On Counter Offers

I feel like the author has severely overreacted here.<p>Counteroffers are a fact of daily life with most corporations, there's nothing malicious nor personal about them. A ludicrous counter-offer means the company has severe managerial issues and has allowed someone to become absolutely, non-negotiably indispensable.<p>IMO perceiving the counteroffer as "buying off his dreams" is a huge overreaction, and in my various jobs has never been a malicious move. Your boss is trying to save his bacon, not destroy your dreams.<p>The author does nail one point, but for the wrong reasons:<p>&#62; <i>"So some of these offers are just plain “keep them in the building while we find a replacement who’ll do the job at the price we were paying.”"</i><p>That's exactly what these counteroffers are. Very few counteroffers are serious counteroffers (serious as in they will keep you on indefinitely at the new salary). Management is going "oh fuck, how did we let this guy become so critical" right now, and as soon as the immediate crisis of you leaving is gone, they will attempt to replace you. You'll be out on your ass as soon as they find/train that someone.<p>I've had this exact thing confirmed by multiple HR folks I've known, all off the record of course. They admit that they explicitly get asked by management to organize a "manage-out". Hell, this sort of thing is bog-standard for most large HR departments.<p>&#62; <i>" Companies don’t just allow their managers to get slapped around and make outrageous counter offers to people. Budgets and HR minions can’t stand that. The manager gets dinged by the higher ups because she’s “lost control”."</i><p>This seems like where the author is off the mark. In my experience no HR person nor upper-management exec has to chase your boss down to push you out. Your boss already has every intention to manage you out as soon as he drops the counteroffer on the table. Especially when the offer is 2x your salary.

Congrats on your job and all, but I don't think a counter-offer with a raise should be taken as the action of a "skeezy jerk." It sounds like a reasonable reaction to losing a good employee.<p>Financial considerations are a significant part of a lot of peoples' reasons for working where they do. Some may even use job offers as bargaining tactics. If you were working at a hedge fund, obviously finances are at least part of your motive. So perhaps your boss merely sought to play to that.

Counteroffers get made all the time - I've had at least 3 made to me in the past, including one for an interdepartmental transfer within the same company (!) Accepting a counteroffer is staggeringly stupid for a number of reasons, but I just can't comprehend why the author would get so offended that one was made in the first place. Answer "no" and move on, easy.

As a manager, I will almost never make a counter offer. If somebody has gotten to the point of a job offer elsewhere, their head will be out of the game. While money may have started the job hunt, as time has gone on, they've found a dozen other things that are driving them crazy. Those don't go away with the counter offer and will eat away at them until they wind up leaving anyway (with poor performance in the meantime).<p>The only time I'll consider a counter offer is if 1) the engineer really is good and 2) they don't really want to leave. It's a judgement call and I've only chased somebody once (successfully, I might add).

&#62; This counter offer reeked of skeeze. He was trying to buy my dreams from me. When someone tells you “I’ve been given the opportunity to live my dreams, I’m leaving” the decent human thing to do is to congratulate them and send them on their way. (With a security escort out the building, of course. You dont know what these dream heads are gonna do on the way out.) What you don’t do is tell them you think so little of them, their lives and their goals that you think can buy them off.<p>Personally I don't feel that they meant any disrespect. They're just desperate to keep you longer. It is hard to find good developers.

I'm the proud recipient of getting that 2X raise, but not until I gave two weeks notice. (Former attempts to get a raise resulted in regular 0% increases.)<p>I agreed to stay for four months more. I knew a 2X raise couldn't win against my psyche forever. But it was nice to finally get that formal sign of acknowledgment.<p>(Former signs of acknowledgment - aka monetary bonuses - sat in my direct manager's desk. He never felt the need to pass it on until it became apparent to myself and the person who directed it that I had not yet received it.)<p>I don't know about the skeeziness of the writer's boss, but my mine sure was!

It's possible the 2x offer wasn't really that ludicrous. Any time in my career when I have felt I was paid more than could be considered reasonable I have been proven very, very wrong. I think our culture of hidden salaries combined with savvy hiring and compensation practices make it very difficult for a person to understand how much value they provide and how much it costs to replace them.<p>Also consider that there are companies that are always hiring developers. They aren't filling roles, they are just looking to hire anyone capable that they can. Of course their demand is actually finite but reaching it in the current market is inconceivable. These companies can afford to pay whatever value you add, salary is dictated only by their demand for good engineers because it dwarfs the supply. Good engineers aren't actually replaceable for these companies, if they could find a replacement they would want to retain both.

Counter offers are a way for the company to buy time while they find your replacement. Why not pay 2X if it means keeping things running smoothly? It's still a LOT less than the actual impact of your departure on the business.<p>Counter offers never work out in the long term. Now that you've put in your notice, you're no longer seen as loyal. Therefore, had you accepted (bad idea) they would not have kept you around any longer than absolutely necessary.<p>Even so, trashing your former employer after they offer you more money, however self-serving, is bad business.<p>I would not hire somebody if I saw them bad mouthing a former employer. What if they don't like my company? When they leave, they're going blast my business for not recognizing their genius/value/divinity earlier? Not good.

