Reasons not to take Lumina's anticavity probiotic

A simpler alternative is xylitol. Not a drug, no FDA approval required. It&#x27;s a plant-based sweetener that cavity-causing mouth bacteria love to ingest, but which provides no sustenance to them. It essentially fills them up and then causes them to starve them to death, helping maintain minimum mouth bacteria. No bacteria, no cavities. Get it in mints or gum like Zellies or PUR (the only two I&#x27;ve found that don&#x27;t include Titanium Dioxide). Take one a day after brushing in the evening so it kills bacteria overnight.<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;zellies.com&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;zellies.com&#x2F;</a><p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;thepurcompany.com&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;thepurcompany.com&#x2F;</a><p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.healthline.com&#x2F;nutrition&#x2F;xylitol-101" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.healthline.com&#x2F;nutrition&#x2F;xylitol-101</a><p>(Also if you have pets, make sure they don&#x27;t get any, xylitol isn&#x27;t good for them, especially dogs)

There is a huge difference in dose between “bacteria in your mouth producing an antibiotic” and “taking an antibiotic for an infection”. Bacteria, even the normal bacteria currently present in your mouth even without taking BCS3L-1, constantly produce antibiotics to kill competing bacteria. But they only produce tiny amounts, enough to affect the competitors in their immediate vicinity, but not nearly enough to cause any kind of systemic effect. If they did, you would already be experiencing these effects right now from all the other antibiotics produced by other bacteria in your mouth. In contrast, antibiotics for medical use are usually given in doses measured in the hundreds of milligrams or even grams, far more than mouth bacteria could ever possibly produce.

Whenever this topic comes up on HN it strikes me as bizarre that anyone thinks they can genetically modify a bacteria, release it into the wild - and that it&#x27;ll stay genetically modified? Like the author mentions, bacteria are constantly swapping genes via horizontal gene transfer. Surely the bacteria in our mouths have found the optimal metabolism for their environment? Why wouldn&#x27;t we expect our genetically modified bacteria to adopt the same strategy?<p>I imagine that you could, at least on paper, create a Rube Goldberg machine in their genes that, say, killed them if they produced lactic acid, and made it very difficult to delete these genes without destroying their ability to reproduce. But you&#x27;ll probably also handicap them in the process and make it difficult for them to adapt to competitive adaptations from other bacteria.

I got a tube of this probiotic. They asked me not to sequence it, but I&#x27;m a little suspicious of putting it in myself, so trust-but-verify (probably Nanoporing). I literally cannot see why sequencing it is a &quot;dick move&quot;, so I think I&#x27;ll be doing it anyway.<p>I do not buy that it is dangerous. However, I haven&#x27;t seen any statistics showing the frequency of mutacin-1140 or its efficiency. Back in 2015 when I was a teen I did an experiment using colicin V (an E.coli one - I was planning on engineering E.coli Nissile to replace my current gut E.coli with something more fun. Got kicked out of the science fair for that one - <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;keonigandall.com&#x2F;posts&#x2F;colicins.html" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;keonigandall.com&#x2F;posts&#x2F;colicins.html</a> ). Turns out, you need a sizable portion of the population to get takeover. I haven&#x27;t seen ANY data on the population percentage necessary for takeover with this strain. Nor have I seen statistics of its natural occurrence percentage.<p>I wanted to modify the strain to have GFP expression, so I can have my own little engineered biome for myself that is showable at parties and such, but it looks like they removed comE :( will have to start from an original strain instead, I guess.

I guess I am going to die from making my own kombucha, kefir, and yogurt because the FDA isn&#x27;t regulating it.<p>WHAT IF... the mass increase in colon cancers in young people is due to gut bacteria colonies being taken over by a strain of bacteria in mouths that also survives stomach acids? What if that is causing the huge increase in IBS? What if the high carb diets and alternative sugars being consumed at mind boggling rates is a root cause? That the oral bacteria has been overtaken by a strain optimized for these carbs but is actively harmful to our bodies?<p>And what if fixing it is a treatment like this?<p>I&#x27;m willing to gamble.<p>Signed,<p>older millenial who has suffered with IBS for years<p>edit: If I could get a fecal transplant procedure in the USA to replace my gut colony I totally would.<p>edit2: fun fact -- did you know Sucralose accumulates in the environment because almost nothing breaks it down? it&#x27;s pretty close to being a forever chemical. We can tell how much treated sewage injected into the water table is leaking into the ocean by measuring the amount of Sucralose in the ocean waters near the shoreline. That and nitrogen. But glug glug drink up those sugar free sodas and energy drinks!

