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Asahi Linux lead developer Hector Martin resigns from Linux kernel

918 点作者 Mond_3 个月前

64 条评论

19h3 个月前
The frustration seems justified.<p>Spending significant time adapting core kernel code or developing a safe Rust abstraction for DMA, only to be summarily shut down by a single gatekeeper who cites &quot;not wanting multiple languages&quot; is demotivating. It&#x27;s especially incongruent given that others have championed Rust in the kernel, and Linux has begun hosting Rust modules.<p>If the project leadership — i.e. Linus — truly wants Rust integrated, that stance needs to be firmly established as policy rather than left up to maintainers who can veto work they personally dislike. Otherwise, contributors end up in a limbo where they invest weeks or months, navigate the intricacies of the kernel&#x27;s development model, and then find out a single personality is enough to block them. Even if that personality has valid technical reasons, the lack of a centralized, consistent direction on Rust&#x27;s role causes friction.<p>Hector&#x27;s decision to leave is understandable: either you have an official green light to push Rust forward or you don&#x27;t. Half measures invite exactly this kind of conflict. And expecting one massive rewrite or an all‐encompassing patch is unrealistic. Integration into something as large and historically C‐centric as Linux must be iterative and carefully built out. If one top‐level developer says &quot;no Rust&quot;, while others push &quot;Rust for safety&quot;, that is a sign that the project&#x27;s governance lacks clarity on this point.<p>Hector&#x27;s departure highlights how messy these half signals can get, and if I were him, I&#x27;d also want to see an unambiguous stance on Rust — otherwise, it&#x27;s not worth investing the time just to beg that your code, no matter how well engineered, might be turned down by personal preference.
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AndyKelley3 个月前
I&#x27;ve been saying this for years now: the rust4linux folks are putting so much effort into trying to upstream their work, seems like they should instead put that effort into maintaining a fork. Arguably it would be less hours spent porting than arguing with humans. Certainly more pleasant!<p>Then one of two things will happen:<p>* Rust will prove its worth and their fork will be the better operating system. Distros will start switching to it one by one due to its increased performance and stability, and they will have dethroned Linus and become gods of the new world.<p>* The project will die because the C programmers will outcompete it with good ol&#x27; C, and all their talk about safety doesn&#x27;t pan out in the real world.<p>If I were the rust4linux leadership, I&#x27;d roll those dice.<p>Sounds like Hector Martin is doing exactly that, burning the bridge along the way. Good luck! I think it&#x27;s the right move (minus the bridge burning).
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mplewis9z3 个月前
Marcan certainly can be abrasive (I mean lol, so can Linus), but all the things he points out in the message below are 100% valid - I highly recommend for anyone here to try to contribute something even very small and logical to the Linux kernel or git (which use similar processes), it’s an eye-opening experience that’s incredibly unapproachable, frustrating, and demoralizing.<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;lore.kernel.org&#x2F;rust-for-linux&#x2F;208e1fc3-cfc3-4a26-98c3-a48ab35bb9db@marcan.st&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;lore.kernel.org&#x2F;rust-for-linux&#x2F;208e1fc3-cfc3-4a26-98...</a>
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gary_03 个月前
The Rust drama is an uncommon failure of leadership for Torvalds. Instead of decisively saying &quot;no, never&quot; or &quot;yes, make it so,&quot; he has consistently equivocated on the Rust issue. Given the crisis of confidence among a sizeable (and very vocal) contingent of the Linux community, that decision has backfired horribly. And it&#x27;s quite out of character for Linus not to have a blazingly clear opinion. (We all know his stance on C++, for instance.)<p>As a pilot program, R4L should have graduated or ended a long time ago. After several years of active development, its status remains unclear. Instead of cracking heads to get everyone on the same page, Linus has instead spent all this time sitting back and watching his subordinates fight amongst themselves, only to then place responsibility for the drama on Martin&#x27;s shoulders. Poor form.<p>Arguably his reprimand of Martin is a clear signal that he will never show Rust any favor, but he hasn&#x27;t said anything explicitly. Maybe he knows he should, but he fears the shitstorm it will cause. Maybe it&#x27;s time for him to rip off the band-aid, though.<p>And again, all of this could have been avoided if he&#x27;d just put his foot down one way or the other. Imagine how much time and energy (even just Martin&#x27;s alone) could have been saved if Linus had just said &quot;no, keep it downstream&quot;.
