TE
科技回声
首页24小时热榜最新最佳问答展示工作
GitHubTwitter
首页

科技回声

基于 Next.js 构建的科技新闻平台,提供全球科技新闻和讨论内容。

GitHubTwitter

首页

首页最新最佳问答展示工作

资源链接

HackerNews API原版 HackerNewsNext.js

© 2025 科技回声. 版权所有。

What is it like to be a thermostat? (1996)

72 点作者 optimalsolver5 个月前

20 条评论

smokel5 个月前
I find Thomas Nagel&#x27;s &quot;what it is like to be&quot; [1] concept fascinating. I have spent quite some time trying to imagine what it is like to be a <i>rock</i>. Mind you, not from the perspective of a human (&quot;A rock will probably experience time very quickly, because it erodes, etc. etc&quot;), but from the perspective of the rock itself. That is, it has no senses, no memory, no capabilities for abstraction, no consciousness.<p>This ruminating has led me to believe that time and logic are human concepts, and are not as universal as is commonly believed. With recent insights into neural networks, I wouldn&#x27;t even be surprised if the laws of physics follow from the way our brains are wired, instead of the other way around. Perhaps this is simply a modern take on idealism or realism, but I can&#x27;t find a strand of philosophy with which I feel at home.<p>Obviously, there is a bootstrapping problem with trying to reason from something that cannot reason. And I am well aware that my brain must exist in some form of reality. To conclusively prove some apparatus for that is way out of the scope of science. Scientifically there is probably very little to learn from this anyway, apart from opening one&#x27;s mind to some alternative possibilities. It&#x27;s a fun exercise, though.<p>However, the entire discussion about what <i>consciousness</i> is, strikes me as less interesting. Is this really more than being able to conjure up memories of past experiences?<p>[1] <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;What_Is_It_Like_to_Be_a_Bat%3F" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;What_Is_It_Like_to_Be_a_Bat%3F</a>
评论 #42549436 未加载
评论 #42550181 未加载
评论 #42550109 未加载
评论 #42549461 未加载
评论 #42553819 未加载
评论 #42576964 未加载
评论 #42550068 未加载
HarHarVeryFunny5 个月前
It&#x27;s a dumb click-bait title (riffing on Nagel&#x27;s &quot;What is it like to be a bat?&quot;), but the actual question presented a bit further down is:<p>&quot;Moving down the scale through lizards and fish to slugs, similar considerations apply. There does not seem to be much reason to suppose that phenomenology should wink out while a reasonably complex perceptual psychology persists… As we move along the scale from fish and slugs through simple neural networks all the way to thermostats, where should consciousness wink out?&quot;<p>The author seems to have succeeded in answering her own question (at least in hand-wavy fashion) at the same time as posing it, as well as implicitly defining consciousness. So, yeah, it&#x27;s not like anything to be a thermostat.
评论 #42551269 未加载
评论 #42550261 未加载
HPsquared5 个月前
Title reminds me of Tim Hunkin&#x27;s BBC series &quot;The Secret Life of Machines&quot;, which he&#x27;s put on YouTube. There is, funnily enough, an episode on central heating systems:<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.youtube.com&#x2F;watch?v=PnQ9zkBzbYc" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.youtube.com&#x2F;watch?v=PnQ9zkBzbYc</a><p>EDIT: there is of course a bit about thermostats: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.youtube.com&#x2F;watch?v=PnQ9zkBzbYc&amp;t=1137" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.youtube.com&#x2F;watch?v=PnQ9zkBzbYc&amp;t=1137</a>
GiorgioG5 个月前
Being a thermostat is fucking exhausting. My wife and I are the equivalent of a thermostat for our type 1 diabetic son&#x27;s blood sugar. It&#x27;s in our face 24&#x2F;7.
评论 #42549735 未加载
评论 #42549477 未加载
评论 #42549385 未加载
评论 #42549939 未加载
upghost5 个月前
Does anyone know of a smart thermostat that actually has this function? Every thermostat I&#x27;ve looked for has &quot;heat mode&quot; where it decides if it should be blasting heat or not, and &quot;cool mode&quot;, where it decides it should be blasting the AC or not. I have not found the mythical smart thermostat that does the job of &quot;keep the temperature around here&quot; +&#x2F;- a few degrees.<p>I live in an area where its cold at night and hot during the day and I am bad at remembering to change the thermostat from mode to mode and haven&#x27;t found a programmable IOT thermostat I can write a script for, recommendations welcome!
评论 #42565794 未加载
评论 #42556056 未加载
评论 #42549563 未加载
评论 #42550013 未加载
isoprophlex5 个月前