One could try gum with xylitol instead, <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Xylitol" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Xylitol</a><p>from <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.aapd.org&#x2F;globalassets&#x2F;media&#x2F;publications&#x2F;archives&#x2F;ly-28-2.pdf" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.aapd.org&#x2F;globalassets&#x2F;media&#x2F;publications&#x2F;archive...</a><p>&quot;In addition, xylitol has a number of other effects on S mutans that may account for some of its clinical effects in caries reduction. Short-term consumption of xylitol is associated with decreased S mutans levels in both saliva and plaque.15 Long-term habitual consumption of xylitol appears to have a selective effect on S mutans strains. This results in selection for populations that are less virulent and less capable of adhering to tooth surfaces and, thus, are shed more easily from plaque into saliva.&quot;

Relating to fluoride&#x27;s effect on bacterial biofilm - There are several different kinds of fluoride available in toothpaste, and they do not all have the same efficacy against bacterial plaque. Stannous fluoride is considerably more effective than sodium fluoride or sodium monofluorophosphate, but you may need to pay a small amount more for it and actually read the packaging to find it.<p>It&#x27;s hard to find a website discussing it that is not paid for by a toothpaste company, but here&#x27;s something. <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov&#x2F;24660268&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov&#x2F;24660268&#x2F;</a>

&gt; <i>I think this is a terrible idea, as well as probably illegal. Unlike most people in the Bay Area, I think formalized safety and efficacy trials are a must for health products. In fact, I told Aaron Silverbook this when he asked me for my advice about his product last fall.</i><p>No one is going to want to consult you, if you might blog about it, attacking them by name, so... if it was serious enough to burn professional bridges, why not go to the FDA, an Attorney General, a public health authority, an academic-professional society or journal, a Congressperson, or some other channel more official and credible than Substack?

&gt; Taking unapproved drugs is a bad idea<p>What about off-label medication?<p>I don&#x27;t think taking Lumina is smart, more or less for the reasons the author ennumerates. I also think it&#x27;s unlikely enough to hurt people that FDA approval shouldn&#x27;t be required. There&#x27;s a lot of stuff in that category!

Interesting read. Does not seem to be working with the same set of facts as the ACX post[1], especially around FDA approval.<p>[1]: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.astralcodexten.com&#x2F;p&#x2F;defying-cavity-lantern-bioworks-faq" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.astralcodexten.com&#x2F;p&#x2F;defying-cavity-lantern-biow...</a>.

Okay, so what happens if I (french) kiss a person that is taking this bacteria producing continuously mutacin-1140 and ethanol ? Could it take over my mouth, and I would ended up mutacin tolerant, and accelerating my cirrhosis ?

Easiest way to determine whether some health fad is dangerous snake oil: search for it on Twitter and determine the overrepresentation of blue checks. Every character at the end of a screen name that comes from a Unicode &quot;symbol&quot; block counts as ten blue checks. The presence of &quot;&#x2F;dd&quot; counts as 100 blue checks. Simple, effective metric.

&gt;Pictured: Jeffrey Hillman’s origin story. Any resemblance to Tim Burton’s 2005 remake of Willy Wonka is purely coincidental. Ignore the Warner Bros. copyright in the corner.<p>Blogger trying to convince us he&#x27;s presenting a good faith article challenge: impossible

Use Xylitol and Erythritol together:<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;expatcircle.com&#x2F;cms&#x2F;how-to-clean-your-teeth-and-save-money" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;expatcircle.com&#x2F;cms&#x2F;how-to-clean-your-teeth-and-save...</a>

I&#x27;ve never heard about this product, but the tone &amp; narrative of this article made me highly wonder about author&#x27;s intentions.

