Ask HN: Modern day equivalent to HyperCard?

148 点作者 merubin75大约 1 年前

My son is 11 and his school uses Scratch to learn basic programming concepts.I remember being introduced to HyperCard in the late 80’s/early 90’s. Does a modern day equivalent exist?Caveat: I’m a marketer, not a coder (said in my best “Bones” McCoy voice). But I thought this would be a fun father-son thing to learn together and help expand his coding skills.

41 条评论

rickcarlino大约 1 年前

1. Decker is the closest modern equivalent <a href="https://beyondloom.com/decker/" rel="nofollow">https://beyondloom.com/decker/</a>2. Bubble is easy for non-coders. <a href="https://bubble.io/" rel="nofollow">https://bubble.io/</a>3. Gambas BASIC is a bit more technical, but will give you hard 90's vibes (Linux only) <a href="https://gambas.sourceforge.net/en/main.html" rel="nofollow">https://gambas.sourceforge.net/en/main.html</a>I think the advent of LLMs might make these types of tools more accessible to non-coders, or at least I hope so.

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creer大约 1 年前

Scratch is far better and deeper than most people think. It's also interesting because the developer interface forces thinking for yourself on things like how to manage complexity in your project, or how to get different modules to communicate - and that's useful (if only helpers thought to point that out).It's very unlikely the school is digging deep in Scratch. Most likely they are keeping to the very basics - and a kid can go deeper on their own... or not.As the next step, moving to python or whichever other language is okay. And I doubt very much that at 11 they are already exhausting Scratch. A web browser and javascript is fine too.

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WillAdams大约 1 年前

I really wish Livecode hadn't pulled their opensource/Community Edition (and I'd be very glad for someone to do something with that code).Gambas is something I keep wanting to try and seems promising. EDIT: Other BASIC options include Twinbasic (looks to be stalled though) and Small Visual Basic.I did one small app w/ Python and TKinter, but it was a dense wall of text/code when I was finished and not something I was interested in revisiting. I keep seeing suggestions that Python w/ QT support is supposed to be quite good.One unlikely option is Google's Blockly (which I wish had a stand-alone desktop implementation which would make graphical programs), which has a nifty version implementing OpenSCAD:<a href="https://www.blockscad3d.com/editor/" rel="nofollow">https://www.blockscad3d.com/editor/</a>which I've used a fair bit. Moving on from there, there is: <a href="https://github.com/derkork/openscad-graph-editor">https://github.com/derkork/openscad-graph-editor</a> which has the advantage of encompassing the entirety of OpenSCAD. It's also possible to wrap up Python using PythonSCAD.orgIf you're willing to consider other node/line connection systems two promising options are:<a href="https://ryven.org/" rel="nofollow">https://ryven.org/</a>and<a href="https://nodezator.com/" rel="nofollow">https://nodezator.com/</a>What sort of coding, on what sort of projects do you want to do?FURTHER EDIT: Two other programming environments to consider:<a href="https://www.nodebox.net/" rel="nofollow">https://www.nodebox.net/</a>and<a href="https://processing.org/" rel="nofollow">https://processing.org/</a>

