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Why the ISO format has to die

95 点作者 auraham7 个月前

25 条评论

nullindividual7 个月前
The author could use a bit of humility.<p>ISO isn’t useful in the author’s use-case. That’s fine, it is their project to do as they will. ISOs may still have uses elsewhere, such as PXE boot or just a near universally mountable read only container.<p>The author’s point to the age of the original ISO standard is irrelevant. Many old technologies are reliable and widely adopted, which in and of itself may make it superior to more modern technologies.<p>Author’s project, author’s will. But that was difficult to read due to their attitude and beyond the author’s use case, didn’t provide a reason for universally retiring ISO.
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PreInternet017 个月前
What a strange article. What&#x27;s called an &#x27;ISO&#x27; is, these days, pretty much a thin wrapper for an UDF file system -- you can definitely use it differently as well, but I&#x27;m <i>pretty sure</i> nobody has created, say, an ISO9660 plus Joliet plus El Torito image in the past decade or so.<p>And, no, UDF isn&#x27;t <i>great</i> either, but I wouldn&#x27;t say it &quot;has to die&quot;: it&#x27;s a pretty convenient distribution format due to being widely supported, as it&#x27;s really simple to implement.<p>So, this mostly seems to be a rant against live-CD-style Linux distros, since those are hard on maintainers (plus: toxic community multiplier)? On the one hand that might be true, on the other hand, the &#x27;hey, here is how you get an ext4 or whatever filesystem in RAM&#x27; tooling around that is so mature and convenient that it&#x27;s hard to see <i>why</i>, and I can&#x27;t distill any real arguments from this...
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snickerbockers7 个月前
Whatever dude, I actually do still use CDs but it&#x27;s not like I care about your distro anyways so go ahead.<p>ISO-9660 is good at the thing it was designed for, which is a read-only media. If it was made for USB sticks it would have indirect-blocks so that files could be trivially expanded.<p>It&#x27;s not clear what the author thinks it the &quot;death&quot; of ISO-9660 would entail. It&#x27;s not like it&#x27;s the subject of constant development or is mandatory for anything other than optical discs. Perhaps he thinks he can influence a sudden and widespread removal of ISO-9660 modules from OSes, FUSE, and archive utilities?<p>Also not sure what&#x27;s so difficult about it, I thought for the USB-stick case all you do is dd it onto the dev-node and you&#x27;re good to go? IDK, maybe I&#x27;m wrong here, like I said I prefer using CD-R discs on the very rare occasions that I need to install a new linux distro because the alternative is backing up my entire USB stick so I can overwrite it with a new FS and then restore it from backup. And also I always have stacks and stacks of CD-Rs on hand because they&#x27;re cheap as fuck and I need them for an old video game console which is the subject of my primary hobby.
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o11c7 个月前
I think the author is confusing &quot;ISO format&quot; with &quot;read-only install media&quot;.<p>The posts make a lot more sense once I make that substitution. There are other errors too (for example, there&#x27;s nothing stopping you from adding additional partitions in the hybrid case).<p>But I&#x27;m pretty sure there are quite a few &quot;partition&#x2F;filesystem&#x2F;distro UUID&#x2F;key&#x2F;whatever&quot; things that need to be wiped if you boot from an image directly, and this needs to be considered very carefully. Installing an OS twice should NOT be byte-for-byte identical, and if it is that&#x27;s a security&#x2F;reliability problem.
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Aardwolf7 个月前
&quot;ISO format&quot; could mean a lot of things, I&#x27;m happy this is not about the date format (ISO 8601)
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jackjeff7 个月前
There are many ways in which ISO files are useful. You have native support in Linux and Windows (you can mount). You usually also have support in virtualization or emulation software like VMWare Parallels, VirtualBox, HyperV…<p>So I get it Etcher for someone who wants to do it on a USB stick is probably as easy if not easier than using cat or dd. I reckon I can probably create the ISO file with Etcher too. But I’ve installed countless distros and never had to download Etcher since I could always point the virtual CD to an ISO file.<p>Bonus point. I don’t need to learn anything about file systems and partitions and block sizes… it just works. I have no idea how these bootable medias work since I never had to make one.
johnea7 个月前
According to:<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.iso-accelerator.co.uk&#x2F;news&#x2F;post&#x2F;how-many-iso-standards-are-there" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.iso-accelerator.co.uk&#x2F;news&#x2F;post&#x2F;how-many-iso-sta...</a><p>&quot;The ISO Standards Catalogue comprises more than 25 thousand standards&quot;<p>Maybe the author could start out by specifying which ISO standard they&#x27;re refering to?
kstrauser7 个月前
