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Ordered back to the office, top tech talent left instead, study finds

134 点作者 pwnna大约 1 年前

15 条评论

ram_rar大约 1 年前
<a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;archive.md&#x2F;Ih8Oi" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;archive.md&#x2F;Ih8Oi</a>
bravetraveler大约 1 年前
Don&#x27;t hesitate to look. There are offers out there. This was me until recently.<p>I was at my limit of nonsense unrelated to the job... then unclear RTO policies started appearing.<p>I put my foot out of the door and raised my concerns.<p>Management then, in a panic, told me it&#x27;s being used as a wedge. Platitudes like <i>&quot;Enforcement isn&#x27;t likely&quot;</i> or <i>&quot;not worth thinking about&quot;</i>.<p>They were right... but not the way they intended. I chose new employment that doesn&#x27;t play these games.<p>The market has decided I&#x27;m worth an <i>extra</i> $70k&#x2F;year <i>(with 200k in RSUs)</i> and can work remotely. I now make more money, am <i>officially</i> remote, and have less stress.<p>By picking up a new job I&#x27;ve actually shed about seven. It&#x27;s incredible how much burden one can carry.<p>This isn&#x27;t even some fancy dev role, just SRE&#x2F;keeping lights on.<p>I hope the good people I left behind <i>(or those reading this</i>) recognize the game.<p>It&#x27;s the cheapest way to lay people off, get them to leave. The nefarious thing is it costs you, too.<p>Their attempts to retain were repulsing. I was assured that because of <i>&quot;who I am&quot;</i>, I didn&#x27;t need to worry. That validated the choice for me.
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npteljes大约 1 年前
I firmly believe that management doesn&#x27;t, or shouldn&#x27;t mind this. I think a successful company is not necessarily built on top talent, but rather on people whose behavior can be managed - and on managers that are similarly competent. Similar to how on a building site, extraordinary bricklayers are not necessary, only a specific kind of adequacy is.<p>The other thing is that people who have something extraordinary also ask for something extraordinary in return, and that&#x27;s not surprising either, it&#x27;s just power dynamics. Similar to how powerful celebrities can have ridiculous backstage requests - what are they going to do, cancel a show?
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jaydeegee大约 1 年前
Spend 10+ hours and extra expenses commuting, you want to retain valuable staff you have to make that a good value proposition for them.
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pessimizer大约 1 年前
You might even say that they were trying to lay off an overaccumulation of senior &quot;talent&quot; without having to pay them off. RTW is probably mostly covert layoffs; you won&#x27;t see these people replaced, and in a year or two these companies will have significant numbers of employees working from home again.
noufalibrahim大约 1 年前
Since there are a lot of founders here, I&#x27;m curious about what your positions are whether you have any guides&#x2F;references to creating a good environment.<p>My own experience has been that with junior talent, they don&#x27;t gel with the team and don&#x27;t have anything in common with the rest of the employees outside of the project they&#x27;re working on.
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obnauticus大约 1 年前
I think the companies cited in this article might be weird to compare.<p>Apple is very RTO heavy because they’re an old school hardware company. Hardware work is easy to demand in office work because: (1) apple secrecy and prevention of leaks and (2) access to lab equipment. #2 likely holds true for spaceX as well.<p>Adding Microsoft to the mix is weird as nobody I know there actually RTOs.<p>I think people need to actually specifically measure which roles (senior? engineering?) in tech we are discussing RTO about here. I agree that for most software engineering it backfired. But if you’re an apple hardware engineer, there aren’t many places in town that’ll pay you as much so you’ll accept whatever horrible RTO hand you’re dealt. Companies apply these rules to everyone which is very, very stupid IMO.<p>I think the most interesting part about this being on the inside is the rationale behind RTO. It’s always the same citing culture, collaboration, or other fuzzy things. It is never quantitative. Are you telling me that the people making these decisions are doing so without data? I think that’s unlikely, it’s just that the data isn’t in their favor and execs are smart enough than to let remote versus not remote become yet another bargaining chip for an employee, let alone senior ones.<p>TLDR, I think senior vs not senior in tech is likely too much of a generalization. But the people with the actual data aren’t speaking up probably because discussing the results don’t benefit them.
