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AI is creating a generation of illiterate programmers

69 点作者 namanyayg4 个月前

33 条评论

sschueller4 个月前
I recently needed to create a Dockerfile which I have done many times before. Instead of opening the documentation I used ChatGPT.<p>It took 3 times longer than if I had done it by hand because I just kept copy and pasting each error back to ChatGPT ending up in a dead end having to start over from scratch. As soon as you have a requirement that is not the 90% of cases you can quickly end up in a dead end especialy if you have more than one such requirement.<p>Once the LLM starts hallucinating you can easily get into corner where you will need to reset and start from scratch.
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dartos4 个月前
Programming is a skill that atrophies surprisingly quickly.<p>I spent a year just coasting at a job and not really writing any code.<p>It was quite difficult to get to my same level after starting my new job.<p>Now that I’m back there I’m weary of losing my touch again.
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mclau1564 个月前
Its also creating a generation of non-programmers who can now program
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aredox4 个月前
Using AI to become a better coder is like using <i>Reader&#x27;s Digest</i> to become a better writer, or build one&#x27;s taste in literature.
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jarsin4 个月前
AI devs are the new drag and droppers.<p>I remember all those devs who could only do tutorials using visual tools like VB6 and ASP forms.<p>Once the requirements went beyond the basics the project always got handed off to a real dev.
insane_dreamer4 个月前
&gt; We’re not becoming 10x developers with AI.<p>Of course not. The ultimate goal of AI is to get rid of the developers altogether and reduce costs (more profits!). You think BigTech are spending hundreds of billions just to make developers more productive while retaining them? That&#x27;s not a profitable strategy.<p>The copy&#x2F;paste with LLM interactive stage is just a transitional stage as the LLM improves. We&#x27;ll be past that in 5 years time.<p>No, AIs won&#x27;t replace all developers -- you still need people doing the systems designs that the AI can implement code for. But it could easily reduce their numbers by some large percentage (50%? 80%?).<p>Edit: I would no longer advise my kids to get a degree in Computer Science.
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lettergram4 个月前
&gt; We’re not becoming 10x developers with AI.<p>&gt; We’re becoming 10x dependent on AI. There’s a difference.<p>This is true, but I also don&#x27;t need 10x the ability to write cursive any more. I used to have great hand writing, now it&#x27;s a very poor. That said, my ability to communicate has only increased throughout my life. Similarly, my ability to spell has probably diminished with auto-correct.<p>Yes, you will become dependent on AI if you&#x27;re a developer, because those who use AI will take your job (if you don&#x27;t) and be significantly more productive than you. It sucks, but that&#x27;s reality. My grandfather started programing on physical cards, he knew a lot of stuff I had no idea about. That said, I&#x27;d be able to run circles around him in the programming (and literal) sense today.<p>The question is really what skills do you need to know to still execute the job with AI effectively. I&#x27;d argue that doesn&#x27;t change between AI and not having AI.<p>As a seasoned engineer, I spend probably 60% of my time designing, 30% managing&#x2F;mentoring&#x2F;reviewing and 10% coding. That probably wont change much with AI. I&#x27;ll just be able to get a lot more done with the coding and design in the same timeframe. My skillsets likely will remain the same, though writing small functions may diminish slightly.
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caseyy4 个月前
Yes but we already have illiterate programmers and there are companies who hire them, and the majority that recognises what they are and don’t. I’m talking about the code copy-pasters who cannot really reason about the problems they’re given nor understand how the code they pasted works. My point is that this is not a new phenomenon and I don’t think it will fool those that weren’t fooled by it before.
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red_admiral4 个月前
There are a lot of questions here that also apply to teaching CS. Do we want our graduates to still know the old way? Perhaps for job interviews and days when GPT is down and for problems it can&#x27;t solve yet.<p>The &quot;no AI without understanding the solution&quot; rule is a start here.
xena4 个月前
I&#x27;ve ended up only using inline generative AI completions to do programming when I&#x27;m either on a strict deadline or making a demo for a conference&#x2F;meetup talk. Otherwise I limit myself to pasting in&#x2F;out of a chat window. This helps balance things out so that I can meet deadlines when I need to, both otherwise retain my programming&#x2F;SRE skill.<p>That being said, one of my top google searches are things like &quot;kubernetes mount configmap as files&quot; because I don&#x27;t quite do them often enough to have them totally internalized yet.
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grajaganDev4 个月前
Leetcode has created a generation of illiterate programmers.
abeppu4 个月前
I think there&#x27;s a weird disconnect between the author&#x27;s experience (the automated tools are good but they induce dependency) and my own experience (the tools are bad, produces code that doesn&#x27;t type-check, produces explanations that don&#x27;t make sense, or suggest back to me the half-broken code I already have).<p>I continue to believe that these tools would be more reliable if rather than merely doing next-token-prediction on code, we trained on the co-occurrence of human-written code, resulting IR, and execution traces, so the model must understand at least one level deeper of <i>what the code does</i>. If the prompt is not just a prose description but e.g. a skeleton of a trace, or a set of inputs&#x2F;outputs&#x2F;observable side effects, then simultaneously our generative tools only allow outputs which meet the constraints, with the natural and reasonable cost that the engineer needs to think a little more deeply about what they want. I think if done right, this could make many of us <i>better</i> engineers.
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ivolimmen3 个月前
I have never used any AI for coding. It would feel like using side wheels on my bike. I have tested ChatGPT at one point but I did not even try coding stuff.
