TE
科技回声
首页24小时热榜最新最佳问答展示工作
GitHubTwitter
首页

科技回声

基于 Next.js 构建的科技新闻平台,提供全球科技新闻和讨论内容。

GitHubTwitter

首页

首页最新最佳问答展示工作

资源链接

HackerNews API原版 HackerNewsNext.js

© 2025 科技回声. 版权所有。

Insects and other animals have consciousness

127 点作者 dnetesn大约 1 年前

26 条评论

jenadine大约 1 年前
This seems obvious to me and I don't understand how one can think otherwise.
评论 #40255398 未加载
评论 #40257296 未加载
评论 #40255085 未加载
评论 #40259883 未加载
评论 #40255705 未加载
评论 #40257496 未加载
评论 #40255207 未加载
评论 #40255523 未加载
评论 #40257086 未加载
评论 #40255152 未加载
评论 #40255124 未加载
评论 #40255107 未加载
acyou大约 1 年前
Play isn&#x27;t idle play, we do it all for a reason, like all other animals. Kittens play to practice hunting. Puppies play to practice fighting. It&#x27;s an evolved behavior where animals that practice do better than animals that don&#x27;t.<p>It&#x27;s pretty clear by inspection that with these wooden balls bees are exhibiting some sort of evolved behavioral response to their environmental stimulus. Might be related to sex, collecting food, protection from predators or some other activity that&#x27;s critical for bee survival and replication.<p>My theory, which is as good as any other until investigated, is that bumblebees compete with other bumblebees for habitat, food and sexual&#x2F;mating opportunities, and have naturally evolved to detect, fly into, grab and push around and maybe even fight with spherical, bumblebee-sized objects. For an animal behavioral scientist, it seems like this should be the first conclusion, no?
评论 #40255384 未加载
评论 #40255482 未加载
评论 #40258111 未加载
评论 #40255283 未加载
PopePompus大约 1 年前
I think claiming that bees rolling little wooden balls are playing is like claiming that moths endlessly flying around a porch light at night are dancing. When a creature with a brain far simpler than a mammal&#x27;s encounters stimuli that were not present during most of its evolutionary history, it isn&#x27;t terribly surprising that it behaves in a way that does not enhance survival or demonstrate fitness.
评论 #40258074 未加载
评论 #40258021 未加载
评论 #40260622 未加载
dang大约 1 年前
Related. Others?<p><i>Insects and Other Animals Have Consciousness, Experts Declare</i> - <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=40097045">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=40097045</a> - April 2024 (14 comments)<p><i>&#x27;Irresponsible&#x27; to ignore consciousness across animal world scientists argue</i> - <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=40092985">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=40092985</a> - April 2024 (270 comments)
bnralt大约 1 年前
Most of the discussions around &quot;consciousness&quot; would be greatly improved if people avoided that vague and ill-defined term.
评论 #40255150 未加载
评论 #40266790 未加载
icambron大约 1 年前
This seems confused to me. I don&#x27;t see how bees playing, octopuses reacting to harmful stimuli, and cuttlefish remembering things is evidence of consciousness, and the article seems to confuse those things with bees having fun, octopuses feeling pain, and cuttlefish having reflective inner lives. But those are different things! Those are what <i>we</i> would experience doing those things, but it doesn&#x27;t follow at all the other beings will just because they perform these activities.<p>A thought exercise is to imagine programming a little robot. It can play with balls because you program it to stimulate objects in its environment, and it has a heuristic called &quot;interesting&quot; that controls what it plays with. It can detect when it is damaged and avoid places where the damage happened (you can even call the variable where you store the quantity of damage &quot;pain&quot; if you want). It can remember places or objects by encoding characteristics about them and storing on the onboard flash drive. While none of that is at all easy, those are all things you could imagine programming without some great conceptual breakthrough. But you would probably not suspect your robot is conscious.<p>That&#x27;s not an argument that bees are <i>not</i> conscious, and as far I understand it, there&#x27;s no conceivable way to really know, and we don&#x27;t even really have a great definition of consciousness to begin with. We have only guesses, and usually those guesses are something like &quot;well, it seems like something that must emerge from a sufficiently complex brain, and mammals and birds have big complex brains, so they probably do, and mollusks don&#x27;t, so probably they don&#x27;t&quot;, etc.<p>A related thought exercise is to imagine an alien that is very smart but is not conscious, and doesn&#x27;t understand us when we ask it about the experience of being itself.