The Reddit CEO posted a long thread praising it, with distanced language like &quot;How did I get that info? If you ask Lumina, they seemed happy to share&quot;<p>He&#x27;s an investor!

That it&#x27;s marketed as a &quot;cosmetic&quot; and also includes the word &quot;probiotic&quot; is plenty enough reason for me to steer very clear of this.

As soon as I understood &quot;it kills the bacteria in your mouth... by making it a permanently alcoholic environment&quot; I was out.

Came here to be “that guy”. Never had a single cavity in over 50years of being alive and have really bad dental care habits. I brush once a day for about 30 seconds, don’t really floss and have gone up to 6 years between cleanings.<p>I don’t eat a lot of processed foods or foods high in sugar, but I don’t completely abstain from them either.<p>Nothing to do with Lumina directly, but I’ve always been curious about my dental microbiome and how something about it is different from others.<p>I often worry about new products like Lumina upsetting whatever balance I’ve got going on.

I&#x27;m disappointed by the somewhat ad-hominem attack on Silverbook for being a porn producer: &quot;Aaron, based on his previous work as guy at a rationalist nonprofit, videogame producer, and porn producer, decided to recreate Hillman’s work.&quot; Previous work experience is irrelevant, and besides, don&#x27;t at least some of aspire to being polymaths?

&gt; I’ve also been disappointed for some months to see how many people I respect (and some I don’t respect) have been using it&#x2F;promoting it. Taking unapproved drugs is a bad idea, no matter what rationalist bloggers with MDs, porn star&#x2F;escort&#x2F;sex researchers, Twitter guys, or conservative firebrands who get sick immediately after taking the unapproved drug tell you.<p>The &quot;rationalist community&quot; has always been quirky and edgy, but iterations in recent years have felt increasingly reactionary and contrarian at all costs. Being anti-FDA has been a meme in the rationalist community for several years, especially since Scott Alexander (Slate Star Codex &#x2F; Astral Codex Ten) started writing anti-FDA pieces. (Side note: The conservative firebrand they&#x27;re talking about is a person who was caught using a pseudonym to post extremely biased, racist material, who has somehow remained prominent in the community despite the revelations).<p>This appears to have primed the community for &quot;FDA bad&quot; takes, which has triggered their contrarian tendencies to assume that anything that goes against the FDA must therefore be good.<p>A supplement maker publicly defying the FDA and pushing out a miracle treatment without the normal rigor of human trials and safety reviews is the type of behavior that would have triggered skepticism from the rationalist community. Yet because the community has been primed with &quot;FDA bad, anti-FDA good&quot; memes for years and the person pitching this supplement is vaguely connected to the rationalist community, this product has triggered a lot of adoration and praise from the community.<p>The product also exists in a space that is difficult to disprove: The effects of any anti-cavity product can only really be shown over very long periods of time in controlled settings. Anyone who gets a cavity while using this product will surely be dismissed as having a pre-existing cavity growing, or poor oral hygiene, or being a statistical anomaly, or any other number of excuses. At the same time, I&#x27;m sure we&#x27;re about to hear endless anecdotes from people who have been taking the supplement and haven&#x27;t had any cavities (while ignoring the fact that most people also don&#x27;t get cavities in a given year, even without this magic probiotic).<p>It feels like the perfect storm for a grift, and this company is taking the lead and running with it. It&#x27;s weird that a blog post advising some caution and skepticism for a supplement pusher making extraordinary claims who has refused to participate in the normally expected clinical trials. It&#x27;s equally weird to see the self-described rationalist community throwing scientific rigor to the wind and embracing marketer&#x27;s claims.<p>I don&#x27;t entirely understand what&#x27;s going on here, but I think it&#x27;s strange that an article advising a modicum of skepticism for supplement pushers is now considered a contrarian take in the rationalist community.

I was hoping for a more thorough explanation for why this particular regimen is dangerous. Instead this is a rather lengthy essay which ultimately relies on the appeal to authority fallacy. Not to say I think people should just put random things into their bodies - It is indeed probably not the best idea.<p>That said, I&#x27;m not sure I learned anything new after reading this.