So here's a question. If one was satisfied/interested/liked/whatever their current job, but thought they were truly earning significantly more than their salary, is there any good tactic to start the discussion with management (or drop hints or whatever) without dropping the "I've taken another job" bomb, which as many point out is pretty much the end of the relationship right there?<p>In my own experience, I've gotten a large "retention bonus" after many of my peers quit. However, this was just dropped on me without any request or action on my part. It was a preemptive "oh God please stay at least until date X", but I didn't have anything to do with causing it directly. It was just smart/panicked managers buying insurance. And it worked. I happily stayed as I wasn't quite to the point of being ready to leave yet, so I stayed till that date and then through the next end of year bonus and then gave notice Jan 2.

Didn't read through the comments very thoroughly, but I saw someone mentioned that companies use counter offers to get employees to stay around just long enough for them to find the replacement and then fire them.<p>It sounds silly. It sounds paranoid. It sounds like something out of a cheap novel. But I have done research for an executive recruiter for over two years as a side job, and the statistic he quotes me is this: "Within 6 months the person who accepts a counter-offer is gone."<p>The reasons are many for why that is. It's not always the sleaze bag just trying to buy uninterrupted productivity. Often, the person is like the original writer said: absolutely miserable.<p>Regardless never accept counter offers. Ever.

I agree with the author that getting a ridiculously generous counter offer is a red flag about the company's management, and this alone constitutes a reason to reject the proposal. However, his moral indignation at the thought of being paid more to defer work on an activity he cares more about is misplaced. It's silly to frame the negotiation as the company intentionally trying to "buy off his dreams." Most people have a variety of "dreams," many of which can be better achieved by having more money. As far as the company knows, doubling the author's salary could let him achieve the alternate dreams of getting out of debt or buying the house he's always wanted.

I never thought about counter offers as "buying my dreams off". For your managers you are probably mainly a resource like the computer you are working on and the coffee machine in the kitchen. For them you are a machine that eats "benjamins" and spits out code. If the code you spit out is good they are willing to feed more "benjamins" and if it's not they throw you away. They don't care about the dreams their printer might have, why should they care about yours?<p>I think you should understand yourself in this way and you will see that there are also a lot of options for you.<p>I mean, if you are good enough, that Joel wants to hire you and your old boss offers you 2 times your old salary (I never even heard about such an offer), you must be good enough that most companies want you. So you can still work for Joel later on. You might also be able to work for Google or Facebook (applying would be worth find out about that, wouldn't it?). You can tell your old boss your requirements for your dreamjob and you can ask Joel for the same number on your first paycheck.<p>My point is, you don't have two options: "money" or "dream". You have a wide range between them and can find out how much you can get of both. Be more flexible, Jason!

Offering to pay 2X is probably a bad sign. Because it means they think you'd be worth that. But they weren't already paying you that. Which means they were underpaying you before. Which is not nice.

On the one hand it's an ego boost to feel they want me to stay. "Okay, I must be doing something right."<p>On the other hand, I'd be more insulted that they think I'm actually worth 2x what they are paying me now, but weren't.<p>Ultimately, I think you did just fine following your dreams. Good luck! :-)

It's interesting how money clouds people's judgements. I don't see the counter-offer as offensive, I would take it as a compliment that they really wanted to keep you(of course it stings to know that you were probably underpaying you while you were there, but that's how businesses work they pay you just as much as your worth).<p>Also, you should always negotiate when you get a job offer. Remember the employer has tons of expenses to have you there and a few thousand more per year is relatively little to them, but significant to you, the worst they can tell you is that's the best they can offer. Any employer that would take offense at an attempt to negotiate is not worth working for.

Don't sell your dreams - OK. But really, your dream is some job at some company (even if it is touched by Joel)? I hope you are not in for some big disappointment a few years down the road.

this happen all the time. if employee accepts more money to stay, the company is given time to backfill the position, and in the best case for the company, this employee can train their replacement... probably without knowing it.<p>if you accept such an offer to stay, the company knows it is about money, and that you are a flight risk because as soon as a better job comes along you will be gone. the funny thing is, most everyone would leave for a better job, but by going through this back and forth you will now have a target on you (company now realizes how critcal you are to the busness and will work harder to cross train)<p>I have seen this from both sides, and the author made the correct decision to walk in my opinion.<p>if some project needs finishing, negotiate a part time contractor stint, if you feel really really nice.

I was chatting to a recruitment consultant a while back (we were hiring rather than my looking) and they were saying that something like 90% of people who accept a counter offer leave within a year. If you're unhappy somewhere unless money is the reason you're unhappy, a counter offer (assuming as most are it's just financial) isn't going to change that.<p>The only way you should consider a counter offer is if it really addresses the reasons you're looking to leave and you really believe that they'll deliver on it.

The job of management is to get the job done at the least cost. It is a little drama queenish to call that sleazy - it's the way job is done.<p>I have moved in the past for more money - and I have never been worried about finding another job. I also have a huge history/legacy in the past company. I would have gladly stayed if they gave 2x. The catch was that they were already paying through their nose and they didn't have the headroom without promoting me levels. It happens.

If I were Joel, I'd be proud someone rejected a 2x raise to work for me.

As long as offering counter offers provokes a mixed feelings (as shown in this very HN thread) it is a valid strategy to try in order to keep employee until they find/train a replacement.

A good policy is to never take a counter offer for the reasons described in the article. However, there's no harm in coming back in a couple years at that 2x salary and a promotion.