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Core Python developer suspended for three months

107 点作者 Khaine9 个月前

31 条评论

neilv9 个月前
The first given reason in &quot;<a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;discuss.python.org&#x2F;t&#x2F;three-month-suspension-for-a-core-developer&#x2F;60250" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;discuss.python.org&#x2F;t&#x2F;three-month-suspension-for-a-co...</a>&quot; is discussion on the bylaws change:<p>&gt; <i>Overloading the discussion of the bylaws change (47 out of 177 posts in topic at the time the moderators closed the topic), which created an atmosphere of fear, uncertainty, and doubt, which encouraged increasingly emotional responses from other community members. The later result of the vote showed 81% support for the most controversial of the bylaws changes, which demonstrates the controversy was blown out of proportion.</i><p>I skimmed much of &quot;<a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;discuss.python.org&#x2F;t&#x2F;for-your-consideration-proposed-bylaws-changes-to-improve-our-membership-experience&#x2F;55696&#x2F;20" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;discuss.python.org&#x2F;t&#x2F;for-your-consideration-proposed...</a>&quot;, and all the Tim Peters comments I saw so far reflected pretty well on him.<p>He seemed to be pointing out risks of giving quite that additional power to a board, including the risk of it being abused to neutralize opposition -- only to have the existing power appear to be used to neutralize him.<p>I hope this aspect won&#x27;t be lost in discussion. Knowing online forums of modern Internet, I fully expect some of the keywords in later-listed reasons given for suspending Tim Peters to trigger big upvoted threads, with the effect of burying discussion of the first-listed reason. As, for example, the current top-voted thread on HN as I type this.
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didntcheck9 个月前
&gt; Steering Council member Gregory P Smith: &quot;If a conduct-related enforcement action happens and that &#x27;ruins their career&#x27;, the responsibility for that lies entirely on them. It was their behavior that got them there in the first place.&quot;<p>It&#x27;s concerning just how strong the &quot;just world&quot; fallacy is with so many people, to the point of not being able to comprehend the argument that Good Thing (tm) could ever cause harm<p>&gt; &quot;Defending &#x27;reverse racism&#x27; and &#x27;reverse sexism&#x27;, concepts not backed by empirical evidence, which could be seen as deliberate intimidation or creating an exclusionary environment.&quot;<p>Sorry do they need a scientific paper to confirm that it&#x27;s possible to be racist to a &quot;majority&quot;? And the Kafkaesque idea that it&#x27;s &quot;exclusionary&quot; to oppose it, even as a theoretical thing
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jsnell9 个月前
&gt; I recognize that there are some who think that way. It makes me sad. But that attitude as phrased is entirely backwards. If a conduct related enforcement action happens and that “ruins their career”, the responsibility for that lies entirely on them. It was their behavior that got them there in the first place.<p>That seems obviously incorrect. The outcome is a combination of their behavior, the text of the CoC, and the subjective interpretation of the CoC and the behavior (by the people doing the enforcement). Any of these could be &quot;wrong&quot;.<p>I gather that the person making this comment was one of the people doing the enforcement. Obviously they&#x27;d think that in any specific case, the CoC was reasonable and their reading of it and their interpretation of the behavior was correct. If they didn&#x27;t think that, they would have reached a different outcome.<p>But this isn&#x27;t a statement about a specific case. It&#x27;s a statement about generalities. And it&#x27;s pretty disturbing that the people running the show refuse to acknowledge the possibility of errors even on a theoretical level.
