waste of everyone’s money.
minroot大约 1 年前
this feels so stupid.
Fgyu0909大约 1 年前
Apple genuinely deserves this lawsuit.<p>&gt; By tightly controlling the user experience on iPhones and other devices, Apple has created what critics call an uneven playing field where it grants its products and services access to core features that it denies rivals.<p>Once I read this I was not shocked. Apple is already pushing people to buy their separate apps that should have came in for free, with the purchase of the Iphone or at least make a bundle Apple users could buy. Disgusting Apple totally deserved.
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shudza大约 1 年前
Looks like someone important didn&#x27;t like that Apple placed a blatant backdoor in their CPUs.
mbgerring大约 1 年前
Another big, annoying one is password managers. I use an open source password manager with an iPhone app, but there’s no way to integrate it system wide, so the experience of using it on my phone is terrible.<p>And yet! No matter how much worse third party integration is on iPhone, I still don’t want to use an operating system made by an advertising company.
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gigatexal大约 1 年前
Get the popcorn. This is gonna be good. It’s more or less tying or US v Microsoft no?
Walden98大约 1 年前
thanks for sharing..
camdenlock大约 1 年前
This is some EU-smelling shite.
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fnord77大约 1 年前
&quot;apple is making too much money, so let&#x27;s loot them&quot;
JaceLightning大约 1 年前
Thank.<p>God.<p>Fuck evil Apple.
lyu07282大约 1 年前
&gt; The Justice Department has the right under the law to ask for structural changes to Apple’s business — including a breakup, said an agency official<p>Sometimes neoliberalism feels like it&#x27;s gaslighting us, like am I really supposed to believe this is going to lead to any substantial change? That this ideology isn&#x27;t completely delusional?
zackmorris大约 1 年前
This makes me wonder who Apple ticked off at the DOJ, because it would be interesting to follow that money trail and see where their lobbying broke down. That&#x27;s the chink in the armor of all these too-big-to-fail companies, and how we the people reclaim our power.<p>But the real point that HN commenters seem to be missing is that the Apple we grew up with hasn&#x27;t existed for a long time. They abandoned their charter decades ago. Which was originally to bring the power of computing to everyone, especially children, to liberate us all from Big Brother and the limits on creativity handed down to us by megacorps like IBM, Microsoft and now Amazon.<p>I can&#x27;t list everything that Apple has down wrong that caused me to stop endorsing them. But I can provide at least a start of a vision of what a real Apple would look like with today&#x27;s technology and expertise. A real Apple would:<p><pre><code> * Strive to reduce the cost of technology through innovation and economies of scale. * Sell user-serviceable hardware with interchangeable parts and conveniences like no-tools battery replacement. * Use its vast access to capital and resources to innovate, rather than dump its R&amp;D costs onto early adopters with stuff like VR headsets and &quot;high end&quot; computers costing 2-10 times the market rate. * Sell value-added services and leverage proven technologies like BitTorrent to provide users searchable access to every kind of media ever created, rather than bowing to the RIAA&#x2F;MPAA and creating walled gardens like iTunes and yet another streaming service in Apple TV that locks users into a proprietary vendor providing limited usability. * Build handhelds with P2P wireless technology that &quot;just works&quot;, the way early Kindle had free cellular access, to negate the monopoly power of 5G. * Empower users with real revolutionary technologies such as highly multicore processors, auto-scaling CPU clusters and parallelized functional programming languages, not just halfhearted evolutionary proprietary solutions like M1 and Metal which mostly just copy other monopolies like Nvidia. * Fund and maintain open source software ecosystems instead of endlessly deprecating previously working frameworks with no backwards compatibility or migration tools, to skim even more profit at tremendous expense to developers. * Encourage a developer-first mindset by providing up-to-date documentation instead of expired links and a drink-the-kool-aid mindset comprised of cookie cutter proprietary frameworks handed down from on high by middle managers and designers. * Stand up to authoritarianism by selling its products unmodified in foreign markets, rather than weakening encryption or bowing to censorship like Twitter&#x2F;X did for China and India at the people&#x27;s expense. * Pay the wealth forward into grants, trusts and UBI instead of hoarding an almost $3 trillion market cap that only benefits people of means who can afford to buy AAPL stock and sell it short for almost guaranteed profit at times like this. </code></pre> I could go on.. forever. I&#x27;m just so tired of everything that I&#x27;m not sure I can even endorse tech as a whole anymore, since this seems to be what always happens. I wish we could erase everything that happened after the Dot Bomb around the year 2000 and start over on a new timeline. Built and funded by us directly as free agents the way we always dreamed of, instead of pulling the yoke for an owner class whose only contribution is access to capital it vacuumed up from the rest of us through everything from gentrification to regulatory capture.