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AgentME3 个月前
If an individual maintainer can veto critical parts of the Rust for Linux project and announce they&#x27;ll do everything they can to stop it, then Linus is wasting everyone else&#x27;s time pretending it&#x27;s a real project. It&#x27;s not a proper environment to put contributors in.
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nialv73 个月前
Quoting from this thread <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;lore.kernel.org&#x2F;rust-for-linux&#x2F;Z6OzgBYZNJPr_ZD1@phenom.ffwll.local&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;lore.kernel.org&#x2F;rust-for-linux&#x2F;Z6OzgBYZNJPr_ZD1@phen...</a><p>&gt; Simona Vetter: (addressing Hector) ...Now I&#x27;m left with the unlikely explanation that you just like thundering in as the cavalry, fashionably late, maximally destructive, because it entertains the masses on fedi or reddit or wherever. I have no idea what you&#x27;re trying to achieve here, I really don&#x27;t get it, but I am for sure fed up dealing with the fallout.<p>&gt; Dave Airlie: To back up Sima here, we don&#x27;t need grandstanding, brigading, playing to the crowd, streamer drama creation or any of that in discussions around this. The r4l team and drm maintainer team have this sort of thing in hand, it&#x27;s not like we don&#x27;t understand the community of the Linux kernel, and having this first reaction to blow shit up and dramatise it just isn&#x27;t helpful.<p>(Obviously I am taking things a bit out of context here, I recommend giving this thread a read.)<p>Seems to be pretty level-headed, on point, and damning. So yeah, I don&#x27;t know if I am on marcan&#x27;s side this time.
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Havoc3 个月前
From what I can piece together it seems Hector is upset about someone (&quot;Hellwig&quot;?) doing something that was seen as intentionally sabotaging the rust efforts. Hector posted about it on socials. Linus came down on Hector for leveraging socials to fight kernel disputes. Hector quits.<p>No doubt that is a flawed summary so feel free to correct
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coldtea3 个月前
Martin has worked hard on Asahi, but comes of as looking for drama and virtue signalling oftentimes. I&#x27;d give this to Linus.
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SamuelAdams3 个月前
I cannot find it, but I distinctly remember a post by Rachel on her blog (rachelbythebay) that talks about this exact problem in open source.<p>Sometimes the nuance of appealing to maintainers emotions is more work than writing the software yourself and maintaining your own private fork.<p>If someone could find that blog post (and subsequent hacker news ref) it would be a fun way to compare this discourse to Rachel’s discourse.<p>Edit:<p>Found it: Choosing to stay out of the community.<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;rachelbythebay.com&#x2F;w&#x2F;2018&#x2F;10&#x2F;09&#x2F;moat&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;rachelbythebay.com&#x2F;w&#x2F;2018&#x2F;10&#x2F;09&#x2F;moat&#x2F;</a><p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=18181409">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=18181409</a>
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Mond_3 个月前
For context: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=42926732">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=42926732</a><p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;lore.kernel.org&#x2F;rust-for-linux&#x2F;CAHk-=wi=ZmP2=TmHsFSUGq8vUZAOWWSK1vrJarMaOhReDRQRYQ@mail.gmail.com&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;lore.kernel.org&#x2F;rust-for-linux&#x2F;CAHk-=wi=ZmP2=TmHsFSU...</a>
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eqvinox3 个月前
He also got his treehouse.systems Mastodon account &quot;suspended by a moderator&quot;. Not sure if the treehouse people have said anything more specfic, but I am entirely unsurprised given how he behaved on there.<p>It&#x27;s a quite clear case of &quot;what you accuse others of is what you yourself resort to&quot;. He was calling out others for unreasonableness, flaming and sabotage — and did exactly that himself.