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foobarbaz339 个月前
&gt; mechanism to remove them – if they&#x27;ve been found to have violated the CoC – is seeking a vote from the full Python Community. This is undesirable, because it would &quot;subject members of the community – including people directly impacted by that violator&#x27;s behavior – to undue distress.<p>So... down with voting, up with secret police? Wouldn&#x27;t want to stress the commoners with the power of a vote.
rkharsan649 个月前
I&#x27;ve seen an increasing number of projects with seemingly questionable Codes of Conduct or other similar guidelines. As an example, a few years ago I was interested in trying my hand at contributing to a FOSS project, and found P5.js which matched my interests. However, the contributor docs [1] mentioned:<p>&gt; At the 2019 Contributors Conference, p5.js made the commitment to only add new features that increase access (inclusion and accessibility). We will not accept feature requests that don’t support these efforts.<p>I completely support these efforts, but it turned me off the project. It seems a bit too strict to just refuse any PRs that cannot be considered as increasing access by some measures. I even tried looking for the proceedings of the mentioned conference to get more context, but didn&#x27;t find anything conclusive. It seemed like an arbitrary decision, made outside public oversight.<p>It might be the case that these policies aren&#x27;t enforced seriously, but at that time I decided that I didn&#x27;t want to risk working on something for potentially months that I found cool but couldn&#x27;t present as &quot;increasing access&quot;. So, I just went ahead and played around with OpenGL instead.<p>[1]: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;p5js.org&#x2F;contribute&#x2F;access&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;p5js.org&#x2F;contribute&#x2F;access&#x2F;</a>
eadmund9 个月前
Gregory P. Smith writes: “If a conduct-related enforcement action happens and that ‘ruins their career,’ the responsibility for that lies entirely on them. It was their behavior that got them there in the first place.” That puts <i>far</i> too much faith in the process, assuming that the Python Steering Council (of which he is a member) will never get something wrong.<p>‘Enforcement actions’ (what a bureaucratic way to refer to punishment!) do not just ‘happen’: they are <i>imposed</i> by people. They may be just or unjust; the people may be fair or biased; the process may be due or undue.<p>Mr. Smith should reflect on the fact that his name is indelibly associated with this action, and consider that if others happen to think ill of his actions and remarks in this affair then the responsibility for that lies entirely with him: it is <i>his</i> behaviour he may be judged for.
0x271356149 个月前
python-dev is a repressive organization run by those who put themselves up for election and get 30 out of 90 votes.<p>Inexplicably, the elected &quot;leaders&quot; also have&#x2F;had positions at Google, Microsoft, RedHat and Bloomberg (the Googlers may have been fired this year).<p>The council prosecutes those who contradict the hierarchy and have an own opinion. Tim Peters has contradicted the council on many occasions. The council is unable to summarize even simple mail conversations, disregards historical context, applies the CoC selectively and does not shy away from defamation.<p>The council censors and does not let the accused defend themselves.<p>Tim Peters is the good guy here. Intelligent, non-threatening and easy to deal with. Like in the Soviet Union, these qualities make him a threat to the system.
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mihaic9 个月前
Before Timsort, I knew of Tim some 20 years ago from the ranking and online forum of SPOJ[1], a Polish competitive programming website where he always seemed to top the speed leaderboards with unorthodox usage of Python.<p>He&#x27;s exceptionally talented and original, and that sort of nonsense doesn&#x27;t go well with a bureaucracy.<p>[1] <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;spoj.com" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;spoj.com</a>
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perihelions9 个月前
The leaders seem to have the self-awareness to realize that writing &quot;we are punishing a contributor for disagreeing with us on a forum thread, an act we found personally annoying&quot; would not be ideal. Yet, they don&#x27;t have the awareness to realize saying &quot;actually, we are punishing them for writing too many comments&quot; <i>and directly referencing that exact thread</i> is precisely the same thing.
polotics9 个月前
This makes me a little bit less of a fan of Python, maybe that thing has jumped the shark after all. Time will tell.<p>Looking a bit more into this. I saw <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;discuss.python.org&#x2F;t&#x2F;im-leaving-too&#x2F;58408" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;discuss.python.org&#x2F;t&#x2F;im-leaving-too&#x2F;58408</a><p>And this really makes me sad for Python: the whole thing is so far away from a productive discussions, posts get hidden, etc. Very much a poisoned well.<p>People&#x27;s tempers flare, they have unresolved trauma and whatnot. So talk with them more, not less!
