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50 条评论

archgrove将近 13 年前
The argument doesn't really hold up, as we're only given two choices: Upgradable, or amazing screen. If there was a third, "Upgradable <i>and</i> amazing screen" with the applicable price/weight tradeoffs, then the "we can choose" view would be more tenable.<p>Regardless, the lack of upgradability isn't something that bugs me. My last two Apple laptops were "upgradable", but all I ever did was throw some RAM in there. The subset of people who want to really tinker inside their machines is vastly outweighed by people who want a very lightweight machine, so offering the "lightweight" option is a no-brainer. The lack of a upgradable machines as an <i>option</i> is presumably beause they've done the maths and realised that the number of people who choose that won't warrant the costs of maintaining the product line; viz. the death of the 17" Macbook LapCrusher(tm).<p>There was a comment (I think here) yesterday that said, effectively, "Upgradability was a defect of technology not being 'good enough' for long periods". These days, the stock specs of the Macbook Retina will be fine for even power users for <i>years</i>; almost certainly the life of a laptop. The tiny group of "super power users" are those likely to just upgrade their laptops every couple of years anyway.
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generalk将近 13 年前
I'm on the fence. On the one hand, the new MBP is a fantastic machine and if I pay the premium for the 16GB of RAM, I'm probably going to be set for years.<p>That said, I'm currently running the <i>original</i> Late 2008 Unibody Macbook Pro. It's survived for four years because I've been able to, over time, upgrade the RAM, replace the spinning disk with an SSD, and replace the aging battery. SSDs weren't available when I purchased the machine, but because it uses standard connections the upgrade was easy. I didn't pay an Apple premium for RAM, I waited a few years and the price dropped even more. And the battery was a 2-second replacement.<p>I don't know if I'm comfortable giving that ability up.
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reneherse将近 13 年前
There is one thing that to me indicates Apple has really thought through the consequences of this new design: The fact that the SSD is socketed and thus user removable. The machine retains that most critical aspect of home or in-store servicability.<p>Why this is important: the specific failure case where you have a faulty logic board, or any other failure that requires a full machine replacement. You still have the ability to pull out your drive and replace or wipe it before sending the machine back to Apple for either a complete replacement or "depot" repair. (No doubt there will be SSDs available with the new connector soon.)<p>So sure, we've lost the ability for the most common, fun, and economical upgrades, and that's a let down for those of us who like to tinker. But the construction of the machine still allows you to protect your personal data before sending your machine off to be repaired, and I have to believe that is the most critical issue for power users.
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gokhan将近 13 年前
The title part "But should we really blame Apple?" rather than the original "UNFIXABLE, UNHACKABLE, UNTENABLE" is a perfect replacement for Apple loving HN crowd.
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illamint将近 13 年前
I've always been in the camp that rarely replaces the battery in my Mac laptops, especially with the new LiPo batteries. It's not like they're NiCads that need replacing every month (I remember having a <i>stack</i> of batteries for my Powerbook Duo). Additionally, in the past, the only other components I've replaced have been drives (adding an SSD) and memory (upgrading to the max amount supported by the board). In this case, you've already got those. If you go the 16GB route and pick an SSD appropriate to your needs (I'd never want to trust 768GB of data to one drive in a portable machine, anyways), what's left to upgrade?<p>Seriously, most people talk about adding SSDs and replacing drives: it already <i>has</i> an SSD that is near-as-makes-no-difference fast enough to saturate the SATA bus. People expecting to get the one-time boost they got from going to a 5400RPM drive to a blazing-fast SSD won't ever experience that again until we push past SATA interfaces. The 16GB of RAM you can option it out with is also pretty close to not only the limits of practicality but also the limits of the chipset. So, those points are moot. Max out the RAM and pick any SSD and you'll never need to touch them during the lifetime of the computer, and if you could, it wouldn't have any real effect. The SSD is even socketed so--should it die--you can replace it.<p>And, sure, the screen is hard to replace, but it's not like Apple's ever been the pinnacle of upgradability anyways. What were you expecting, a socketed processor and some thumbscrews so you could drop in a new chip? Whether you know it or not, this serves the needs of well over 99% of Apple's market for the MacBook Pro, and if it doesn't serve yours--if you really insist that you must be able to replace and/or repair <i>every single component</i> in your computer, then a Mac wasn't for you in the <i>first</i> place. Two Thunderbolt ports and two USB 3.0 ports further drive the point home. I do, like many of you, lament the loss of the "hacker" ethos that enables us to modify our computers and drop in new parts, but we're kidding ourselves. This isn't a new state of affairs and we're making a mountain out of a molehill.
