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Home-Cooked Software and Barefoot Developers

322 点作者 stevekrouse11 个月前

29 条评论

9dev11 个月前
If I have learnt one thing working in software engineering, specifically on AI-enabled products empowering junior engineers, and using Copilot professionally, it’s that you need <i>even more</i> experience to detect the subtleties in the lack of the models understanding of your domain, your specific intent. If you don’t know exactly what you’re after, and use the LLM as a sparring partner to bounce your ideas off, you’re in for a lot of pain.<p>Depending on the way you phrase questions, ChatGPT will gleefully suggest you a wrong approach, just because it’s so intent on satisfying your whim instead of saying No when it would be appropriate.<p>And in addition to that, you don’t learn by figuring out a new concept. If you already have a feeling of the code you would write anyway, and only treat the model as a smart autocomplete, that doesn’t matter. But for an apprentice, or a layperson, that will keep code as scary and unpredictable as before. I don’t think that should be the answer.
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charlie011 个月前
Sounds great, but this won&#x27;t work out to the way the author imagines it. We have a very strong bias towards anything technical, but if you&#x27;ve ever worked outside the SWE field, you&#x27;ll see that half of the people simply aren&#x27;t interested in &quot;thinking&quot;. They don&#x27;t like or enjoy their jobs. They sure as hell aren&#x27;t going to sit there and think, &quot;how do I take this problem and break it down into a dozen&#x2F;hundreds of small steps to create a small app that solves my problem?&quot;<p>The majority of people are content with learning the bare minimum needed to get by and never having to learn anything new. Don&#x27;t believe, the proof is self evident the moment you try to update a UI that requires users to do things differently than before.<p>And this is all fine, I&#x27;ve accepted it by now. It&#x27;s the way it&#x27;s always been and always will be. Still, these new tools will empower a relatively small percentage of the population to create amazing open source apps that will be used by a lot of people. The tools also very much empower pro-developers to build a lot more apps with less efforts than before, which I&#x27;m looking forward to.
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liampulles11 个月前
Unpopular opinion inbound: what will spark a barefoot developer revolution is not LLM auto-coding, its making spreadsheet software more easily extendable and FUN.<p>By extendable, I mean doing things like generating and sending emails, and using plugins to integrate with external services. By fun, I mean non-enterprisey, something that one would WANT to engage in as a hobby and that a total novice can pick up and gradually learn. Something you can engage in with friends.<p>I know that there are things that meet the extendable part of the equation, its the fun hobby part that I don&#x27;t think has been cracked yet.<p>I think a big part of why I became a coder is because I enjoyed playing with Microsoft Access as a kid - but I&#x27;m a weird nerd, so I don&#x27;t think that&#x27;ll cut it for others.
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skadamat11 个月前
For people who want more examples of this “vibe”, here’s a tiny subset of places &#x2F; people &#x2F; projects to check out:<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;futureofcoding.org&#x2F;catalog&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;futureofcoding.org&#x2F;catalog&#x2F;</a><p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;cristobal.space&#x2F;writing&#x2F;folk-computer.html" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;cristobal.space&#x2F;writing&#x2F;folk-computer.html</a><p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;dynamicland.org&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;dynamicland.org&#x2F;</a><p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.inkandswitch.com&#x2F;local-first&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.inkandswitch.com&#x2F;local-first&#x2F;</a><p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.geoffreylitt.com&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.geoffreylitt.com&#x2F;</a><p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;maggieappleton.com&#x2F;folk-interfaces" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;maggieappleton.com&#x2F;folk-interfaces</a>
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bawolff11 个月前
Personally i&#x27;d rather we bridge the gap between using excel and writing python with something that is between the two, rather than relying on LLMs.<p>Call me a skeptic, but i remain very unconvinced that LLMs will be the enabling tool that lets non programmers program.
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panphora11 个月前
This is my dream to. It goes something like this:<p>- Find any cool tool online, download it, use it locally. Your data is persisted to your own local machine and your own personal cloud.<p>- Visit any website, download it as your own, modify it. Host it as your own and continue to add to it online.<p>- Browser vendors implement user accounts &amp; hosting into the browser, so anyone can make a working app locally with a little bit of HTML and serve it to the whole internet with the press of a button.<p>- If your app takes off and goes viral, part of the economic value provided flows back to you through micropayments.<p>Basically: portable HTML &quot;objects&quot; that can be treated as mutable apps instead of only static documents = like GitHub + Codepen + Vercel + NoCode in one neat little package.
