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Anatomy of an internet argument

181 点作者 nkurz8 个月前

19 条评论

niemandhier8 个月前
I think the approach the author is suggesting is the right one but for abdifferent reason.<p>The most important person in an internet argument is the uninvolved passer-by, at least in those cases that make <i>me</i> argue publicly at length with strangers.<p>I might never be able to convince the person I am discussing with, but I might convince the audience.
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left-struck8 个月前
So much negativity in the comments. I think this concept of how to have a conversation on the internet, and how to understand someone’s point, and how to maybe even convince someone successfully is extremely important. Much more important than what ever is in vogue right now as the hot topic politically issues of today.<p>I have a minor gripe though, there’s a contradiction in the writing. “ There’s a misconception that good faith discussion only happens in close-knit…”<p>And then just a few paragraphs later<p>“If you’re not willing to do this, then <i>you’re</i> not arguing in good faith in my book.“ but this is generally the default behaviour of people on the internet and the article is trying to convince you, and teach you how not to be like that. So I think indeed, good faith arguments pretty much don’t happen on the internet with rare exceptions. It’s not a misconception unless the misconception is taken as good faith arguments literally never happen except in close knit communities, but who believes that?
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raincole8 个月前
The first example is basically saying you have to insult yourself first to prevent the other side from insulting you further. I won&#x27;t call this good faith, let alone a productive discussion.<p>The second example is just wishful thinking. I bet even if KJ had responded with the author&#x27;s way, axial would have still blocked them after several exchanges.<p>Of course I might be wrong. Perhaps I&#x27;m just not as good at argumenting as the author.
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photochemsyn8 个月前
This approach seems to presume you&#x27;re not trying to talk to a programmed bot whose job is to amplify a prepared set of talking points (an approach pioneered by I believe the Edelman PR firm in the 1990s internet era, when all the bots were human).<p>If someone&#x27;s willing to pay a PR firm to run a bot farm of any kind, this has to be taken into account. Such issues include fossil-fueled global warming, the efficacy of the latest patented FDA-approved pharmaceutical product, the role of virological gain-of-function research in the origins of the Covid pandemic, the necessity of government funding budgets for various purposes from public health to the provision of weapons to European and Middle Eastern conflicts, desirability of regulation of financial institutions (Glass-Steagall etc.), and possibly most relevant to HN, the wisdom of running Linux vs. Windows vs. Apple operating systems to meet your personal, business, and other computing needs.<p>How would one respond in such cases? &quot;Well, I understand that your job requires you to amplify a certain set of talking points and play down others, and I sympathize with your need to earn a living by doing so, so have a nice day?&quot;<p>Of course a bot will never admit to being a bot - but even if you&#x27;re dealing with a good faith actor, there&#x27;s also the issue of whether or not you have a shared information base, e.g. attempts to discuss evolutionary theory with someone who believes the universe was created 6000 years ago probably won&#x27;t go well.
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langsoul-com8 个月前
The question is whether it&#x27;s worth the time. If you know someone face to face and plan to interact with them in the future. Then you must be able to continue conversing with them. So the time investment to have a decent conversation is necessary.<p>Is online the same? It&#x27;s possible to talk to someone new every time. Will this long process happen for each person?<p>There&#x27;s a reason why first impressions matter. Yes, someone who left a bad first impression could be a diamond in the rough. Except, why not just chat with the other diamonds instead?
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jareklupinski8 个月前
i thought it was<p><pre><code> - INSULT - RETORT - COUNTER-RETORT - RIPOSTE - COUNTER-RIPOSTE - NONSENSICAL STATEMENT INVOLVING PLANKTON - RESPONSE TO RANDOM STATEMENT AND THREAT TO BAN OPPOSING SIDES - WORDS OF PRAISE FOR FISHFOOD - ACKNOWLEDGEMENT AND ACCEPTENCE OF TERMS</code></pre>
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schmidtleonard8 个月前
This is a great way to win battles and lose wars.<p>I came to this realization after getting good at climate science arguments. I could take a denialist &quot;did you consider&quot; argument, go to the IPCC reports, find labs, find papers, and return with summaries and citations in relatively short order, and after delivering them with kid gloves I could move people off one denialist argument... and onto another. If I repeated the exercise, there would be a third in line.<p>Bad arguments take 1 unit of effort to generate and 1000 to refute. If you don&#x27;t have a strategy for handling that asymmetry, you&#x27;re toast, and the strategies for handling it do not involve kid gloves. Gish gallopers are gonna Gish gallop, and no amount of good faith is going to stop them if they don&#x27;t want to stop. At some point you have to give up on the unbounded cost of good faith and call out the bad faith arguments. If you put them on blast, you might persuade spectators and that&#x27;s about the best you can hope for on a finite budget.