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bitwize将近 13 年前
Steve Jobs had a dream of selling sealed boxes to customers who would treat them as appliances, like toasters. That's what he's been pushing for, and now Apple is on track to doing it. So they deserve half the culpability, inasmuch as this is a bad thing. The other half is with the people who buy such machines.
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fjorder将近 13 年前
Okay... This is kind of important:<p>The new Macbook Pro's use Apple's proprietary pentalobe screw.<p>That statement probably didn't rock your world, but it's one reason why I'm not buying a macbook pro. This screw has one purpose and one purpose only: to keep you out of your own laptop. The Air's have been using them for a while. You may think that you can get a driver when you need one, but it's not as easy as you think. Apple will not lend or sell you a pentalobe driver. They're probably actively trying to sue anyone who will. If you can get one, it will most likely be from an online source and take weeks to arrive.<p>Why is this bad?<p>Most users, myself included, don't plan for failure. Life is life. Stuff breaks. I can fix a lot of it. I've owned relatively few laptops over the years because I nurse them along into extreme obsolescence. I've spilled coffee on my laptops many times. If you power-down and remove the battery immediately and do some careful disassembly/cleaning you can rescue almost any laptop from a coffee spill no matter how much sugar and cream you take in your joe. Provided you have the tools to take it apart that is!<p>My air lasted exactly one spill. I couldn't remove the battery. I couldn't take it apart. Apple refused to do either for me. They made me wait 4 hours for an appointment so they could tell me it's now off warranty and offer to repair it for, I kid you not, more than I paid to buy the air new!<p>The end result is that my nice 2011 machine aluminum unibody air had a total life-time of less than a year. These devices may feel like they're built to last, but a device built to last is <i>serviceable</i>. The air's and now the pro's are built to be disposable.
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acdha将近 13 年前
&#62; Would we support laptops that required replacement every year or two as applications required more memory and batteries atrophied?<p>This is the key misunderstanding most people made: a 2010 MacBook Air still makes a fine system, even for software developers. For almost all users, hardware capacity has exceeded their needs for years and the newer battery technology holds up better than the older designs as well.
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forgottenpaswrd将近 13 年前
I bought an Asus netbook some years ago. The battery(easy to put or remove) died pretty soon, so I went to see the replacement new battery cost more that what I paid for the netbook.<p>As it has a special shape is it very difficult to replace with a generic battery, and it is on purpose.<p>I see all the manufacturers doing the same if they can. As a geek I could make it to work but 90% of the people can't.
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taude将近 13 年前
I agree with the article, it makes valid points. However, you're paying for a luxury item that's a powerful computer and something with an inherently short lifespan. Take it for what it is. You won't be upgrading this machine, but selling it and buying a better one in two or three years. If you're the type of person buying this MBPro now, you're surely going to want the latest and greatest sooner than later. Most people don't work on their modern day cars with all their custom parts, so what's the big deal about a computer?
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jzeltman将近 13 年前
I know this isn't the place to say this, but. Think about the context of who they're [Apple] going after now.<p>Regular people who don't care whatsoever if they can upgrade their RAM or have a bigger hard-drive.<p>They want something that just works. Furthermore, even though applications eventually require more RAM or computing power, the majority of Apple products purchased today will handle that for years to come, especially when most people use them as facebook machines. They aren't running xCode alongside of Photoshop along side of Chrome with 20 tabs open.
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Steko将近 13 年前
Reminds me of this debate that played out when the ipad was released:<p><a href="http://daringfireball.net/2010/01/various_ipad_thoughts" rel="nofollow">http://daringfireball.net/2010/01/various_ipad_thoughts</a><p><a href="http://radar.oreilly.com/2010/01/the-ipad-is-the-iprius-your-co.html" rel="nofollow">http://radar.oreilly.com/2010/01/the-ipad-is-the-iprius-your...</a><p>As noted, this war was already fought and lost with automobiles. People overwhelmingly prefer the advantages gained over the tradeoff in self-serviceability.
jbellis将近 13 年前
I don't buy that thin-and-light requires glued batteries, soldered ram, and proprietary hdd connectors. As exhibits A, B and C I cite my Thinkpad 420s and the machines I almost got instead, the Samsung series 9 and Sony Vaio Z.