nomilk大约 1 年前
Also interesting (from the abstract of the study itself [1]):<p>&gt; These shifts appear to be driven by employees leaving to larger firms that are direct competitors.<p>[1] <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;harris.uchicago.edu&#x2F;sites&#x2F;default&#x2F;files&#x2F;wright-return-to-office.pdf" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;harris.uchicago.edu&#x2F;sites&#x2F;default&#x2F;files&#x2F;wright-retur...</a>
tail_exchange大约 1 年前
I&#x27;m not seeing this at my workplace. People are doing what they are told, and they are returning to the office. Maybe because losing a job is risky right now, given the current job market.<p>edit: don&#x27;t get me wrong, I don&#x27;t want RTO. I&#x27;m just saying that I&#x27;m personally not seeing people quit over it.
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dmitrygr大约 1 年前
Well, yeah...<p>I am at my current job due to my previous one demanding RTO. As soon as they started taking attendance in the office, I walked out. I know a number of others who did the same, at a number of companies.<p>Then the layoffs started and this paused as people were scared. Now that hiring is picking up again and many feel that the worst is behind us, multiple people from former workplaces that are in full-on RTO mode have already reached out asking how things are at my current workplace and whether we are hiring for remote roles (we are).
thegreatbeanz大约 1 年前
Disclosure: In October 2021 after 10 years working at Apple I left to join Microsoft, so I’m not totally unbiased.<p>I love the sentiment this article is expressing, and anecdotally the thesis holds in my experience: senior engineers have lots of opportunity, so they can (and will) leave if they disagree with office policies.<p>That said, the article is not good journalism. Its own cited data doesn’t actually represent the conclusion it draws.<p>SpaceX took an extremely draconian return-to-office policy and they suffered for it, but they also suffered for Musk being insane, so I’m not sure the causation is 100% there.<p>Apple actually took the next most draconian policy (required 3 days in the office per week from every employee), and in fact Apple’s enforcement of the policy has been extremely draconian. An acquaintance of mine got in trouble for hopping on a plane to visit their dying parent and not filling out the HR form to use their allowed “two weeks per year” of remote working. One of my former departments at Apple has management checking badge in and out times to enforce the policy. That’s insane!<p>Microsoft’s policy has been the most liberal of the three (which isn’t shown in the data). I left Apple in 2021 in the face of being forced back to the office for a fully-remote role at Microsoft on a team that transitioned from fully in the office in 2018 to fully dispersed in 2021. Articles like this (<a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.nytimes.com&#x2F;2022&#x2F;02&#x2F;14&#x2F;technology&#x2F;microsoft-rto.html" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.nytimes.com&#x2F;2022&#x2F;02&#x2F;14&#x2F;technology&#x2F;microsoft-rto....</a>) don’t properly capture Microsoft’s official return to work policy. Microsoft effectively left decisions about returning to the office up to managers and teams, and the corporate leadership incentivized managers to be more liberal by allowing teams to grow more if they hired more remote workers. At one point my team was told that 50% of all new hires were required to be fully remote.<p>The drama day of Microsoft’s policy taking effect which was cited in some articles was really a nothingburger. All you had to do was check the HR website to make sure it properly reflected if you were remote, in-office, or hybrid.
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dmichulke大约 1 年前
Corollary:<p>If you didn&#x27;t leave when ordered back to the office, you&#x27;re not top tech talent.
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throwitaway222大约 1 年前
Does it matter if said top talent was just watching YT all day at home<p>Their heyday was 2016-2019
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mvkel大约 1 年前
Of the -really- talented tech folks I know, the opposite happened.
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tucnak大约 1 年前
Genuine &quot;top talent&quot; is the people that <i>care</i> about the company; they aren&#x27;t leaving.
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