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ximm11 个月前
The author makes it sound like most software in the world is software that is made to scale. I strongly doubt that. I would say that at least ~50% of software is ad-hoc scripts or specialized tools for single organizations.<p>It is no wonder that the software that is used by a large number of people is talked about more than software that is only used by a handful. Home-Cooked Software already exists, it is just not as easy to see.
subjectsigma11 个月前
AI&#x2F;ML is going to absolutely destroy the first generations of junior developers. They won’t get enough practice doing software development by themselves and won’t know enough to fix subtle bugs introduced by the code. It’s like using a graphing calculator in high school. Probably perfectly OK for a smart kid taking calc his senior year, but would absolutely be used as a crutch by struggling or lazy students in a pre-algebra class.<p>Right now AI is mostly controlled by mega corps abusing copyright laws because they can get away with it. I seriously doubt this is going to drastically change.<p>Basically, I don’t understand this authors cute, homely portrayal of AI.
seabird11 个月前
People just don&#x27;t care and won&#x27;t do it if it requires more than a fleeting thought to get it done. Excel is comically powerful and only a tiny fraction of users have any interest in tapping into that. Every step of the way, for the last 50 years, pretty much all parties involved have actively worked to move away from end-user programming.<p>Words can&#x27;t describe how happy I would be if that wasn&#x27;t the case, but it&#x27;s better to walk than curse the road. Changing this would require pretty much everybody on the planet to re-evaluate how they interact with a computer, and I&#x27;m not holding out on that.
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chrisweekly11 个月前
I love ~everything about this. I&#x27;ve been doing software engineering as a career since the late 90&#x27;s and think she&#x27;s spot-on about both the local-first movement and &quot;barefoot developers&quot;. @stevekrouse, thanks for posting -- and @maggieappleton, please keep doing what you do!
zokier11 个月前
I wish people gushing on ML code generation would familiarize themselves with SW development history bit more. For example the introduction of SEQUEL (predecessor of SQL) paper is worth reading, its just few pages: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;web.archive.org&#x2F;web&#x2F;20070926212100&#x2F;http:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.almaden.ibm.com&#x2F;cs&#x2F;people&#x2F;chamberlin&#x2F;sequel-1974.pdf" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;web.archive.org&#x2F;web&#x2F;20070926212100&#x2F;http:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.almade...</a><p>Key quote:<p>&gt; Much of the success of the computer industry depends on developing a class of users other than trained computer specialists<p>I believe COBOL had similar aspirations to be language for non-professional developers. One of the first high-level languages were called autocodes because they automated code generation. Sound familiar?<p>The difference between compiler and ML model is not that great from high level. Both take human-readable(&#x2F;writable) input and produce machine-executable code in the end.<p>Huge amounts of SW engineering has been already automated and delegated. Consider how much effort setting up a CRUD application would be if you were writing machine code on bare metal system compared to writing high-level language and leveraging stuff like Linux and PostgreSQL.
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matrix8711 个月前
It isn&#x27;t even that high of a barrier for entry though? If someone <i>really</i> wants a piece of software that does something, there&#x27;s probably already some python library for it. calling some imported python function isn&#x27;t hard<p>if someone is too lazy to find some python library to import, but driven enough to come up with an unambiguous way of telling a model to do something in natural language, that&#x27;s a borderline non-existent demographic<p>really it&#x27;s kind of baffling to me, some people just hear &quot;code&quot; and think we&#x27;re talking about some undecipherable thing like the Voynich manuscript. makes me feel like the guy out of the Zen and Motorcycle maintenance book who was confused why his friend refused to figure out how to fix his own bike. some people just refuse to learn. if they wanted to, they would have already
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alabhyajindal11 个月前
&gt; They [barefoot developers] are the kinds of people who would be thrilled to have more agency and power over computers.<p>I don&#x27;t think this is true. No-code software development solutions have existed for a while now and we have not seen a rapid increase in software being built.<p>Technical people who are non-programmers are not interested in having power over computers at all. They want to get their work done. And if doing this work requires too much work, they&#x27;ll give up on the task than learn the thing.