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jalfresi将近 13 年前
I used to be on the PC component treadmill for years. I'm a developer by trade and I got fed up with maintaining the hardware of my various computers, preferring to concentrate on coding. Now when it comes to hardware I prefer to buy the best I can afford, as fully specced as I can afford with the intention that the hardware should last me for 5 years. Being upgradable all of a sudden is not an issue for me anymore. It means I bought my 11" Air with the spec maxed out (yes even the expensive RAM) because I had too: it had to last me 5 years and is not user upgradeable.<p>I've never been happier with my current hardware choices and I dont have to fret over with processor has 0.2Ghz benefit or which ram has 100Ghz clock speed over whatever. I get to concentrate on writing servers in Go all day :)
jcoder将近 13 年前
You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means:<p>&#62; unserviceable — adjective &#62; not in working order or fulfilling its function adequately; unfit for use.<p>Is the submitter arguing that the closed nature of the machine prevents it from fulfilling it's function, or did they just decide to change the original title which used accurate wording ("Unfixable, Unhackable") on a whim?
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kenrikm将近 13 年前
Purchase New Apple Laptop -&#62; Sell on Ebay after 12months having only lost $200(average) in depreciation -&#62; Purchase New model. I have followed this cycle since 2004, It's kind of like leasing but on my own terms.<p>I personally feel that $200/year is a very small price to pay for a machine that brings in the bacon. I spend a LOT MORE to keep my Adobe CS Master up to date.
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theorique将近 13 年前
What's the life cycle on laptops?<p>I tend to upgrade every 18 months or so. I'm sure many other professionals and power users upgrade even more frequently.<p>At this rate, as the article states, we've voted with our actions.
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Hoff将近 13 年前
Increased integration has been the goal of most everybody involved in designing and building computers, since before transistors were formed into integrated circuits.<p>At the same time, a goal of less necessary maintenance, too.<p>Vacuum tubes (valves) are gone.<p>Connectors and moving parts are removed.<p>The field-replaceable units (FRUs) get larger and larger, and whole peripheral units get swapped where that's possible.<p>It used to be that you swapped a head-disk assembly within a disk drive. That you had periodic maintenance visits to clean or replace the air filters on your servers and clean out the dust bunnies and dust rhinos. That you isolated to the board and repaired it, or used a wire-wrap tool to fix a loose wire on the backplane. That you unscrewed and swapped a switch. That you modified configuration switches to re-address I/O cards.<p>This trend is all part of what was once known as solid-state electronics. Where a designer looks to remove the "stuff" that fails and that takes up space and time and manufacturing effort, that requires stocking more SKUs in manufacturing, whether that's connectors or CRTs or disk drives or daughter-cards or whatever. And you work to remove the humans from the repair and maintenance process where you can, as that's a source of problems, and costs.<p>And yes, the hobbyist and enthusiast market has different goals and designs than the mass market. If you're looking to tweak and incremental upgrades (short of swapping FRUs), then you probably won't be buying a MacBook Pro Retina.
marknutter将近 13 年前
For years Apple has wanted to get closer and closer to the "appliance" model for their products. They are targeting consumers who's gut instinct when it comes to fixing their computers is to call a "geek". These consumers just want the damn things to work and would rather not worry about upgrading it over time. This is of course very unattractive to the hacker crowd, but they make up a much smaller percentage of the computer using public now than they did 20 years ago.
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ctdonath将近 13 年前
Seems nobody is addressing the supply-chain issues. If Apple, say, makes the MBP-R battery replaceable: they then have to design for user-replaceability (both battery and case), provide replacement batteries as a separate SKU part, provide covers as a replacement part, include new cases &#38; connectors etc. in the supply chain, devote manufacturing lines to building &#38; packaging user-handleable batteries, ship them as separate products, devote store space to them, deal with return/replacement thereof, provide personnel support/service, and so on ... all for something which 95% of all users won't use or won't care if they can't.<p>Being so keen on minimalism for the sake of cost savings, Apple eliminates a huge cost sink by just gluing long-lasting batteries into a sealed case. Re-routing the savings, they can pour more money into the battery power &#38; longevity <i>and</i> reduce the final product cost, delighting users ... and, of course, increase profits.