评论 #40255373 未加载
评论 #40256978 未加载
hilbert42大约 1 年前
Whilst I&#x27;ve never had definite proof I don&#x27;t think I&#x27;ve ever doubted this. Similarly—again sans proof—I&#x27;ve always assumed that that consciousness in other creatures would manifest itself in significantly different ways than it does in humans.<p>I&#x27;ve owned dogs and even as a kid I refused to believe that they were just automatons acting without being conscious and aware of their actions. One of my dogs in particular could read my actions and emotions probably better than I could myself and it&#x27;s hard to conceive let alone believe that he wasn&#x27;t self-aware. Unless we&#x27;ve absolute proof to the contrary, it just makes sense to assume most if not all creatures have some degree of sentience.<p>That said, there has to be a scaling factor here. There just isn&#x27;t sufficient neurons in say an ant&#x27;s brain to register the complex emotions of a human and it seems sensible to me that we need to keep this perspective when dealing with all living creatures.<p>Anthropomorphizing and likening the consciousnesses of an ant to that of humans is, in my opinion, fraught with problems. For example, if we believed that ants perceived the world in the same way as we humans do and or that they were self-aware to the same degree as us then we could be in big trouble, as such an understanding would likely stop us taking action when they became pests (when, say, fire ants are imported into countries where they aren&#x27;t native).<p>We <i>do not</i> fully understand consciousnesses in ourselves nor are we able to put a measure on it, so attempting to extrapolate our degree of sentience to other organisms not only doesn&#x27;t make sense but it also could be dangerous to our own wellbeing, thus we should be very cautious until we have a much better understanding of what consciousness actually is.<p>Let me say categorically that is no excuse for being cruel and or to disregard the &#x27;feelings&#x27; of creatures irrespective of their &#x27;brain power&#x27;. We do however have to ensure that well meaning people who have strong anthropomorphic feelings are not able to set unrealistic rules in respect of living creatures that could be detrimental to our own wellbeing.<p>As I see it, honing an appropriate and proportionate response is our biggest challenge.
falsaberN1大约 1 年前
I&#x27;m still not going to feel bad when squashing mosquitos.<p>Spiders are friends though. And bugs like moths just get evicted if they are a nuisance. I feel bad about killing those.<p>But screw mosquitos. Well I guess I could let the males live, but I have no way to know.
评论 #40257862 未加载
评论 #40257824 未加载
poochkoishi728大约 1 年前
Dogs and cats seem much closer to what we experience as consciousness than they are further away. And pigs and cows are likely as conscious as dogs and cats. I&#x27;d imagine insects also have a subjective experience with some similarity to other animals, based on how they writhe in pain and seem to hate it just as much as we&#x27;d hate it.
m3kw9大约 1 年前
Why would you automatically think a bee spinning a ball “ It was, apparently, just for fun.”?
评论 #40255095 未加载
anothernewdude大约 1 年前
Unconvincing. The observation and conclusion linked by vibe and feel. That might be enough for someone picking out their birthstone but it&#x27;s not enough for me.
noashavit大约 1 年前
Why is this surprising? I feel like some pompous scientists 800 years ago decided that inspects and other animals don’t have consciousness to establish human superiority and prove that god exists (as they were forced to back then).<p>Living beings are conscious, that includes animals we eat for and inspects we kill.
smegsicle大约 1 年前
&gt; The declaration focuses on the most basic kind of consciousness, known as phenomenal consciousness. Roughly put, if a creature has phenomenal consciousness, then it is “like something” to be that creature<p>a 1995 thought experiment suggested that an etch-a-sketch could also be conscious
评论 #40255059 未加载
RickJWagner大约 1 年前
&quot;The behavior had no obvious connection to mating or survival, nor was it rewarded by the scientists. It was, apparently, just for fun.&quot;<p>They lost me there. People do lots of things that aren&#x27;t for survival, don&#x27;t have to do with mating, and aren&#x27;t fun.
vouaobrasil大约 1 年前
It&#x27;s sad that we are discussing the consciousness of animals as if it were a little puzzle using technology that requires mining and infrastructure that has killed billions of animals.