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mjw10073 个月前
&gt; Apple&#x2F;ARM platform development will continue downstream. If I feel like sending some patches upstream in the future myself for whatever subtree I may, or I may not.<p>I suppose it&#x27;s possible that that could turn out well.<p>The situation with Apple hardware feels a bit like the early days of Linux (including the fast pace of development). There was a time when if you wanted broad hardware support it was better to run an Alan Cox kernel than a Linus kernel. And the whole point of git was to have a system that didn&#x27;t require one central blessed tree.
trollied3 个月前
Linus replied:<p><pre><code> How about you accept the fact that maybe the problem is you. You think you know better. But the current process works. It has problems, but problems are a fact of life. There is no perfect. However, I will say that the social media brigading just makes me not want to have anything at all to do with your approach. Because if we have issues in the kernel development model, then social media sure as hell isn&#x27;t the solution. The same way it sure as hell wasn&#x27;t the solution to politics. Technical patches and discussions matter. Social media brigading - no than\k you.</code></pre>
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gigatexal3 个月前
I don&#x27;t have anything to add regarding the Hector v. Linus debate, who was in the wrong, who was in the right, who&#x27;s to blame etc...<p>All I want to know is what&#x27;s the long term viability of Asahi Linux or Linux for that matter on M series chip&#x27;d Macs? What&#x27;s the burden going to be for Fedora Asahi if the work remains out of tree? Has Redhat&#x2F;IBM stated they&#x27;ll support it via the Fedora project going forward? What if they pull support?
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sturza3 个月前
Wow, this thread is wild. It’s like everyone’s losing their minds over mixing Rust into our old, battle-tested C kernel. Sure, Rust promises a ton of safety benefits and could really help keep nasty bugs at bay, but some folks are super worried that every time a C API changes, the Rust side will break—and then someone’s stuck fixing it. It’s as if everyone’s saying, “We’re cool with experimenting, but don’t force us into a multi-language mess we didn’t sign up for.”<p>What really gets me is the whole leadership vibe. If Linus had just clearly said, “Alright, Rust is in, but only in these specific parts and under these conditions,” a lot of this back-and-forth and social media shouting would’ve been avoided. Instead, we’ve got a bunch of maintainers arguing about process and even threatening to use social media to shame people, which just adds more fuel to the fire.<p>At the end of the day, it’s not as simple as “Rust or no Rust.” Some parts of the kernel might really benefit from Rust’s safety, while other parts might be fine sticking to C. The real challenge is figuring out how to integrate Rust without turning everything into a maintenance nightmare. We’re all aiming for a better, more robust kernel here, but if we keep getting bogged down in personal drama and endless debates about process, nobody wins. Maybe it’s time to take a deep breath, set some clear rules, and move on instead of letting all this online drama derail progress.
0x1ceb00da3 个月前
Linus vs. Rustaceans: the get off my lawn sequel nobody asked for. Kernel devs now double as drama critics, social media is the new mailing list flamewar arena, and somewhere a C pointer quietly segfaults out of spite. Will rust ever &quot;make install&quot;? Stay tuned! To find out in the next episode of <i>Keeping Up with the Rustaceans</i>
adager3 个月前
Marcan hasn&#x27;t actually resigned. He&#x27;s still posting on the LKML under a well-known alias.<p>See <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;lkml.org&#x2F;lkml&#x2F;2025&#x2F;2&#x2F;7&#x2F;15" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;lkml.org&#x2F;lkml&#x2F;2025&#x2F;2&#x2F;7&#x2F;15</a> for example.
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alberth3 个月前
&gt; I am supported exclusively by donations, which incidentally, have been steadily <i>de</i>creasing since the start of the Asahi Linux project. The project has zero corporate sponsorship.<p>People’s donations to Asahi Linux have <i>decreased</i>, according to Hector from this thread [0]<p>Here’s how to donate: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;asahilinux.org&#x2F;support&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;asahilinux.org&#x2F;support&#x2F;</a><p>[0] <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;lore.kernel.org&#x2F;rust-for-linux&#x2F;c5a49bcb-45cf-4295-80e0-c4b07083df00@marcan.st&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;lore.kernel.org&#x2F;rust-for-linux&#x2F;c5a49bcb-45cf-4295-80...</a>
ramon1563 个月前
He basically said goodbye like 4 times and continued to make long ass rants that lead to nothing. Is this what you want to spend your time on? I already feel gross that I went through all these threads. I can&#x27;t imagine how you would feel having written all these paragraphs of slop.
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zamalek3 个月前
You know, Redox (as the &quot;most serious&quot; Rust kernel I can think of) could probably do with non-trivial drivers. It would be unfortunate for aspiring or even seasoned kernel developers to step away from the practice entirely, simply because R4L fails to launch.