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Tloewald将近 13 年前
If theydriver hey made the battery and drive readily upgradable by technicians I think the article would be moot. They didn't so it isn't. Today's laptops tend to sell with the maximum addressable ram in them (apple only charges $200 for the 16GB option).<p>I had a PowerBook 1400 - the most modular and upgradable apple laptop ever, with the CPU on a daughtercard. When I upgraded the CPU the laptop was still pretty useless because the ram was maxed out. Today, CPU progress is far slower, you're almost certain to have maxed out RAM, so the only things that really matter are storage and battery.
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dutchbrit将近 13 年前
Good way for Apple to make extra cash. It's not something most consumers consider when buying a laptop, and forces them to get Apple to fix problems or buy a new Mac if repairs are too expensive. However, it's going to be extra painful for the genius bar to fix laptops under warranty. Note to self, get Apple Care next time I buy a Mac!!<p>It's like new cars, all that plastic under the hood to make it harder "force" owners to go to the garage for simple part replacements..
toemetoch将近 13 年前
Since when is a soldering iron high tech? Since when can't you solder SMD chips due to the small pitch? They're not BGA, so you can solder them, even with that pitch.<p>Dear HN "hackers". Removing and adding RAM from a fool-proof socket that is found on most motherboards isn't hacking. Figuring out pincompatibility, configuration and (de)soldering SMD chips: that's hacking.
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Aykroyd将近 13 年前
These sort of arguments bug me. I won't repeat the great criticisms that have already been made. One of the types of things that he says that get me are completely unsupportable statements like: " Apple products have historically retained their value quite well, in part due to third-party repair manuals, but also due to a number of very modular, very upgradeable designs."<p>Not only would he probably be unable to find any evidence for that as being a reason but it doesn't pass the common sense test. PCs are very upgradeable as well... I'd argue more so... so clearly that's not the reason that macs have better resale value.<p>In the end, he sounds like an old mechanic complaining that fuel injection is worse than carburetors because they're less tunable. The car industry has already gone this direction making it harder and harder for amateurs to tinker and fix their vehicles and yet cars today are safer, faster, and more reliable than cars 20 years ago.
KeyBoardG将近 13 年前
I think the bigger realization is that with cloud services pushing to become commonplace that the personal computers we use are just appliances. Use them until they break, discard.<p>Wasteful? Very.<p>Edit: Don't downvote because you hate it. I hate it too. Its just where things are going as computers are becoming commodities.
mnl将近 13 年前
I don't get this "less options is better" vibe. Applying this logic the best thing is having just one option, isn't it? The fact that Apple reduce costs and their customers are always happy doesn't make it a good engineering solution IMHO.
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brianfryer将近 13 年前
"When we choose a short-lived laptop over a more robust model that’s a quarter of an inch thicker, what does that say about our values?"<p>It says that we value our time, and have other things we wish to do with our time than spend it upgrading a computer.
supar将近 13 年前
I've been recently travelling with several friends for a long trip. It was very fun to see how you cannot use any recent macbook or an ipad as a "portable" computer anymore, as you cannot swap the battey with a fresh one. Sitting on a power source while waiting for the thing to recharge is also very fun when you know you could be able to just pre-charge another one.<p>Very sad in my opinion, as the swappable battery is essentially what makes an "appliance" portable. Recent mp3/music players, phones and pads have basically the same issue. You can't simply <i>continue</i> to use the device while the second battery is recharging.
51Cards将近 13 年前
The upgrade-ability aspect is not what gets me, it's the service-ability. Screens crack, Ram chips and SSDs fail. Under warranty, fine... but a LOT of these machines are going to see use well beyond warranty as Macs hold a resale value.<p>I would really think twice about buying a non-warrantied notebook (or new if I planned to keep it for years) where a back-light fail or crack means a whole new lid, and a bad RAM chip means a whole new logic board (and I'm sure not for the cost of the bad RAM chip). Do I want to potentially be without my notebook for days because its battery reached its known cycle limit?
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splamco将近 13 年前
Apple people who justify buying expensive technology that can't be repaired are like people who don't mind being spied on because they have nothing to hide. Apple has traded engineering principles for another dollar.
gdi2290将近 13 年前
I really don't like the way Tim Cook is handling Apple :/ he seems to care more about profits without any real vision<p>Note: I'm not an apple fan-boy and this article seems a bit bias since his business revolves fixing hardware
abalashov将近 13 年前
This ultra-thin laptop craze makes me wonder about durability. For instance, I usually type on an IBM Model M keyboard at my office desktop, or a similar Unicomp at home. Try as I might, I am accustomed to a fairly violent, intense, high-speed mode of typing and can't be as soft on laptop keyboards as their fragile design would like. It makes me wonder if I would totally destroy one of these Air devices in a month or so. It is one reason why I have tended to favour Lenovo's somewhat blandly traditional, but very durable designs.