btown大约 1 年前
Direct link to the complaint itself: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;static01.nyt.com&#x2F;newsgraphics&#x2F;documenttools&#x2F;9765671b79f64ad9&#x2F;6cfe3c6c-full.pdf" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;static01.nyt.com&#x2F;newsgraphics&#x2F;documenttools&#x2F;9765671b...</a><p>Pages 29-31 of the complaint are especially relevant to read for many of us in web development and who value open systems, as they detail the intentionality of Apple&#x27;s strategy to restrict so-called &quot;super apps&quot; from becoming portals for arbitrary web applications. And page 42+ describes restrictions on alternate digital wallets.<p>There&#x27;s a lot here beyond the original headlines, and it&#x27;s incredibly relevant to read or skim directly.
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hbn大约 1 年前
If Apple&#x27;s iPhone &quot;monopoly&quot; is illegal then sue Google for continuing to make Android worse. That&#x27;s why I switched to iPhone and have no desire to switch back.<p>Apple&#x27;s crime here is they made a good product and continued to iterate on it, while Google has churned for years, reinventing and rebranding every app, service, and product multiple times a year and only making them worse so POs can get promotions.
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iosjunkie大约 1 年前
This hard for me to understand. Apple hasn’t changed its approach their wall garden in ages. The consumer market decided to reward that model with adoption of Apple products.
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Ezhik大约 1 年前
I just want to code and sideload my own silly little apps that aren&#x27;t important enough to be in the App Store. I can do this on my Mac and it doesn&#x27;t seem to explode because of it.
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crop_rotation大约 1 年前
The comments here seem extremely emotional against Apple. If you want a free device then the android ecosystem has many great examples. The S23&#x2F;S24 ultra are phones which are as good as the iPhone. I have always been an Android user because of the freedoms. But forcing iOS to become like android makes no sense. Android already exists and you can already use it. The onboarding app will even move all your data. iMessage is even going to support the useless RCS standard. I am not sure what people in this thread have against Apple. Doing the things they require will simply make all the advantages of iPhone evaporate and it will be simply left in the dust. If you want android, buy android.
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bilekas大约 1 年前
I know its a small thing, but isn&#x27;t the phrase &quot;an iPhone monopoly&quot; a bit redundant ?<p>I surely can&#x27;t say shame on Mars for having a &quot;A CocaCola monopoly&quot; ?<p>From established writers at NYT, I suspect I am wrong, but it seems a weird expression.
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anonymouse008大约 1 年前
There are too many quotes &#x27;from Apple management&#x27; in the compliant that need context. Something doesn&#x27;t add up.<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;s3.documentcloud.org&#x2F;documents&#x2F;24492020&#x2F;doj-apple-antitrust-complaint.pdf" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;s3.documentcloud.org&#x2F;documents&#x2F;24492020&#x2F;doj-apple-an...</a><p>Either that, or Apple&#x27;s management has become truly rotten. That would be the saddest realization.
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fidotron大约 1 年前
Given iOS doesn’t have a monopoly, even in the US market, this is almost certainly a negotiation move thanks to Apple not being seen to be compliant enough with the US gov wrt privacy and security. Possibly App Store policies differences of opinion as well.
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flenserboy大约 1 年前
The government does not want people to have secure devices. Whether or not Apple&#x27;s are currently secure is not the point; that they are working to make them so is enough to make sure it doesn&#x27;t happen.
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mudil大约 1 年前
&quot;Government&#x27;s view of the economy could be summed up in a few short phrases: If it moves, tax it. If it keeps moving, regulate it. And if it stops moving, subsidize it.&quot; -Ronald Reagan
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for1nner大约 1 年前
Inevitable settlement with no real change in the market dynamics, or am I too down on the U.S. Justice system?
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dkobia大约 1 年前
Apple getting sued in the US and EU is really about finding an equilibrium between 3 stakeholders - Apple, Users &amp; Developers. The status quo favors Apple and Users. Developers led by companies like Epic just want a bigger piece of the pie. That&#x27;s it.