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woodpanel9 个月前
To see a headline were an individual who massiveley donated his private time is suspended from doing so and then wondering before clicking it &quot;is there any chance this doesn&#x27;t have anything to do with some upper class zealot being offended by how normal people speak&quot; – one might say &quot;Bull&#x27;s Eye! What are the chances?&quot;<p>But the only thing I&#x27;m surprised of is that I&#x27;m not surprised anymore.
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arp2429 个月前
<i>&quot;Discussing bans or removals of community members, which may be seen as publishing private information without permission&quot;</i> ... isn&#x27;t that what they&#x27;re doing here? Either ban people &quot;silently&quot; without commentary, giving them the choice whether they want to talk about it, or give 100% transparency and share the full details. Making an announcement about it that has half the (one-sided) details is just the worst possible option.<p>Things like &quot;defending reverse racism&quot; can mean so many things from &quot;oh my God, that&#x27;s super-racist!&quot; to fairly benign awkward choice in language. We have no idea what it is now, but by making the accusation (without details) there will always be the air of suspicion that maybe, perhaps, they&#x27;re secretly super-racist. Or something. This is an issue with a number of items on this list.<p>Not great... Whether the suspension is justified is hard to judge, but it shouldn&#x27;t have made this announcement, and absolutely should not have published this list.<p>I&#x27;ll also add that quite a few of these items seem to be &quot;making assumptions or speculations about other community members’ motivations and&#x2F;or mental health&quot;, which is one of the accusations on the list. Posting &quot;too much&quot; can certainly be disruptive, saying this &quot;creates an atmosphere of fear, uncertainty, and doubt&quot; is just speculating about motivation. This too is an issue with several items on this list.
rty329 个月前
I briefly went through two posts and the comments, and just can&#x27;t figure out this --<p>&gt; &quot;Making light of sensitive topics like workplace sexual harassment, which could be interpreted as harassment or creating an unwelcoming environment.&quot; &gt; &quot;Casually mentioning scenarios involving sexual abuse, which may be inappropriate or triggering for some audiences.&quot;<p>In which scenario would these topics even come up when people discuss Python? I can&#x27;t imagine anyone talking about these things in a professional workplace outside exceptional situations. This just seems very weird to me.
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lifthrasiir9 个月前
This article gives much better context than the previous discussion (which devolved into an usual disagreement over CoC process), but the discussion itself didn&#x27;t improve much. It turns out that there were several actual reports about the person in question and even quantative observations [1], regardless of one&#x27;s actual intents, and that should be enough to alarm anyone (but please let me know if this is rather just a regular phenomenon). This &quot;suspension&quot; should really be read as: please, please chill down, because you may well have been just overheated enough to harm without realizing.<p>[1] <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;discuss.python.org&#x2F;t&#x2F;python-s-supportive-and-welcoming-environment-is-tightly-coupled-to-its-progress&#x2F;59232&#x2F;1" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;discuss.python.org&#x2F;t&#x2F;python-s-supportive-and-welcomi...</a>
major5059 个月前
Truth is, this days if a project have a code of conduct larger than 1 page, you should probably not invest your time helping it.
pansa29 个月前
See also: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=41187470">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=41187470</a>
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raptor999 个月前
This seems quite relevant to this situation: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;unherd.com&#x2F;2020&#x2F;01&#x2F;cast-out-how-knitting-fell-into-a-purity-spiral&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;unherd.com&#x2F;2020&#x2F;01&#x2F;cast-out-how-knitting-fell-into-a...</a>
roenxi9 个月前
Small community scandals are a part of small communities and good luck to whoever is involved. However, the dot point list in this article manages to add a few levels of entertainment.<p>&gt; Using potentially offensive language or slurs, in one case even calling an SNL [Saturday Night Live] skit from the 1970s using the same slur &#x27;genuinely funny&#x27;, which shows a lack of empathy towards other community members.<p>This is wonderful on a couple of levels. Both because someone seems to be saying finding SNL funny can be a CoC offence and also because I can&#x27;t figure out what the word is. Too offensive for adults I suppose.