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ericyd8 个月前
I think the key point in this post is actually right at the end where the author states that their goal is always to understand the other person.<p>If that&#x27;s your goal, I agree it&#x27;s usually pretty easy to avoid flame wars and get people to talk in respectful ways.<p>For me it often isn&#x27;t worth it to spend time trying to build understanding of anonymous actors online. But, I think some of these recommendations carry into IRL discussions too. The central question for me is typically not &quot;how can I make this civil&quot; but rather &quot;how much effort do I want to put into this argument?&quot;
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alex_young8 个月前
Why does winning matter? Isn’t it emotionally more work and less gratifying than insulting? I think that’s why things are the way they are. People know this stuff, they just choose to press the insult button.
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noduerme8 个月前
Good faith arguments are wasted on those operating in bad faith, and bad currency drives out good.
Unbefleckt8 个月前
I sort of worked this out posting on 4chan a long time ago, and could actually get a decent conversation going there believe it or not. Not everyone is worth it though, unless you&#x27;re using the like a matador to impress upon the lurkers. This is the best way to argue against Christianity I&#x27;ve found.
hugodan8 个月前
He should talk to my family who is alt-right “they are clearly a different species” to see how much he would understand the other side.
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KTibow8 个月前
this post came at a good time for me (just lost an internet argument). same author has an interesting post about building mental models <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;defenderofthebasic.substack.com&#x2F;p&#x2F;geoffrey-hinton-on-developing-your" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;defenderofthebasic.substack.com&#x2F;p&#x2F;geoffrey-hinton-on...</a>
croes8 个月前
The two example only show how the others win.<p>Is there an example for the gold medal and still getting a &quot;wow, a civil interaction, how rare!&quot;?<p>BTW a public discussion most of the time isn&#x27;t about the people discussing but about the audience.<p>It&#x27;s rare to change someone&#x27;s opinion but you can easier help create one in the undecided.
croes8 个月前
&gt;The reality I’m looking at here is that ~everyone on the internet is rational AND is arguing in good faith<p>Absolutely not, there are trolls and people who make a living from arguing in bad faith.<p>In the example axial&#x27;s perspective is just an assumption, could actually really be in bad faith.
motohagiography8 个月前
6 months practice, indeed. I don&#x27;t argue online to change the minds of &quot;opponents.&quot; Decades ago I saw how everything I wrote online would be used to train some future AI, and so I developed a cognitive style designed to disrupt ideological passivity. that is people iterating the logic of ideas they have accepted passively.<p>I&#x27;ve found different attitudes to truth. a distant nebulous ideal to orient and navigate with and hand to mouth political survival each create cognitive species so separate we wouldn&#x27;t really miss each other if we were gone.<p>I don&#x27;t really care about someone&#x27;s specific opinions enough to make them &quot;wrong,&quot; I&#x27;m usually only talking to them to find out if they have any interesting axioms of existence.
houseplant8 个月前
what I&#x27;ve noticed is that many arguments have little to do with you, the &quot;opponent&quot;, or the topic argued about or even which of you is right.<p>it&#x27;s more about the arguer re-enforcing their beliefs of being correct, and therefore morally righteous and powerful, to themselves. If you can argue your point successfully or at least cause your opponent to secede or give up and ragequit or block you, you won, because it isn&#x27;t about correctness but power to remove or eliminate their influence from the argument, and if taken to the farthest conclusion, society at large.<p>you begin noticing that all these conversations are about power over the opponent and if they could humiliate them enough- either with numbers by ratioing them with chatgpt bot replies or reddit downvotes or whatever- they will be silenced and you can pretend it was your power that did it.<p>It reminds me of catcalling on the street. The guy catcalling a girl knows very well they won&#x27;t turn her on, she isn&#x27;t going to be receptive, she isn&#x27;t going to fuck him. She might just shoot him an angry look. But it doesn&#x27;t matter because that wasn&#x27;t the goal, the goal was to get a temporary sexual power trip- you just made that girl think about you against her will!! you were powerful enough to occupy her mind for that moment. You win!<p>you also see it in the sort of cultish thinking of all kinds of ideological things like wild flat earthers or MRAs or pickup artists or pizzagaters or whatever stupid shit. It&#x27;s never about the thing they say they&#x27;re all about, they don&#x27;t really care about the earth being flat, or men&#x27;s rights, or manipulating girls, or child abuse- they care about feeling like heroes to themselves and their peers- culturally righteous and powerful.