Damn straight. One time I wanted to use an ISO with a USB stick and it turned into such a giant pain in the ass that I wrote up all the instructions. I still get a ridiculous amount of traffic on this blog page: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;honeypot.net&#x2F;2011&#x2F;10&#x2F;11&#x2F;making-dos-usb.html" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;honeypot.net&#x2F;2011&#x2F;10&#x2F;11&#x2F;making-dos-usb.html</a><p>That was one specific ISO in one specific use case. There’s probably a GUI that does all this automatically now. That one time, though, I would’ve sold a kidney for a dd-able image.
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AStonesThrow7 个月前
I would say that&#x27;s fine for Easy to drop their ISO9660 distribution format. The rationale makes good sense.<p>And of course I&#x27;m going to fit in the mold of an entrenched, elderly, &quot;old timer&quot;, digging in his heels and I&#x27;ll re-state a fossilized opinion:<p>In general, the ISO9660 format is great for distributing disk images for this reason: it&#x27;s a mature, international, cross-platform standard.<p>This is not important for a Linux distro that can be set up with ext3&#x2F;4. But if you distribute something with wide compatibility, you&#x27;ll still consider making it ISO9660, because a Mac user can roll with it,* and a Linux user will have no problem, nor will a Windows user run into difficulty mounting and reading it.<p>Likewise, if you wish to generate this filesystem image, any of the above systems, and more, will have an app to create a standards-compliant ISO9660 image. In fact, most of the apps will help with staging all your data and assembling it into a nice package, that you&#x27;d otherwise want to make something like a build script to go from a bundle of files and data to a finished ext4 image.<p>But for Easy, and any other Linux distro, we&#x27;ve long ago phased out actual optical discs (my elderly fossilized brain recalls Knoppix as a revolutionary &quot;live CD only&quot; distro) so swapping in ext4 images may liberate some devs and support techs.<p>*I don&#x27;t know actually--do Macs have built-in tools for ISO mounting? They had their own sort of &quot;.dmg&quot; file for &quot;mount as a disk, install this software package&quot;, last I checked. And one popular extension is &quot;.img&quot;, so Linux distros--stop confusing Mac users!
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dataflow7 个月前
Isn&#x27;t the .iso &quot;format&quot; just a byte-by-byte dump of a disc? Just like how a .img is a byte-by-byte dump of... whatever drive? What does it mean that that one of these &quot;formats&quot; to &quot;die&quot;? How do you kill a &quot;format&quot; that&#x27;s just a straight copy of something?
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josephcsible7 个月前
See <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=40733040">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=40733040</a> for previous discussion on this decision. tl;dr: it&#x27;s not hard to support hybrid ISOs, and there are still a lot of legitimate reasons to want an ISO.
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thesnide7 个月前
No, the format has not to die. Just some of its usages.
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DarkmSparks7 个月前
Theres probably a fairly good back story here around how all the encryption garbage basically killed blueray - it won the battle, lost the war.<p>I have a blueray writer, but 50GB isnt really enough to backup files, 25GB definately isnt. The disks are a nightmare to get hold of, and unlike USB sticks, nothing can play the media on them, and the players that theoretically could intentionally do not by design.
lmm7 个月前
What a useless page. Maybe put less effort into insults and put the actual explanation front-and-centre rather than burying it in a linked page.
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zild3d7 个月前
Was expecting gripes about ISO 8601 format
gjvc7 个月前
What&#x27;s his actual objection though?
riiii7 个月前
This is just a rant.
mcv7 个月前
&gt; Barry will continue the rest of this page writing in the first-person.<p>Please do. Because this is weird.<p>I have absolutely no stick in this fight. I have always found it a bit weird to use iso images on usb sticks, so I&#x27;m with him there. But clicking through to his article about why iso needs to die, where he goes into the practical advantage of the img format, which is that you can have a writeable partition and still use the entire usb and not just the boot image, it&#x27;s immediately obvious why you might not want that.<p>I mean, having a bootable usb that you can also write to is fantastic if you want to have a portable installation with everything you like that you can take with you anywhere. But if you just want a read-only medium from which to install something to dozens of machines, you don&#x27;t want anyone writing to it.<p>So I think these are simply two different use cases.
zoezoezoezoe7 个月前
isnt the ISO &quot;format&quot; just a disk image, same for .img, when you run `dd if=file(.iso|.img) of=&#x2F;dev&#x2F;sda` you&#x27;re just copying the bytes from one file to the other, so what really defines the .img or .iso &quot;formats&quot; other than the file extensions?
Jenk7 个月前
I came in here thinking I was about to witness some slander against the ISO8601 date time format.
juangacovas7 个月前
I don&#x27;t think that tools like ReaR (Relax and Recover) would agree with retiring ISOs..
exac7 个月前
The installation guide has about 27,000 words. Doesn&#x27;t sound too easy to me.
fragmede7 个月前
(9660)
a3w7 个月前
*ISO disk image format I was thinking about film.
WesolyKubeczek7 个月前
I thought first it was about ISO8601, but it’s about ISO9660.<p>People, mention the numbers please.