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rvz大约 1 年前
Finally. It was about time that this would happen.<p>Google got one anti-trust lawsuit, Meta should get another one (by owning too many social networks with billions of users each) and after the failed anti-trust lawsuit that Epic tried to sue Apple under, this time the DOJ is finally going after Apple.<p>Good.<p>I&#x27;m really looking forward to the <i>United States v. Apple Inc.</i> anti-trust lawsuit that will actually make some changes to stop the 30% commission scam once and for all.<p>After that, now do Microsoft (again)
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photochemsyn大约 1 年前
One of the most annoying features of the iOS ecosystem is the great lengths they take to prevent easy export of data out of the iOS system to other non-Apple devices. E.g. ever tried exporting Safari bookmarks on iOS to a Linux system running Firefox? A simple JSON file is all it would take, but no, you have to sync with a MacOS computer or some such:<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;discussions.apple.com&#x2F;thread&#x2F;254567613" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;discussions.apple.com&#x2F;thread&#x2F;254567613</a>
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thxcvs大约 1 年前
Posting anonymously. I worked on an app where Apple gave us special access to private APIs allow listed by the app ID and told us to keep it secret. This access gave the select few apps that got it a huge advantage in performance. I don&#x27;t want to share too much details at the risk of identifying the app and getting it revoked.
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lumb63大约 1 年前
What rubs me the wrong way about the Apple monopoly case(s?) is they sound to me like “we (the people) don’t want to actually solve the problem by through the totally-viable free market approach; we instead feel that we are owed some say in how this company chooses to develop its products; please strongarm them through legal means that don’t really apply, to make that a reality”.<p>People who are interested in Apple’s “walled garden” can buy iPhones. People who aren’t, can choose not to. Nobody is making people buy iPhones. Nobody is making people buy Androids either. Any company which thinks there is a sufficient market to be had in providing an alternative platform that does not use a walled garden approach can develop the hardware and software which would allow their customers a more open platform. There is absolutely nothing stopping this from happening today. The failure of companies and individuals to do so proves to me that nobody cares enough about this to take real action.<p>Contrast this with real trusts of days past like Standard Oil. If someone developed a competing company, they could undercut competitors by selling oil at a loss long enough to drive anyone else out of business. What would the parallel be in this universe? If someone developed a new smartphone, there is nothing in Apple’s walled garden approach that would prohibit that platform from taking off.<p>IMO when consumers buy products, they are entitled to the product they knowingly bought, not the product that they want.
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lenerdenator大约 1 年前
I think there&#x27;s a large contingent of people who want more access and choice with apps and services on their iOS devices.<p>And frankly, that&#x27;s what Android is for. Just go get a Samsung Galaxy.<p>EDIT: You can downvote it all you want, but part of the appeal of iOS devices is that you have your workable service for the device and there&#x27;s no real thought to be put into choosing that service. Not everyone wants different app stores, and on the software side of things, it adds a very thick layer of complexity and headaches, especially if you&#x27;re helping, I don&#x27;t know, your 64-year-old mother with her iPhone.
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_chimmy_chonga_大约 1 年前
<a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;web.archive.org&#x2F;web&#x2F;20240321143739&#x2F;https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.nytimes.com&#x2F;2024&#x2F;03&#x2F;21&#x2F;technology&#x2F;apple-doj-lawsuit-antitrust.html" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;web.archive.org&#x2F;web&#x2F;20240321143739&#x2F;https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.nytim...</a>
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justrealist大约 1 年前
IANAL but it&#x27;s baffling to me that this one took so long. This has been the clearest-cut abuse of monopoly in tech for a long time. Why did they waste time trying to convince judges that &quot;free&quot; could be monopoly pricing, when this was in broad daylight?
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oliv__大约 1 年前
I don&#x27;t get it.<p>You build a successful product that people love, gain an important position in a market you basically created, offer a closed marketplace for apps to further provide value to your core product, again this is a resounding success and people vote with their $$$ to subsidize your growth.<p>In the meantime, your competitor comes up with their own product and marketplace. Consumers are able to freely choose between both.<p>Now your company is forced by the gov to integrate your products with the competition&#x27;s inferior marketplace. Why? How is this not overreach?<p>EDIT: easy to downvote, why don&#x27;t you give me answers instead
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ocdtrekkie大约 1 年前
Tim Sweeney didn&#x27;t get it done, so the US government will pick up the slack. I imagine they were waiting to see if Epic won before trying the case themselves, but Biden may have wanted to make sure it got moving before the election may take it out of his hands.<p>One of the most impressive successes in Epic&#x27;s cases was just dragging the evidence into the open. A lot of illegal behavior is hidden in confidential agreements mostly to keep them out of regulators&#x27; view for as long as possible.
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mupuff1234大约 1 年前
Why does it seem like Microsoft is flying under the DoJ radar this last decade?