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dfabulich大约 1 年前

I think you and your kid would have fun designing a Choose Your Own Adventure game in Twine. <a href="https://twinery.org/" rel="nofollow">https://twinery.org/</a>FWIW, there are a bunch of simple modern GUI builders, including GUI builders for the web, but none of them are popular, due to the sweet spot of supply and demand that Hypercard hit.When Hypercard launched, it came with every Mac, it was free, and there was nothing else like it available on the Mac. On the Mac, the alternative to Hypercard was to layout UI widgets in code, with no GUI builder at all, or eventually to pay $$$ for a professional-grade IDE like CodeWarrior. As an entry-level user with no budget, if you wanted a GUI builder for the Mac, you got Hypercard, or nothing. This created a community of Hypercard enthusiasts.Furthermore, when Hypercard launched, Macs had a standard screen resolution. Every Mac sold had a screen resolution of 512x342 pixels, so you could know for sure how your cards would look on any Mac. Supporting resizable GUIs is one of the hardest things to do in any GUI builder. (How should the buttons layout when the screen gets very small, like a phone? Or very wide, like a 16:9 monitor?) Today, Xcode uses a sophisticated constraint solver / theorem prover to allow developers to build resizable UIs in a GUI; it works pretty well, I think, but it's never going to be as easy to learn as "drag the button onto the screen and it's going to look exactly like that everywhere."The last issue is the real killer for modern Hypercard wannabes: it's a small step from a web GUI builder to raw HTML/CSS. You don't have to pay big bucks to have access to professional-grade HTML, CSS, and JavaScript. Sure, they're not that easy to learn, but you can teach a kid to write interactive web pages, no problem.As a result, the demand for a simple GUI builder is lower than it was for Hypercard, and even when you do capture a user, they tend to outgrow your product, and there are a zillion competitors, so none of them can build a community with real traction.

zqfm大约 1 年前

I cut my teeth on HyperCard and I'd say that the web (HTML, JavaScript) is a pretty good successor. Getting an image on a page and then linking between pages is quite satisfying when you're starting out. Something like a basic web page is great for a beginner but there's the whole gamut from there up to 3d games and virtual machines (wasm) to advance to when you're ready.

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w10-1大约 1 年前

Hypercard for coding was interesting because it relied on message-passing with a handler hierarchy that introduced modularity questions.Small, accessible and visual languages are interesting for learning to the extent they enable you (your son) to explore on his own. But they're very frustrating because the delta between what you want and what you can do is so large, especially now that we're miles beyond hypercard/scratch in functionality.The essential idea of coding is encoding: what behavior do you want, and how can you (most economically) represent the data and processes required?Consider whether thought experiments would be a better way for your son and you (as a marketer) together to learn about encoding. If you focus together on learning how to think like a coder, it could be fun (instead of frustrating to drag through arcane syntax of toy languages).The most powerful encodings are scale-invariant; the most interesting are generative. So you could start by thinking about the game of life, or fractals.The other thing for an 11-year-old is teaching them to learn how to learn. Go with him down a rabbit hole of programming tiktoks/videos, and then step back to reflect on each, try to come up with categories, figure out how to find related topics and approaches, and summarize your results - then review them later and pull them into conversations to reinforce them. Start to see the math and encoding of life situations. Build mental models for getting frustrated (and reward systems generally), the game theory of competition, etc. -- things that will be relevant in teen years.

darrinm大约 1 年前

Hatch (<a href="https://hatch.one" rel="nofollow">https://hatch.one</a>) has many of the characteristics of HyperCard plus its "projects" are full featured, shareable and remixable (if you want) web pages.- Easy drag-and-drop interface with a library of images, audio, video, etc.- Programmable with Visual Scripting for an easy on ramp to adding logic and behaviors.- Programmable with Javascript if that's what you want to learn.- HTML "components" if you want to dig into HTML, CSS and all that good stuff.- A few tutorials to help get started with physics, animation, etc.- Free.- Super fun! Ok, I'm highly biased as one of its creators.

sea6ear大约 1 年前

My suggestions would be Tcl/Tk or Pico 8.Tcl/Tk is still the easiest way I have found to make small gui apps and the language and standard library is small enough to keep in your head easily.Pico 8 is my recent love. It's a great way to make small retro style games. There's a free educational edition or you can pay $15 for the full version which has some extra export options. I've been playing with it for the past couple months and my kids from 6-11 have started to get involved. It's programmed in Lua and I and my kids prefer it at the moment to our previous attempts at Scratch.