ctdonath将近 13 年前
Apple realized users realized notebooks get replaced far more than they get upgraded or [non-Apple] repaired. Why expend money/volume/weight/logistics for something most consumers won't use?
meterplech将近 13 年前
I think this is proves Apple is going to continue holding design and user experience above all else even with Steve Jobs no longer at the helm. In reality you operate under a very fixed amount of constraints, and easier upgradeability would make the laptop bulkier in a way that is against Apple's design principles. They made a tough design decision given engineering constraints - just like they did when they removed the disc drive from the Air. I bet consumers respond in turn.
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stantona将近 13 年前
To me the Macbook Pro is a misnoma, if it's designed for "pros" to do whatever they want with them. The fact is when you buy a mac, you work with it's constraints, both hardware and OS (try setting up the perfect macosx and linux dual boot environment). If we expect high spec with compact design, we need to confront the fact that our options for upgrading are limited. Apple are merging high specs with slim compact design, so something has to give here.
metatronscube将近 13 年前
Oh well, if you don't like it buy something else, but to be perfectly honest, 90% of folk out there will not be bothered with this at all. They are probably buying the laptop for its portability, price point and performance and like every aspect of life, there are trade offs. I would be quite happy (very happy in fact) with buying the new Macbook knowing that it has no upgrade ability.
jdietrich将近 13 年前
"Unrepairable Apple hardware bad" says Apple hardware repair company.<p>Bravo to iFixit for their PR efforts, but it's clear that the market simply doesn't care.
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jsz0将近 13 年前
I've been using the MacBook Air since 2008 which shares many of the same design choices. It hasn't been an issue at all. The resale value of Apple computers has to be considered too. If I can resell my old machine for 50-60% of it's original list price then upgrade-by-replacement is a good strategy. I only paid about $300 to upgrade from the 2008 MBA to the late 2012 MBA.
rabidsnail将近 13 年前
Is there really no way to get the batteries out without splattering them everywhere? My current Macbook Pro (which is seven years old and still limping along) has required two battery replacements. If I want my next laptop to last longer than three years I'm going to have to figure out a way to replace the batteries.
nsomething将近 13 年前
I dislike propriety SDD connectors mainly. Full disk encryption and backup are even more musts.<p>I enjoyed migrating foolishly unbacked up data from a laptop with a dead [Insert failed component that's not the drive] by popping the 2.5" drive into an external enclosure. Now I have to give my drive to somebody else? Or use iCloud.<p>Tough sell to me
Limes102将近 13 年前
I would have preferred it if Apple had designed it to be the same thickness, given it a bigger battery, took out the CD drive and allowed us to replace SSD and RAM... As great as they are, I won't be getting one.. Stuff breaks too quickly for me.
donniezazen将近 13 年前
Even when things are serviceable, then are too expensive to get fixed in America. I didn't read full article but I read memory sticks were soldered and memory sticks can easily get faulty. More restrictions from Apple is not surprising.
ericb将近 13 年前
In the era of miniaturization, this strikes me as an inevitability. If computers shrink to dime-size some day, I don't see how you can make those serviceable, so it is only a matter of when the tradeoff happens, not if.
robert_nsu将近 13 年前
As long as other OEMs and other industry leaders don't follow Apple's lead on this, I'm fine.<p>I won't need a retina display in the near future unless Visual Studio or vim suddenly require it.<p>(and I really don't see that happpening -ever)
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sbochins将近 13 年前
This site seems kind of bizarre. The kind of people that buy apple products usually don't know or care about upgrading them or fixing them themselves.
EternalFury将近 13 年前
You don't like it, don't buy it.<p>This being said, we know how Apple manages a 50% profit margin: Lots of people can't help themselves, THEY LOVE IT.<p>So...all discussions can end NOW. :)
gcheong将近 13 年前
In light of this, are people going to be more likely to buy the extended warranty?
Leon将近 13 年前
Yes.
xtractinator将近 13 年前
Nope, you should blame a market that buys computers but doesn't care about computers. What you get is Apple.
dr42将近 13 年前
I can't upgrade the RAM in my Canon 5D, the damn sensor is soldered on, and the damn thing has such tiny screws I can't repair it when it goes wrong. Useless, untenable design, if you ask me. They won't sell many of these...