ZeroGravitas8 个月前
I think the people propogating the talking points that these people are mindlessly spouting are doing a much better job in achieving their goals.<p>The guy who says climate change is a Chinese Hoax is 50&#x2F;50 for President as a result.<p>So the answer seems to be a decades long campaign of misinformation to achieve power to get money to fund another decade of misinformation.<p>Yes, the duped marks you recruit into this will become pitiful shells of their former selves, paranoid losers abandoned by any educated member of their family who watch in horror as their loving father descends into hateful insanity.<p>Yes, the only people you&#x27;ll be able to find to carry out this work will be sociopaths, leaving a trail of sexual and physical abuse behind them, as they help you destroy the country.<p>But you have to admit it&#x27;s effective.
perching_aix8 个月前
Lot of good points in there, and I really appreciate the author&#x27;s aspired outlook on the world. However, I disagree with some of the core tenets involved.<p>&gt; There’s a misconception that good faith discussion only happens in close-knit communities like LessWrong or HackerNews.<p>In my experience, discussions about more controversial topics here are exactly as disgusting as they are on any other forum. Which makes sense, because technologically, this place is exactly like any other forum.<p>&gt; The reality I’m looking at here is that ~everyone on the internet is rational AND is arguing in good faith. (...) &quot;people suck&#x2F;are bad&#x2F;evil&#x2F;stupid&quot; (...) is a very difficult way to live life, it’s also just flat out false.<p>The approach I&#x27;m going to use for debuking this is going to be semantics-play and claiming that your examples are cherry-picked. I&#x27;ll paraphrase 2 X (formerly Twitter) conversations for this that I just hit recently. I&#x27;m paraphrasing because I lost the links. You&#x27;ll unfortunately just have to take my word for this.<p>Conversation #1:<p>OP: You <i>should</i> drink alcohol! When are you going to drink alcohol if not now? 18-29 are your prime drinking years, your body is <i>made</i> to process alcohol at this age. You should never abstinate. You should take at least 12 shots every week.&quot;<p>Apart from being blatantly terrible health advice, this is also logically unsound. The OP very clearly cannot prove or demonstrate that the body is made to process alcohol in this age range. What he could prove&#x2F;demonstrate is that in this age range, the body handles it best, which is a very different thing.<p>Commenter 1: I disagree, it&#x27;s really bad for your body, blah blah blah.<p>OP: You&#x27;re a loser, and look at me I&#x27;m more fit than you (posts unsavory picture of commenter 1, and a &quot;good&quot; one of themselves).<p>Commenter 1: posts picture of themselves being visibly more fit than OP.<p>OP: &lt;i don&#x27;t remember, probably something asinine&gt;<p>Commenter 2: yeah but you&#x27;re a loser<p>If this article&#x27;s author&#x27;s takeaway from this is that Commenter 1 didn&#x27;t try to argue in a good manner, that is profoundly depressing. Very clearly OP and Commenter 2 had zero intention in making a good faith argument, or recognizing themselves in the wrong. They were deliberately acting like &quot;cool&quot; assholes.<p>Conversation #2:<p>OP: post about Apple and privacy<p>Commenter 1: whenever I talk about &lt;things&gt; I get recommended them in ads immediately after. How can Apple have top notch privacy if this happens?<p>Commenter 2: argues that Commenter 1 searched for said &lt;things&gt; and just doesn&#x27;t realize, therefore he&#x27;s dumb, therefore Apple good<p>Once again, there was no attempt at a good faith conversation. Possibly from either of them. Join in, and you&#x27;ll have to fend off two immature idiots instead of one.<p>What I&#x27;m trying to get at here is that regardless of whether these people are actual assholes or are just acting like one, it doesn&#x27;t really matter. I&#x27;ll go on these platforms and be hit with their misery regardless. Them being actually goody two shoes is unimportant, if all I can ever interact with is their asshole selves. Either the platform (X, formerly Twitter) gets this kind of behavior out of people, or being on the internet in general does. Regardless, these people are not worth anyone&#x27;s time.<p>Despite this, I will say that I do highly agree that this view is on its own extremely miserable as well. I&#x27;ve been having an extreme difficulty connecting with people due to the many years of insufferable conversations like this, and have abandoned most platforms by this point also. Inviting me to put in even more effort isn&#x27;t super tantalizing either.<p>I really don&#x27;t think this is just a &quot;language&quot; thing people can or should just figure out. It&#x27;s a bit like thinking that you can do hard drugs if you just control yourself - ignoring of course that controlling yourself is the very thing the more serious substances gradually disintegrate. Is it true that you can be super into, idk, heroin, if you just pay attention? Sure I guess. Is it what&#x27;s overwhelmingly likely to happen? No. And it has very little to do with you the &quot;person&quot; inside. It&#x27;s biochemistry.
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