password432111 个月前
Sandstorm? <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;hn.algolia.com&#x2F;?dateRange=all&amp;query=sandstorm&amp;sort=byPopularity" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;hn.algolia.com&#x2F;?dateRange=all&amp;query=sandstorm&amp;sort=b...</a><p><i>an open source platform for self-hosting web apps</i>
iwontberude11 个月前
Not a single mention of Open Source Software. The author is missing a huge piece of the puzzle.
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anotherhue11 个月前
Great talk, more for the new-developer than the cynical seasoned pro but I love the direction.
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fire_lake11 个月前
Analysis seems flawed to me.<p>They claim that large companies can never support the long tail since it’s too expensive to produce those features.<p>But they also claim that cost of software production is going to fall dramatically such that people can build their own apps for small user-bases.<p>I don’t mean to sound negative, since I love the picture painted by Local First, but I don’t think it will work out that way.
bitwize11 个月前
Back in the day (1970s-1980s), every computer came with BASIC or something preinstalled -- often in ROM. Growing up I thought computers were for programming as bikes were for riding or pencils were for writing with. Using someone else&#x27;s program was always an option, but you always had the full capability of the machine ready to put to your own uses, and an easy way to get started.<p>We forwent this in favor of getting that consoomer dollar. We gave the user ever more elaborate premade applications, which is nice; meanwhile, programming environments went from the default mode of interaction with the machine to expensive add-ins (thinking of early Windows with Visual Basic and ToolBook). HyperCard was free on the Mac, but didn&#x27;t keep pace with the machine&#x27;s expanding capabilities. QBasic was perfect for the DOS environment, but it didn&#x27;t really transition to Windows except as Visual Basic, which again was an expensive add-on. Speaking of, even the RAD tools of yesteryear are largely gone. We have open-source dev environments now, but they aren&#x27;t approachable the way microcomputer BASIC was. Getting someone set up with Node or even Rails requires command-line jiggery-pokery and installing all sorts of dependencies, just to get started.<p>And now, we&#x27;re somehow hoping that a somewhat cleverer Dissociated Press is going to bring back citizen programmers? Fuck no. If we want end users to program their own apps, we have to find our way out of the shit we created, not add new layers of shit to deal with the old layers. The pathway to citizen programmers is making programming accessible, with full capabilities available, with documentation, right from the jump. No toy languages (e.g. Small Basic). Kids should be able to write turtle-drawing programs with the same language&#x2F;environment adults use to build real-world applications.
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thebeardisred11 个月前
With all due respect to the author, I take umbrage with the statement &quot;They never end up in the terminal, because that is a huge jump in complexity, usability, and frustration from using something like Airtable or Notion.&quot;<p>Using the command line isn&#x27;t more complex, it&#x27;s differently complex. It&#x27;s differently complex and writ large, schools make no effort to teach it.
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hyfgfh11 个月前
I wonder if LLMs is the new low-code.<p>A promise that is never going to work.
fragmede11 个月前
The way I would support local-first databases is to promote Sqlite db files as the replacement for CSV files, and so everytime you see CSV file support, ask customer service to ask their tech team about when they will support the Sqlite db export format.