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Scubabear68大约 1 年前
The point the suit misses is that one can simply buy an Android phone if they like. Millions of people literally do every year.<p>Choice already exists.
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smoldesu大约 1 年前
How do you think Apple will differentiate their case from <i>United States v. Microsoft Corp.</i>, where Microsoft was implicated for almost identical monopoly misconduct?<p>The complaint literally says verbatim, &quot;But after launching the iPhone, Apple began stifling the development of cross-platform technologies on the iPhone, just as Microsoft tried to stifle cross-platform technologies on Windows.&quot;
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retskrad大约 1 年前
I&#x27;ve heard all arguments against Apple&#x27;s practices, and to me, they all basically come down to &#x27;it&#x27;s unfair that so many people like to live inside the Apple walled garden&#x27;. When it comes to the law, Apple is not a monopoly. When it comes to competition on the market, Apple is competing with Android and Windows, and the vast majority of the world&#x27;s middle and upper class willingly choose Apple products. Even if you literally tried to block people from buying Apple products, people will find a way. So, obviously, Apple customers are having a great time in the Apple warden garden and made Apple a $3T company. But for some reason, other companies and regulators feel like Apple and its customers are having too much fun and need to call the cops on their party.<p>Apple is no different than Google search. Even if you drowned people in search choice popups, 99% of the time people choose Google. Regulators say Google is doing something nefarious when in reality, their product is loved by billions of people. In these situations, like Apple products and Google search, we need to realize that both companies have won the game in certain markets they operate because they made products that people really enjoy using.
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danielmarkbruce大约 1 年前
The doj doesn&#x27;t have a basic understanding of how computers work, how networks work, how computer security works. They cannot effectively regulate a world they do not understand.
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codemonkeysh大约 1 年前
U.S. Government - &quot;Hey Apple, can you stop selling so many phones because you&#x27;re now becoming a monopoly; although there&#x27;s Android.&quot;
lokar大约 1 年前
As an iPhone user I am willing (and believe I am) paying Apple a premium for a well curated and reviewed App Store (vs android). I just wish they would stop “double dipping “ and charging far in excess of their costs (and in excess of reasonable profit) to the app sellers.
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amshukla大约 1 年前
The important question is who loses if apple loses. A whole host of very affluent and powerful politicians and others in influential positions own Apple stocks. Apple&#x27;s monopoly helps their portfolios. I am not expecting much by way of any significant outcome from this exercise.
trynumber9大约 1 年前
Good, computers should not be locked down by trillion dollar companies.<p>The problem with having the App Store is there is still no opt out (in the US). It works on Mac OS; there&#x27;s no technical reason for them to avoid giving the user choice. It&#x27;s all about capturing and holding an entire market.
skeptrune大约 1 年前
This is awesome. If this goes through then I expect Apple to enter a slump similar to MSFT in the coming years. Their primary selling point in the U.S. for mobile is imessage and their integrated suite. If that open market starts to eat into that then thier edge is much narrower and I don&#x27;t expect it to hold well.
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hermannj314大约 1 年前
The takeaway here is that when a multi-trillion dollar company breaks a 130-year old law in a way that impacts over one hundred million people, our justice system and government is so broken and incompetent that it takes five years of investigation before anything happens. Probably years more before any action is taken.<p>Cool, good job lawyers. The latency of your Leviathan ruins more lives than its power could ever hope to save.
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ChildOfChaos大约 1 年前
Seems rather unfair on Apple to me. You don&#x27;t have to buy an Apple product, when you do, you know what you are getting, there is choice.<p>These things always seem like some strange powerplay, if such bodies weren&#x27;t happy, they should of been discussing this with Apple and changing the laws to match rather than making a big public spectacle out of it, this really hurts innovation.<p>Of course the HN comment crowd are going to be happy with this though.
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burgessuk大约 1 年前
Is it Coincidence Apple just allowed EU to install 3rd party apps?<p>Personally I think Apple should never have allowed EU to infiltrate its devices &#x2F;Apples software.<p>I always looked at an iPhone, like an Xbox, or PlayStation; locked down device; you have to use the brands own controllers, own App Store. There’s no way Microsoft&#x2F;Sony would allow EU 3rd stores on their devices? I didn’t think Apple would either &amp; that looks to have come back &amp; bitten them!?
tiahura大约 1 年前
If Apple wanted to, they could drag this out for a decade. In the end, there are probably some details of what they&#x27;ve done with Imessage or the store that you could convince a jury are &quot;unfair.&quot;<p>It&#x27;s good to know that with everything going wrong on this administration’s watch, they’ve got their laser focus on vacuums, video games, and phones.
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