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docandrew3 个月前
I don’t see why forking is not an option here.<p>If the upstream maintainers don’t want to adopt it, the Rust folks can gradually rewrite the bits they want to and let the market decide. Use the Ballmer “embrace, extend, extinguish” model.
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anonnon3 个月前
Can someone steelman Linus&#x27;s:<p>&gt; ABSOLUTELY NO C++ in the kernel EVER. But Rust is totally fine.<p>stance? It seems pretty absurd when you consider the closer similarity between C and C++ (and the more straight-forward migration path from C to C++), and the fact that GCC supports C++ (even recent vintages) natively on many more architectures.
fooker3 个月前
The rust folks should make a Linux compatible kernel and distros that include a stripped down Linux kernel as a compatibility layer for legacy software.
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HacklesRaised3 个月前
It is a quandry, the kernel is predominantly C, Rust has demonstrated a path forward, producing safer code without sacrificing performance, but it is undeniable that a mixed code base is far harder to maintain, not impossible.<p>Here&#x27;s the thing, in the next couple of years languages like Carbon, Zig, even Jai, will come of age. They will have their proponents and people who want to introduce them into kernel code.<p>If there is a rust developer out there who doesn&#x27;t resist the introduction of these languages as ardently as the chosen people (C) are resisting rust, then I will show you someone who lives in some kind of alternate reality.<p>Personally, I&#x27;d be pressuring the C committee to introduce defer, tout suite, otherwise Zig looks favourite. But the reality is that your preferred language is just that, your preferred language, most have seen this drama before and will choose not to participate.<p>As to whether Linus is failing in his leadership role? Nah, Then again, I wish Sony would open source the PS OS and we can be done with this juvenile debate as to which OS should rule the world. Either that or let&#x27;s have an exokernal and move on from this monololithic story, surely that would meet the needs of the MY FAVOURITE LANGUAGE isn&#x27;t appreciated crowd!!
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rednafi3 个月前
There will be a similar drama when Zig reaches 1.0. There will be a bunch of Ziggers trying to get it into the kernal. The Rust fad is already slowing down. Maybe it&#x27;s a good idea to wait 10-15 years before trying to rewrite the universe in a &quot;memory safe&quot; language and pushing that upstream.
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dark-star3 个月前
I understand the frustration, but I don&#x27;t understand the drama.<p>There are other big Linux forks that met a similar resistance, best example is probably Realtime Linux &#x2F; RTLinux that was not welcome in the Kernel for what, 15 years? Yet they still continued in their own fork and now most of their patches have finally gone in.<p>The way they&#x27;re going to work now should have been the default. Just as RTLinux was a big change to the Linux kernel, Rust will be a big change. You cannot expect the Kernel community to welcome such a huge change with open arms and deal with all the fallout (build system, interfaces, etc.)<p>Just be ready for your project to take a decade, instead of trying to force it in &quot;now or never&quot;. Until then, maintain some out-of-tree modules written in rust that every Linux distro&#x2F;user can try and test without much fuss. For example, I don&#x27;t think it will be a huge problem if Mac users have to get their DRM driver at some other repo (or if distributions would have to package some `linux-module-drm-apple` package separately from the Kernel)
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dingi3 个月前
Rust or not, mixing two different languages within a single project is a sure fire way for a maintenance nightmare. Specially for a large project like Linux. I sincerely don’t want something like that happening to the Linux kernel. Just let it die with C. However it may seem improbable, writing a kernel from scratch is the way to go for new wanna be system programming languages.
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pjmlp3 个月前
Likewise most Rust efforts going on from Microsoft and Google are on downstream, Android, Sphere OS,...<p>This was to be expected, many of their anti-C++ complaints also apply to Rust, given that both languages share many common ideas, even if presented in different forms.