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flymasterv大约 1 年前

Decker<a href="https://beyondloom.com/decker/" rel="nofollow">https://beyondloom.com/decker/</a>

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despacito大约 1 年前

Haven’t seen downpour mentioned, it’s pretty neat <a href="https://downpour.games/" rel="nofollow">https://downpour.games/</a>

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talldayo大约 1 年前

Scratch is basically HyperCard on steroids. I don't think there's anything you can do in HC that you can't do in Scratch.

owlstuffing大约 1 年前

Try hyperscript. It’s like HyperTalk for the web. Pairs w htmx.See <a href="https://hyperscript.org/" rel="nofollow">https://hyperscript.org/</a>

runjake大约 1 年前

LiveCode is about the closest literal logical successor to HyperCard.<a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LiveCode?wprov=sfti1" rel="nofollow">https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LiveCode?wprov=sfti1</a>That said, I think Scratch is a better learning environment these days and you can develop workable apps in the style of HyperCard. There are plenty of tutorials, documentation, and examples to work from.<a href="https://scratch.mit.edu" rel="nofollow">https://scratch.mit.edu</a>

jazzyjackson大约 1 年前

ExcelI just went through the tutorials for a first time in about a decade (the Make Your First Pivot Table template on the home screen) and was really surprised at how they used slides with buttons (insert > shape, then right click and link to a cell reference) jumping to the next worksheet, reminded me of hypercardfrom a market adoption standpoint, nothing else in this thread has much traction in allowing non-programmers at large to do compututation with their computer.

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AustinCodeMonki大约 1 年前

Livecode is the commercial version. It used to have a community edition (free) but that was discontinued in 2021. The various other alternatives (Supercard was clunky and apparently doesn't run on 64-bit systems, PythonCard is dead, Shoes is effectively dead) besides Decker would be something like Delphi (ObjectPascal). There used to be a wxWindows-based system but that seems to have died also.These days most folks would push you towards HTML / CSS / Javascript and possibly Node.js or Deno. In my mind Hypercard was the bridge between desktop programming and web development. Realistically that's not really bad advice.For desktop programming, Dart/Flutter (Google recently laid off parts of those teams) are viable as are Python/Kivy (or even Python/Tkinter since Tkinter comes bundled with Python). You might also want to look at the DragonRuby Game Toolkit (Ruby).

ranger_danger大约 1 年前

<a href="https://www.vipercard.net/" rel="nofollow">https://www.vipercard.net/</a><a href="https://twinery.org/" rel="nofollow">https://twinery.org/</a><a href="https://www.bitsy.org/" rel="nofollow">https://www.bitsy.org/</a><a href="https://jupyter.org/" rel="nofollow">https://jupyter.org/</a>

yaj54大约 1 年前

The web is distributed HyperCard. A website is basically a hypercard stack (albeit more text-centric than bitmap-centric) it's visual, card/page based, scriptable, and hyperlinked.Get him to put together a hello world page from scratch and get it published on a live domain and he will be hooked for life.

threeseed大约 1 年前

Not Hypercard but there is a company still making a Visual Basic 5 clone: <a href="https://www.xojo.com" rel="nofollow">https://www.xojo.com</a>When I was young I found it a great way to get into programming since it's visual with immediate feedback.

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CharlesW大约 1 年前

In addition to LiveCode, you might also look at other “interactivity authoring” tools like Tumult Hype, Twine, and Roblox Studio, and even the retro <a href="https://hcsimulator.com" rel="nofollow">https://hcsimulator.com</a>.

sbashyal大约 1 年前

My son, around the same age, liked p5.js the most out of several things I introduced him to

nanna大约 1 年前

Surprised no one has mentioned Squeek Etoys? If its good enough for Alan Kay...? Or has Scratch completely superceded it?<a href="http://www.squeakland.org/" rel="nofollow">http://www.squeakland.org/</a>

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jauntywundrkind大约 1 年前

I don't have any suggestions for today, but I feel like web components that try to reveal themselves & be programmable would be by far the easiest clearest most obvious path towards such a user malleable system.