Bjorkbat11 个月前
I don&#x27;t know. My personal take is that low-code&#x2F;no-code tools should have ushered in an era of homemade software, but it didn&#x27;t. It&#x27;s something I think about a lot, incidentally. We&#x27;ve had the technology to make software using a GUI rather than a text editor for a <i>very</i> long time, and yet programmers still use text editors, and programming in general hasn&#x27;t really been all that democratized. At best, it&#x27;s now possible to create a website without knowing how to code, but it usually isn&#x27;t a particularly good one.<p>A simple explanation is that the devil is in the details when it comes to implementation. Edge cases and granular behavior are hard to capture except in granular snippets of code. I&#x27;m not convinced that LLMs necessarily solve this problem. Even if you are working with a theoretically quite competent LLM, there are still going to be instances where describing what you want is actually challenging, to the point where it would be easier if you just did it yourself. You could argue that this doesn&#x27;t matter in the case of simple software, but I think we underestimate what people really expect out of something that&#x27;s &quot;simple&quot;, and I think we underestimate people&#x27;s tendency to grow bored of old toys, especially if they don&#x27;t work as expected.<p>If anything, my belief is that LLMs by themselves aren&#x27;t necessarily going to make this a reality. You need an accessible and empowering UX&#x2F;UI to go along with it. Otherwise, asking an LLM to build software for you probably won&#x27;t be much of a fun experience aside from those who are AI enthusiasts foremost.<p>Side note, I have painful feelings about so many UX researchers I used to admire jumping on board the AI hype train so uncritically. I kind of get it, their job is to speculate on new possibilities a tech offers without getting too hung up on external complications. Still, I feel disillusioned. It seems that prior to all of this these same people were questioning our implicit assumptions with how we interact with computers in <i>really</i> interesting ways (in the same vein as Bret Victor). Now, their takes are starting to converge with that of the usual anonymous midwit AI enthusiast on Twitter who pivoted from crypto.<p>Put more bluntly, the idea that LLMs will usher in a golden age of people making simple software is kind of a boring speculative future, a speculative future shared and talked about by the most uninspired and boring people on Twitter.
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runningamok11 个月前
There is a lot of reason to be excited about local-first and how it could enable much lower costs to build useful apps (both in terms of money and skills). AI will certainly spur that on.<p>But I think local-first will be of the biggest benefit to small teams of professional developers who can see local opportunities bigger corporations are missing. At least in the short term.<p>There are barefoot developers too, but it&#x27;s not as simple as professional vs barefoot — there&#x27;s a spectrum of app developers, each with their own economic rationale.
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leke11 个月前
Really interesting article. It feels a little like what I heard about VisualBasic and REBOL back in the day. AI definitely helps, but I&#x27;m still not convinced it will be able to create anything but really simple apps. Likely it will facilitate those people who are maxing out tools like Excel even further.<p>As well as being a professional developer, I also do these local first types of apps, so I expect once the AI tools become good enough, we will be the first to figure out how to use them.
ozim11 个月前
Just use OSS that already is there and contribute to it and we have it covered - no need for „everyone becoming a developer” and there are tons of local first OSS tools.<p>Where contributing is using OSS, commenting on it, sharing work done with OSS tools with others, filling in bug requests and maybe even paying something for it.<p>Working with tools and sharing work done with tools is important because everyone is using photoshop instead of Gimp, everyone is using Excel instead of libre office.
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hermitcrab11 个月前
&quot;I&#x27;m not saying everything Mao did was great&quot;<p>Understatement of the (20th) century!<p>Some interesting ideas. But it seems to make out that nearly all professional software is developed by mega corporations in California. But there are lots of small software companies, open source developers and hobbyists developing a vast range of apps for different niches. More would be good, though.
tcsenpai11 个月前
The blog layout is truly fascinating
Foreignborn11 个月前
kinda disappointing comments in this thread. Thanks to LLMs I have built more home cooked software than ever.<p>I’m not an engineer, but I&#x27;ve written more code this year than ever. LLMs have helped me tackle a huge backlog of projects at home that I wouldn&#x27;t have been able to justify starting before. And I know 3-5 others doing similarly (we have a group chat).<p>Off the top of my head, this year I’ve made:<p>- webscrapers<p>- notification agents<p>- websites<p>- data manipulation and charting<p>- IaC devops for my entire homelab<p>- an RPG (well, a roguelike)<p>- applets for OBS<p>- chrome extensions to glue together a bunch of stuff I do to study Japanese<p>I’ve written projects in languages I’ve never used like rust and elixir, and learned a ton. Am I gonna switch ladders to be a SWE? Nope, but for better or worse have stopped asking my SWE friends for help.<p>And lately, between RAG and large context models, it’s much easier to improve existing projects. Typing, refactoring, linting, documentation generation, and GitHub ops are now practically effortless.
timmit11 个月前
I like this article, I just don&#x27;t think it will work in capitalism world.<p>I could be wrong.