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sc68cal3 个月前
It&#x27;s cowardly and easy for me to say now after the fact, but I saw the original Mastodon post because I follow Hector Martin. I didn&#x27;t think that it was going to make the situation any better but I didn&#x27;t have the energy to even fire off a one-off comment saying so.<p>I absolutely get emotional about my work. I have absolutely sabotaged myself by not having the presence of mind to step back and take a deep breath. I had a moment of clarity reading Hector&#x27;s post on Mastodon, and I&#x27;m sad that my suspicion that this was going to just make things worse was correct
shadowgovt3 个月前
I think it looks like both sides are making some pretty valid points here.<p>Those who are nervous about embracing Rust further are just fine. Rust is still a young language. It shows an awful lot of promise, but it isn&#x27;t a magic cure for safety and security concerns, especially at the kernel level. It is entirely possible that Linux is a bad fit for the language, and the real way to get ta Rust kernel is for a team to come together and implement a kernel in Rust, from scratch, perhaps with POSIX compatibility.<p>On the flip side, Hector is entirely correct that the overall process of maintaining and improving Linux is incredibly baroque and grounded squarely in some tooling that just stinks in the modern ecosystem. It has worked for Linux for ages. It is also increasingly making working on Linux a specialized project space because nobody else manages projects like this. Hector is fine leaving if he finds that process two owners to be worth his volunteered time. And it is entirely possible that there will come a day when the value of the project itself is outweighed by the cost of interacting with the project and Linux will get supplanted in the common ecosystem by something else.<p>In short, Hector is probably making the right move here. If he wants to continue working on a problem like this, a new operating system might actually be the right solution.
vednig3 个月前
Linux is one of the most complicated OS in the history of OS and both of them understand this in someway or the other, it&#x27;s still not cracked enough market share to dominate the personal computer market even in 2025, but is already on millions of other devices except PCs and a small change in decision like r4l brings the whole perspective into matter, after the fact that rust is highly compute intensive language and low end processors might not be able to catchup the speed in the best possible way these industries work, memory is cheap to include and hence the decision to include Python was a comparatively easy one, but rust is a highly balanced choice currently which makes the decision more difficult for Linux to include R4L in kernel, hence the dissolution on parts in which to include.<p>This is based on my limited experience with rust, but I believe we really need to give rust more time to mature it enough to see where we&#x27;re going with the builds to actually decide on this matter, even personally. Plus, Linux has been keeping the Linux Kernel project alive for so long that he probably already has got the experience of knowing the repercussions of a wrong decision. Being hasty in this scenario doesn&#x27;t solve the problem
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markus_zhang3 个月前
I have a question. Instead of fighting an uphill war in the Linux kernel community, why don&#x27;t Rush developers just make a new kernel or fork their own? Sure it&#x27;s going to take years, but at least they don&#x27;t have to suffer the mental outrages from time to time and can do whatever they want? I mean I&#x27;d do it if that&#x27;s what I want.<p>P.S I don&#x27;t have skin and skill for the kernel game. I&#x27;m just a curious bystander.
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hdbsbdb3 个月前
I don&#x27;t quite get the fuzz. A subsystem&#x27;s maintainer&#x27;s job is to maintain. If he cannot guarantee the maintenance of something, it&#x27;s his&#x2F;her job to say no<p>You are free to either take over maintenance of the Subsystem or do a fork<p>But throwing a tamper tantrum on social media is definitely the wrong way forward
ninkendo3 个月前
LWN has a great impartial summary of what is occurring, including background on why the DMA subsystem is an important interface point for rust drivers: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;lwn.net&#x2F;SubscriberLink&#x2F;1006805&#x2F;be4cb766fd906623&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;lwn.net&#x2F;SubscriberLink&#x2F;1006805&#x2F;be4cb766fd906623&#x2F;</a><p>(This is a shared link to a subscriber-only LWN article, please consider a paid subscription to LWN if you liked it!)
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anonfordays3 个月前
Zig will likely go through the same trials and tribulations that Rust has for introduction into the Linux kernel. Considering Zig&#x27;s better C interopt, the fact that the Zig compiler can natively compile C, the Zig community&#x27;s lack of zealotry and proselytizing that plagues the Rust community, etc., I believe it will be better received.
ge963 个月前
Damn, I liked watching the YT streams, above my head but yeah<p>Edit: I&#x27;m not super invested in the topic at hand I use all 3 OS&#x27;s and only use Mac to develop with&#x2F;for using MacOS<p>But kernel-level dev is hardcore and especially for open source, I&#x27;ve experienced that with the Pine64 devices which are almost worthless without the devs contributing to its software
shae3 个月前
I tried helping with the Linux kernel once, in 2001. I haven&#x27;t since. I don&#x27;t need abrasive people in my life.