Another useful metaphor that doesn&#x27;t cross the threshold from human experience into the &quot;experiencing&quot; that non-living things do, would be chemotaxis.<p>A bacterium finds food with a simple set of states. At it&#x27;s most basic:<p>- you are experiencing an increasing concentration of food. you keep swimming straight ahead.<p>- you are experiencing a decreasing concentration of food. you move in a continuously randomized direction.<p>this eventually gets them onto a track where they are moving towards food.<p>Extremely simple like a thermostat, yet effective.<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.m.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Chemotaxis" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.m.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Chemotaxis</a>
评论 #42550139 未加载
mannykannot5 个月前
I feel that there is an alternative way of approaching the question: to propose that it is only meaningful to ask what it is like to be an X if the X has certain mental abilities, such as some sort of self-awareness of itself as a participant in a wider world. How would we go about evaluating and choosing between these two views, and is there room for there being degrees of &#x27;what it is like&#x27; and self-awareness? It is almost as if we are trying to write the dictionary definition before we know enough to complete the job (which is not necessarily a bad thing, unless we assume that by making a choice, we have, ipso facto, filled in the previously-incomplete knowledge.)<p>I definitely take issue with Chalmers&#x27; opening sentence of his final paragraph: &quot;… A final consideration in favor of simple systems having experience: if experience is truly a fundamental property, it seems natural for it to be widespread.&quot; I feel he is putting the cart before the horse here - something that seems quite common in the philosophy of mind - by first deciding that experience is a fundamental property, and then using it to justify the assumption that it is widespread. This strikes me as almost circular, as it seems one could at least as reasonably justify it being fundamental on account of the arguments for it being ubiquitous.
评论 #42550235 未加载
mensetmanusman5 个月前
If you believe a thermostat has consciousness, you would also logically believe that the cascading subset of (your body - n*atoms) would also be conscious. E.g. your arm.<p>This is one reason the topic is so slippery.
评论 #42561307 未加载
crabbone5 个月前
I think that we find the idea of thermostat having experiences strange because, subconsciously, we think of experiences only being accessible to someone &#x2F; something that has a &quot;will to live&quot; (in the words of Schopenhauer).<p>I.e. I don&#x27;t think thermostats want anything. They don&#x27;t have a capacity to care whether they fall apart or not, whether anyone is satisfied with their function or not. But, life, even in the very simplest form wants something. Experiences to living organisms is what makes them more effective at doing what they want.<p>What makes living creatures want something: I have no idea. I remember hearing a hypothesis tying this to better preservation of energy... but I don&#x27;t know about that. But, if I had to guess, it must be something that&#x27;s available to micro-organisms, so, it has to have some physical &#x2F; chemical explanation...
评论 #42549930 未加载
评论 #42550492 未加载
neogodless5 个月前
Their use of &quot;phenomenal&quot; and &quot;phenomenology&quot; confuses me as a layman, but I&#x27;ll lay out their (likely relevant) definitions and hope to use that to better understand what is being proposed.<p>&gt; phenomenal: Known or derived through the senses rather than through the mind.<p>&gt; phenomenology: A philosophy or method of inquiry based on the premise that reality consists of objects and events as they are perceived or understood in human consciousness and not of anything independent of human consciousness.<p>So the claim (highlighted especially in paragraph 3) is that, outside of humans, things that are <i>perceived</i> may also exist in <i>conscious</i> thought (of non-humans).
mode805 个月前
I remember inspecting the thermostat in my parent’s house as a child. It was a coil of something metalic which I assume expands and contracts with temperature and physically pushes electrical contacts together to turn on the heat when needed. Knowing how it works, it’s hard for me to imagine that this feels like anything. The whole contraption is just an arrangement of molecules doing what molecules do. But then again, so am I.
robwwilliams5 个月前