wsintra2022大约 1 年前
I read a really interesting book, Jung in the 21st century. Off the top of my head I remember a part about a consciousness field that runs throughout the universe. I also listened to a podcast just the other day in which two physicists discussed an idea that the higgs boson may be part of a field that could be related to consciousness and that neurons and electrons behave in a conscious manner. Anyway, recommend the Jung in 21st Century book.
评论 #40258086 未加载
jowdones大约 1 年前
So bees play, hence they are conscious. But a lot of animals play and they are oblivious to themselves (not self conscious).
评论 #40255061 未加载
评论 #40255221 未加载
评论 #40255105 未加载
评论 #40255089 未加载
评论 #40255193 未加载
amelius大约 1 年前
In other news, Earth is not at the center of the universe.
评论 #40259359 未加载
RecycledEle大约 1 年前
What if fun&#x2F;play is just a malfunction of the brain?
nathias大约 1 年前
this seems as a good clue that consciousness is implemented as gamma neural oscillations
tamaharbor大约 1 年前
Do plants next.
vivzkestrel大约 1 年前
oh boy now i don&#x27;t know how to feel about all the mosquitoes i have been swatting this entire winter season
评论 #40254985 未加载
评论 #40255177 未加载
评论 #40257877 未加载
yungporko大约 1 年前
now i hate wasps even more than i already did.
arp242大约 1 年前
Most insects have hundreds of thousands of neurons. Even simple mammals have dozens of millions. Dogs have billions. Humans, elephants, dolphins have 1 to 2 dozen billion.<p>While differences between e.g. humans and dogs is pretty large, it&#x27;s still roughly of the same order. This is something you can meaningfully compare with similar(-ish) frame of references.<p>I don&#x27;t think you can compare &quot;consciousness&quot; as experienced by humans, elephants, apes, and dogs with &quot;consciousness&quot; as experienced by a bee with ~800,000 neurons, for any meaning of &quot;consciousness&quot;. Even extrapolating rolling around a little ball to &quot;play&quot; is a huge stretch; many insects can exhibit all sorts of absurd behaviour because their programming misfires.
评论 #40255210 未加载
评论 #40256999 未加载
评论 #40255247 未加载
评论 #40255244 未加载
评论 #40255518 未加载
nineteen999大约 1 年前
This is great news for Animal Liberation groups, society and the world as a whole. It finally provides the justification needed to outlaw the consumption of animals for good forever.<p>We&#x27;ll start with humans of course, but we can then outlaw lions eating gazelles, sharks eating humans, and birds eating insects.<p>Just imagine how wonderful everything will be when we finally are able to snip into the circle of life and turn it into a flat line.
评论 #40256034 未加载
评论 #40255963 未加载
评论 #40256037 未加载
ChaitanyaSai大约 1 年前
It helps to have both a computational understanding, and a computational perspective of what minds do to understand why consciousness is needed.<p>Consciousness is a consensus mechanism. I&#x27;ve co-authored a book where we talk about what&#x27;s the most computationally robust <i>and</i> biologically plausible model of consciousness. It is only now, two years after the book, that I realized that the best phrasing for what consciousness is must be one that takes into account the Truly Hard Problem of Consciousnss: Who is feeling it? With every other phrasing or definition the &quot;I&quot; is implicit and taken for granted. So the question becomes &quot;Why does this have to feel like anything?&quot;<p>The answer, it turns out, is that both experience and the experiencer are constructed together in a virtuous loop. You are a constellation of experiences. Consciousness is the consensus mechanism by which a chorus emerges in this constellation. And why is one needed? Because the decentralized entity that is you must act as one at all times, and especially when rare risks or outstanding opportunities present themselves. When we take the &quot;I&quot; for granted, we simply do not realize the staggeringly immense computational challenge it is to stitch this subjective self together. What sets apart this explanation is not just this broad-strokes perspective, but the biologically plausible mechanism by which top-down expectations (your past experiences) match up with bottom-up sensory data (ambiguous and potentially overwhelming reality)<p>More here: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;saigaddam.medium.com&#x2F;consciousness-is-a-consensus-mechanism-2b399c9ec4b5" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;saigaddam.medium.com&#x2F;consciousness-is-a-consensus-me...</a> More here:
评论 #40257943 未加载