OtomotO3 个月前
It&#x27;s fine to say no to a particular patch on technical grounds.<p>It&#x27;s fine to say no to any other language but C in the Linux Kernel on a global basis.<p>What&#x27;s not fine is caprice and depotism.<p>Either Rust is allowed, or it is not.<p>Stop wasting time.<p>And stop C-zealotry, it&#x27;s as embarrassing as Rust zealotry, if not more so.
mhh__3 个月前
An interesting question: Who is the Linus Torvalds for Rust in the kernel? Who says no to slop?
sushidev3 个月前
Such a huge discussion and I can’t really understand the problem from reading the comments or some of the excerpts linked. Can anyone explain to me what is the real issue here?
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sussmannbaka3 个月前
silly hector, everyone knows that bullying, screaming at people in public and insulting them online is a privilege of long-term maintainers who can do no wrong
ThinkBeat3 个月前
Linus has to have one of the most stressful and difficult jobs available.¹<p>The Linux kernel is part of so many different things, projects, products, companies, etc. A change can really duck things up.<p>Being conservative, and slow, in adopting new things is good for the main line.<p>You have idealistic developers who have seen a way to do something better, that is great. I know the feeling.<p>I have never done anything with the Linux kernel, but I have worked on some large legacy codebases. and it is to come in, look around, and just go &quot;Gosh, this here is just slow, I&#x27;ll just fix this&quot;. and it will be a good solution right there, but it might be suboptimal overall.<p>Chances are really good that you dont understand the entire picture when you &quot;fix something&quot;, and someone who does, may not like the change. and even if the technical solution is clearly better from one angle.<p>I am glad I will never be involved in blessing or passing on 1.000.000 different changes being proposed as improvements to Linux every week.
kunley3 个月前
I wish Linus Torvalds to have long life and powers to keep his down-to-earth approach as long as it is possible. I wish his era was never replaced.
cosmic_cheese3 个月前
I haven’t read the entire thread but based on the except I did, while I won’t claim that Hector isn’t entirely in the right there’s also major longstanding issues with the process that the kernel devs seem to refuse to do anything about.<p>It seems like big enough of a sticking point that if a forked alternative with a less insular contribution model appeared, it could gain enough steam to keep itself afloat. All it’d take is for someone with deep enough pockets to fund a few founding engineers to be the subject of this kind of frustration.
nailer3 个月前
I hope they fork Linux. A safer kernel and modern faster development practices would be excellent for the entire ecosystem
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markhahn3 个月前
Not an especially significant event, by the numbers. It&#x27;s a large community so there are tails.
mperham3 个月前
By the time Rust is welcome in the Linux kernel, projects like Redox will be full fledged competitors. I&#x27;d bet Hector would be welcomed there.<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.redox-os.org" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.redox-os.org</a>
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qbq3 个月前
Good reminder to take a look at FreeBSD
vednig3 个月前
in my mind Swift is a much better language to include than rust, unfortunately the support for Swift on Linux is so bad currently that it&#x27;s not worth exploring.<p>If ever integrated Swift might change the whole paradigm
samcat1163 个月前
This really makes me want to learn rust and contribute to Redox.
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rdtsc3 个月前
“How did you hurt yourself today?” - “I threatened Linux devs with social media shaming and publicly quit contributing to Linux to teach them a lesson. But it boomeranged, and now everyone is talking about my behavior”
DSingularity3 个月前
How dare he be tired of using emails for reviews. Or manual formatting his work.<p>Let him fork!<p>Jokes aside: I hope he forks and establishes a CoC and if what he does is more effective we will all benefit by it.
qbq3 个月前
Good reminder to look at FreeBSD
leoh3 个月前
Not wanting 2 languages is ridiculous. Only one of them is actually safe. Whatever Linus thinks, empowering someone to say “no” to “two languages” is pretty idiotic; if someone did that to me, I wouldn’t go to social media to bitch about it, but I can sure as heck sympathize with the sentiment.<p>Whoever owns DMA or whatever and rejected rust out of hand like this should frankly be _forced_ to resign. This is truly arrogant and egotistical behavior, almost certainly contingent upon FUD and insecurity and laziness about not just learning Rust.<p>Good grief, last time I feel excited about submitting a kernel patch; what a ridiculous situation.