Chalmers is a dualist living in a Cartesian past. If you like a lively treatment of dead scholasticism of the mind-vs-brain problem then you can do no better. Ditto Nagel.<p>In contrast if you want modern post-cartesian scientific thought on consciousness then hit Dennett hard for philosophy or Ray W. Guillery if you want hard neuroscience (The Brain as a Tool).
ryandvm5 个月前
&quot;What is it like to be a bat (or a thermostat)?&quot; is too abstract for anyone to thoughtfully grasp.<p>Instead try asking yourself &quot;what is it like to be asleep?&quot; or &quot;what is it like to be waking up?&quot; or &quot;what is it like to be heavily sedated?&quot;<p>We all experience various gradients of consciousness every day as we do things like drift off to sleep or slowly gain consciousness in the morning. You don&#x27;t have to try to imagine the experience of another primitive life form when you can just recall what there is or isn&#x27;t to your own conscious experience as you drift between states.
anfractuosity5 个月前
<a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;consc.net&#x2F;notes&#x2F;lloyd-comments.html" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;consc.net&#x2F;notes&#x2F;lloyd-comments.html</a> has some more info
tananan5 个月前
This kind of panpsychistic talk to me ends up feeling more closer to a reductive materialism than what I would firstly associate Chalmers with (&quot;hey, did you forget you can experience stuff?&quot;), which is probably just my ignorance with his work.<p>Because yes, you acknowledge &quot;experience&quot;, but you make it a function of a physical state described in such and such a way. In the same way that a set of particles at points A, B, C, .. correspond to such and such a (e.g. electric) field strength at point Z, we now imagine it could correspond also to such and such an experience.<p>It&#x27;s just barely &quot;experience&quot; on its own terms. and elicits a kind of epiphenomenalism and powerlesness. The thermostat*, after all, doesn&#x27;t choose anything nor does it profess to have any agency. So agency ought to end up some kind of ephiphenomenal &quot;observable&quot; of a system.<p>But besides being deflationary in this distasteful way, what bothers me with pictures like this is that they make use of entirely subject-made divisions between objects and their environments, and presume that they might correspond to experiences because - why not? Why not thing of the bottom and upper half of thermostat as corresponding to two fields of experience? Or the quarters, sixtheents, and so on until we get to individual atoms.<p>The thermostat doesn&#x27;t &quot;care&quot; if I think of it as the wax and glass separately, or as a single object containing both. But we do have a unified field of experience, and it doesn&#x27;t matter how another person &quot;cuts us up&quot; in their mind, whether it is as atoms interacting, organs behaving in unison, or just as a &quot;body&quot;.<p>It seems silly to say that between me and Bob having our separate experiences, there is an experience corresponding to &quot;me and Bob&quot;, supposedly free-floating somewhere just by virtue of the two of us being cognizable as a physical system.<p>It turns &quot;experience&quot; and that infamous &quot;qualia&quot; from something that&#x27;s the most direct and obvious to a weird phantom as the output of a presumed equation which maps some description of a physical state to an &quot;experience&quot;.<p>No wonder you&#x27;ll find people who&#x27;ll retort that they don&#x27;t experience things or that their consciousness is illusory - they have these weird detached notions of experiences to fight against.<p>* I imagined a thermometer throughout reading this piece, hence the mention of wax and such. It doesn&#x27;t really change the point so I&#x27;m leaving it.
评论 #42549897 未加载
ruthmarx5 个月前
For it to be &#x27;like&#x27; to be anything, the anything must have some send of self. Without a sense of self, there is just information processing.<p>For that reason, it isn&#x27;t &#x27;like&#x27; anything to be, say, most insects, let alone a thermostat.
评论 #42565804 未加载
johann83845 个月前
Wouldn&#x27;t the thermostat be more closely aligned with a nerve in the overall system and the control board be more aligned as the brain? The brain can get signals from multiple thermostatats in a system to control the temperature.
luxuryballs5 个月前
anyone know what font that is? (on mobile) reminds me of like an old 70s print
cubefox5 个月前
1996
评论 #42549392 未加载
justlikereddit5 个月前
This is why no one actually likes philosophers