KaiserPro4 个月前
I bet there are journals that have roughly the same sentiment for compiled languages vs assembler. and then again on assembler vs machine code.<p>However just like learning to drive, I think there is much scope for forcing the basics once in a while.<p>The old programming blue shell, as it were.
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_Algernon_4 个月前
Tangent: I remember hearing of a sci-fi story where a city has been automated for generations and stuff is starting to fall apart while nobody knows how to fix it. Does anyone know what the name is? I have been unable to find it for a while.
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sys327684 个月前
Eventually won&#x27;t AI be trained on a massive corpus of source code and be tuned to actually program something as good as a lot of the existing bloatware out there that businesses pay out the nose for?
EmersonL4 个月前
It&#x27;s all in how you use it. Copy&#x2F;paste driven development has long been a meme in the programming community.<p>For me, AI is like pairing with a very knowledgeable and experienced developer that has infinite time, infinite patience, and zero judgements about my stupid questions or knowledge gaps. Together, we tackle roadblocks, dive deep into concepts, and as a result, I accept less compromises in my work. Hell, I&#x27;ve managed to learn and become productive in Vim for the first time in my career with the help of AI.
matthewfelgate4 个月前
But is a programmer who uses AI to program the same as<p><pre><code> a Typescript programmer who doesn&#x27;t understand JavaScript well? Or a Python programmer who doesn&#x27;t know C? Or a C programmer who doesn&#x27;t know assembly code? Or an assembly coder who doesn&#x27;t make his own PCBs? </code></pre> Is AI orchestration just adding another layer of abstraction to the top of the programming stack?
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smitty1e4 个月前
The last guy who traditionally &quot;knew everything&quot; was Erasmus.<p>The shame is not in outsourcing the skill to, e.g. make a pencil[1]; rather, the shame is not retaining one&#x27;s major skill. In IT, that is actually <i>thinking</i>.<p>[1] <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.youtube.com&#x2F;watch?v=67tHtpac5ws" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.youtube.com&#x2F;watch?v=67tHtpac5ws</a>
grahamj4 个月前
X to doubt. So far at least, to do anything nontrivial you still have to understand code. Sure it will raise the bar for what someone without such understanding can make, but a lot of that can already be done with code-free tools.<p>What most people who would call themselves programmers are working on is far beyond what AI can do today, or probably in the foreseeable future.
TechDebtDevin4 个月前
My rule with LLMs is to use them only after reading documentation. It&#x27;s easy to ask them for some boilerplate for something you haven&#x27;t done in a long time, however, I think its better to just take five minutes to go read whatever spec&#x2F;documentation is out there and then ask the LLM to write whatever code if you want.
calmworm4 个月前
And high level programming languages created a generation of programmers who can’t code in assembly or machine language.
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vrighter4 个月前
&#x27;Instead, I’m starting with “No-AI Days.” One day a week where...&#x27;<p>That&#x27;s not enough. You will inevitably hit a problem which you will leave for &quot;tomorrow&quot; because tomorrow is not a No-AI day.
zimbatm4 个月前
This is true for any type of assistance. We have had the same arguments about calculators a long time ago.
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parpfish4 个月前
What does gpt dependence look like for people that have non-programming office jobs where they just email all day?<p>Do they just copy paste emails and office menus into an agent and send responses? Do they actually make any decisions themselves, or do they just go with whatever?
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koakuma-chan4 个月前
&gt; First, I stopped reading documentation. Why bother when AI could explain things instantly?<p>Because AI doesn&#x27;t have the latest documentation.
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ookblah4 个月前
imo we are seeing two types of programming viewports emerge.<p>i mean maybe it&#x27;s just me but i quite like this new normal where i&#x27;m an &quot;intermediary&quot;. i review every line that comes out and research things if they don&#x27;t make sense or i&#x27;m confused. and a lot of times it helps me figure out how to approach a problem or refine an existing one. i&#x27;m still architecting everything and diving in.<p>i guess if you liken progamming to like i dunno, chopping your own tree down, turning it into 2x4s to build a house then yeah, it seems like your skills are atrophying.<p>i do not miss the &quot;joy&quot; of writing random boilerplate 100s of times or variations of the same function. i do however fear for the the new generation who maybe didn&#x27;t cut their teeth on having minimal guidance. i can totally see people just coasting and blindly pasting things, but that&#x27;s always sort of existed on stack exchange, etc.
tennisflyi4 个月前
Yes. Things can be too easy
hybrid_study4 个月前
Is this yet another thought that overemphasizes the immediate now? AI is developing so quickly it&#x27;s difficult to see a whole generation of programmers being affected by negative transient aspects of this.
ickelbawd4 个月前
Yes. But still you’re going to make AI tools anyway… ffs.<p>I think AI is just giving cover to all the incompetent people in your org, and in fact will create more incompetence via the effect you yourself noticed.<p>Eventually you’ll find many if not most of your coworkers are just wrappers around an LLM and provide little additional benefit—as I am finding.
flerchin4 个月前
Whatever you do, you get better at. Let&#x27;s not wring our hands and fret over the generation of programmers that don&#x27;t write assembly anymore.
Tenoke4 个月前
They wouldn&#x27;t needed to be &#x27;literate&#x27; just how many programmers today don&#x27;t need to know assembly or low level languages or compilers for their jobs.
remoroid4 个月前
Coding will become AI dominated at many levels. A lot of people on here don&#x27;t want to hear that because they have an ego about their exclusive coding skills. Your compensation will decrease. You may be fired. The coding ability of the average &#x27;senior&#x27; developer is not impressive, and the title will not protect you.
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