9999000009993 个月前
Have to side with the one language argument here.<p>It&#x27;s hard enough to get a single programming language to work right. C is old and stable.<p>Rust is new and mostly stable, mostly stable isn&#x27;t going to cut it when billions upon billions of devices depend on your work.<p>At the same time this type of ego driven drama keeps me out of the open source community. I have enough people telling me how to code during my 9-5.<p>I open source most of my projects, but it&#x27;s not a collaboration. I&#x27;ll even admit, I get really annoyed when someone puts in a PR that&#x27;s literally just a bunch of spacing changes in a readme. I think there was some influencer who was claiming that you should go through GitHub, and submit as many changes for things like grammar as possible to a bunch of different projects .<p>And then on your resume you can put that you contribute it to all these projects. Not fun.
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im3w1l3 个月前
So I heard some rumors about US policy affecting Rust. That Rust formely got money from USAID, and also the thing about the US government should promote memory safety (or smth like that?) was removed.<p>Could that be relevant to this story, or is that a complete sidetrack?<p>Edit: Asking because the timing is curious.
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sim7c003 个月前
always knew rust was good for nothing... now look what it did. the language itswlf is in conflict with itself and anything it touches in a serious way reflect that silly state
aero-glide23 个月前
I agree with Hector Martin here. The mailing list format is putting off so many developers. Linux needs to modernize.
meindnoch3 个月前
Rust has probably the most toxic people in open source software.
leonewton2533 个月前
I would encourage it in the Kernel. Maybe even go as far as porting large portions to Rust.
feverzsj3 个月前
Linus should have already accepted the C++ patch instead of these Rust dramas.
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yarosh3 个月前
1. I do believe that Rust type system needs to be reworked, so all the drama around it is needlessly bloated. We have RustBelt, RustHornBelt and myriads ways of converting HIR&#x2F;THIR&#x2F;MIR to CoQ, for better or worse, but no MLIR support for rust codegen whatsoever. Rust is temporary, we&#x27;ll get a simpler and better Lang further down the road.<p>2. The upstream fight had always followed the Cash Flow. If you have so called &quot;problems&quot; you either act yourself, or let other people do something about it, the way it won&#x27;t result in more long-term issues. Deliberate Detraction IS a Sign of Corruption and Abuse of Power.<p>3. An ambiguous Point of Conflict may not be Conflict at all, but just an outcome of the Lack of Proper Communication and Transparency. Detraction is Accountable, social dynamics and social incline with explicit or implicit motives is Accountable as well. The lack of Effective Code of Conduct, and absence of Proper Punitive Action, for everyone, will cause Authoritarianism (or just Genocide of Engineering Thought).<p>I do feel bad about the state of Linux Kernel development, but we&#x27;ll have either to move on, and learn from This Mistake, or do something about it.
williamDafoe3 个月前
I get this impression that the Rust people think they are a stage where Rust is a viral phenom but it&#x27;s really not. Nevertheless, they are behaving like its viral and trying to force it down everybody&#x27;s throats, even though I never heard of some software package or system that was built natively in rust that truly went viral. The other day I tried to install a python package and - big surprise - it REQUIRED me to install a rust toolchain to install the python package! Well, that package went straight into the dumpster (i&#x27;m on WSL which DOES NOT have a rust toolchain)!<p>This &quot;we&#x27;re viral&quot; behavior when &quot;it&#x27;s really not&quot; is very childish.
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johnea3 个月前
People do love their drama don&#x27;t they 8-)<p>Regarding the point of &quot;community&quot; being difficult to manage in &quot;open source&quot; projects, I would argue managing a large group of developers on any project is difficult and full of drama.<p>I&#x27;m personally not an advocate of the &quot;open source&quot; obfuscation term myself, but the public license of the linux kernel has little to do with the drama.<p>Maybe the fact that linux developers have some kind of say at all, as opposed to some proprietary dev projects where every decision is handled by fiat (and Linus has certainly served this role at times), causes it to have more drama.<p>But no matter what model is followed, people do love their drama, and a large dev group is a social activity regardless of the licensing of the software itself.<p>Its like every social issue ever: the thing all participants have in common is that they are all humans...