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serial_dev9 个月前
I hate that they publish 10 points without link to the original offences.<p>I&#x27;m sorry, I won&#x27;t trust any of these committees &#x2F; foundations &#x2F; council without direct evidence, you can&#x27;t just make up these charges and remove all the context...<p>I mean <i>you can</i>, but based on my experience, I&#x27;ll just assume the council is full of do-nothing political activists who infiltrated a developer project and found a way to be petty and feel all important and mighty.<p>First point, he started a discussion in a discussion? What else, he commented on a RFC?
greenavocado9 个月前
LMAO. Allowing the public to vote IS UNDESIRABLE because it MIGHT cause &quot;undue distress.&quot; The Python Foundation is subverted.<p>&gt; The issue is that Python Fellows are awarded membership for life and the only mechanism to remove them – if they&#x27;ve been found to have violated the CoC – is seeking a vote from the full Python Community. This is undesirable, because it would &quot;subject members of the community – including people directly impacted by that violator&#x27;s behavior – to undue distress.&quot;
blueflow9 个月前
This is pretty low stab and i agree that it is no better than a personal attack, but... the person enforcing the CoC has pronouns in their bio while the person who got banned doesn&#x27;t. Again.
jddj9 个月前
It seems like there is a corollary to the paradox of tolerance which causes groups to become so preoccupied with inclusiveness that they become exclusive
ozzcer9 个月前
Getting the vibe that both parties are probably at fault here. Sounds like python community can be a bit overzealous in it&#x27;s enforcement of generally good rules, and potentially might be politically motivated to silence someone who wants to affect change. But also that Thomas Wouters is failing to understand context and time and place, with his other infractions (like overt endorsement of slurs) making him an easy target for censoring. Like if you want a community to be more welcoming to your point of view you don&#x27;t do it by upsetting others in it. Also as someone diagnosed with ADHD, burn Babylon.
aayala9 个月前
You can express yourself as long it aligns with us ...
TZubiri9 个月前
Is this a volunteer or a paid position?
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nemo44x9 个月前
Typical modern codes of conduct (broad, arbitrary, politically motivated) seem to me to exist solely as a case of pluralistic ignorance. Besides a few true believers - usually those that gain a sociopathic leverage through them - most everyone else only goes along with them because they think everyone else does. A collective illusion forced by social pressure - nearly no one believes in it but assumes the others do so it exists.<p>You can’t CoC unsavory opinions out of existence. You need to confront them by putting beliefs against each other. Otherwise it’s just another inquisition.
giraffe_lady9 个月前
I suspect the expectation is that we consider this an abhorrent violation of free speech or something and get worked up over it? But it seems to be a well-defined governance mechanism applied reasonably and as intended. The user has a pattern of disruptive behavior across many posts over a long stretch of time, many of them clear violations of CoC and received a 3-month suspension for it. It isn&#x27;t a witch hunt, or an egregious punishment. I don&#x27;t see the crisis frankly.
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td5409 个月前
cool, when does the movie come out?
trallnag9 个月前
Is that the woke mind virus in action Elon Musk has been talking about on his personal blog?
ZeroGravitas9 个月前
Variation on Lewis&#x27;s Law:<p>Any discussion of a Code of Conduct supports the need for a Code of Conduct.<p>(Original is &quot;the comments on any article about feminism justify feminism&quot;).
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languagehacker9 个月前
We say that open source is &quot;coding in public&quot;, but we often omit that it&#x27;s also being a professional in public. Even if they were well intentioned, it doesn&#x27;t sound like Tim&#x27;s actions were too professional. That kind of behavior can be damaging for a professional community in a lot of ways. Outside of giving the impression that the community is not welcoming to individuals of all backgrounds, it can expose actual legal entities to actual risk.<p>This doesn&#x27;t seem like a one-time mistake, but rather a pattern of behavior that was measured and then acted upon -- likely after a series of warnings that took place behind closed doors.<p>The suspension is really too bad for everyone involved in the Python community, but I hope it can be a lesson for folks who have a hard time separating how they present themselves personally vs. professionally. Let&#x27;s also hope that this doesn&#x27;t result in the collateral damage we saw after the whole Donglegate fiasco. I&#x27;d like to think after ten years of stuff like this we&#x27;ve gotten a little bit better.
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