Rabidgremlin大约 1 年前

If he wants to advance in the game space then he can either keep in the "visual coding" area using something like <a href="https://www.construct.net/en" rel="nofollow">https://www.construct.net/en</a> or start heading down the text coding path with <a href="https://godotengine.org/" rel="nofollow">https://godotengine.org/</a> or <a href="https://www.lexaloffle.com/pico-8.php" rel="nofollow">https://www.lexaloffle.com/pico-8.php</a>

kjellsbells大约 1 年前

If your kid is already doing Scratch, Blockly is a really easy next step.<a href="https://developers.google.com/blockly" rel="nofollow">https://developers.google.com/blockly</a>Critically, Blockly can emit JavaScript and Python, plus it supports plugins for extended functionality. So the kid can stay inside the blockly universe for as long as they like, but easily peer under the hood and get into Python or JavaScript as soon as they like.

throwaway4good大约 1 年前

Given so many HyperCard-like product exists - why is it that none have taken off and become common like HyperCard once was? What is missing or has changed?

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Leftium大约 1 年前

It doesn't exist yet, but I want to make a programmable LOGO turtle for VR/AR.Besides teaching programming, I think it could become a scripting tool to help create experiences in VR/AR.My first introduction to programming was via LOGO writer (although I didn't even realize I was learning programming until much later.)

mega_tux大约 1 年前

Maybe not the same, but I find Red lang ( <a href="https://www.red-lang.org/" rel="nofollow">https://www.red-lang.org/</a>), Rebol like language, somewhat similar in spirit.

liampulles大约 1 年前

A bit off topic, but something to consider perhaps is using something like Game Maker and extending a sample game. It has drag and drop control flow elements to ease into coding.That's kind of how I got into it at least. It's quite fun to modify the gravity variable of a platformer and see the effect, as an example.

everythingabili大约 1 年前

I was a HyperCarder too.I would say the answer is none of the below/above...GDevelop is an app for making games. Your son will love it. It has a very cute visual programming language, not too far from Scratch.I watched a few 10 minute tutorial videos and "got it"... you two will too.p.s No connection to the company.

treve大约 1 年前

I know the authoring experience is a bit different, but I wonder if a bunch of .html files in a folder isn't a close modern equivalent.I originally learned the basics from a book in the 90's. It was easy to get into, and those basics haven't fundamentally changed.

ingigauti大约 1 年前

You might try out Plang, plang.is, not hypercard like but the syntax is natural language,For the kids, they can write the the code in their own language, so non-englishBit of self promo, as I created it

butlersean大约 1 年前

Blueprints inside the Unreal game engine would provide complexity and motivation. But it’s not for 2d cards but behaviours of agents in a 3d world.

Geep5大约 1 年前

Checkout rivet: <a href="https://rivet.ironcladapp.com/" rel="nofollow">https://rivet.ironcladapp.com/</a>

cancerhacker大约 1 年前

get him a shell account on an open access Unix box. Just learning how those tools work (start with “more” and “man” “ls” and “cd”) teaches a lot about what programming really is: creating abstractions to solve problems. A shell account also gives you access to other people doing interesting things in that space. And maybe play rogue, as a treat :-)

surfingdino大约 1 年前

SuperCard? <a href="https://www.supercard.us/" rel="nofollow">https://www.supercard.us/</a>

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fiatjaf大约 1 年前

<a href="https://hyperscript.org/" rel="nofollow">https://hyperscript.org/</a> claims to be.

pcdoodle大约 1 年前

Xojo is kind of like VB6 and allows Win/Mac/Linux + Web. I think it's free for EDU use.

BSTRhino大约 1 年前

Easel: <a href="https://easel.games" rel="nofollow">https://easel.games</a>

exe34大约 1 年前

I haven't tried racket myself, but it seems like a great first language.

heisgone大约 1 年前

Power Automate can be fun, and Adaptive Cards inside Teams work well.

kingspact大约 1 年前

No, not at all. Nothing with the system integration Hypercard had on the Mac and IIgs. It's pretty shitty that they took Hypercard and BASIC from the people. But we wouldn't have all these trillion dollar software companies these days if the user-developer had remained the core of computing.