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It is no longer safe to move our governments and societies to US clouds

1403 点作者 Sami_Lehtinen3 个月前

101 条评论

skrebbel3 个月前
To all the people saying that this is nothing new: to me the key point here is that the author of this article, Bert Hubert, isn&#x27;t your average activist &#x2F; purist linux hacker. He&#x27;s at least <i>somewhat</i> influential in government circles, in that he has held various government IT consulting positions and is listened to by lots of government IT workers. He&#x27;s one of the few people I know of who deeply understands how tech works, and also deeply understands how government works (at least the Dutch government). He&#x27;s also a frequent guest in radio and TV shows and the likes.<p>I&#x27;m hoping that this article acts as a catalyst for the Dutch government, and other EU governments, to move everything away from American clouds.
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pclmulqdq3 个月前
It was never safe for any government to move any secrets to any cloud. The fact that the US government is okay with doing this with its own secrets surprises me to this day. You have no secrets from the person who owns your hardware.
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pedropaulovc3 个月前
This is nothing new, Microsoft signed an agreement with the French government to build a sovereign cloud called Bleu [1] operated by Orange and Capgemini using Azure and Microsoft 365 technology. The German government did something similar and launched Delos Cloud, operated by SAP and Arvato Systems.<p>[1] <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.globenewswire.com&#x2F;en&#x2F;news-release&#x2F;2021&#x2F;05&#x2F;27&#x2F;2237023&#x2F;0&#x2F;en&#x2F;Press-Release-Capgemini-and-Orange-announce-plan-to-create-Bleu-a-company-to-provide-a-Cloud-de-Confiance-in-France.html" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.globenewswire.com&#x2F;en&#x2F;news-release&#x2F;2021&#x2F;05&#x2F;27&#x2F;223...</a><p>[2] <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.bertelsmann.com&#x2F;news-and-media&#x2F;news&#x2F;first-sovereign-cloud-platform-for-the-german-administration-on-the-home-straight.jsp" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.bertelsmann.com&#x2F;news-and-media&#x2F;news&#x2F;first-sovere...</a>
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stego-tech3 个月前
Good to see this attitude becoming increasingly prevalent. I&#x27;m used to being a Cassandra in IT world, and while I&#x27;d have <i>greatly preferred being wrong</i> in my 2019 research concerns about data sovereignty, cloud-repatriation, vendor lock-in, and a shifting geopolitical landscape, <i>welp, here we are anyway</i>. I cut my teeth in data center operations and defense contracting, and knew immediately the real cost of public cloud would be the forfeiture of sovereignty to whichever country (and companies) controlled the major providers - <i>surprise surprise</i>, I was right. The solution was never to outsource core government infrastructure to a third party, but to build it in house and recruit the talent needed to keep it running, something easily done on most developed governments&#x27; budgets; by outsourcing to public cloud service providers, they traded national sovereignty for empty promises.<p>Bookmark this comment, because my read is that in five years&#x27; time the question won&#x27;t be whether or not public cloud providers can be trusted, but how to engineer infrastructure on cloud providers <i>you cannot trust</i>. How do you encrypt storage on a cloud platform when you can&#x27;t trust the vendor&#x27;s tooling to secure your keys? How do you orchestrate K8s clusters in a provider who knowingly gives a hostile foreign government access to your etcd or network layer? How do you handle data boundaries within your own org when multiple countries with competing standards demand residency of data and infrastructure? I worry it&#x27;ll be the &quot;Chinese Firewall&quot; problem but on a global scale, as different regions carve out their own digital kingdoms and demand fealty or expulsion.
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1over1373 个月前
Canadian government IT is mostly all Microsoft. The government can&#x27;t even send themselves email without it going through Microsoft, a company based in a country (USA) that wants to take over Canada. Insanity.
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gmuslera3 个月前
Since now? It was safe before, as in what is happening now was totally impossible before, and somewhat it happens anyway? Do they started to care about making backups after they lost data?<p>Risk is not about &quot;something happened, so it may happen again&quot;, but if something bad can happen, if it is possible, and maybe weight it as probable or not. Black swans exists, and if you bet everything on that they not, you may lose everything.<p>And the process of moving government and societies to some controlled by a foreign power cloud takes time to get in, and to get out. And you can&#x27;t tell that something bad was being done while showing a smiling face.<p>It is not something coming out of the blue. There was strong signals of intervention back to the start of internet, and a more or less official confirmation of what was happening in the shadow with Snowden&#x27;s revelations. But somewhat is now when that is perceived as a risk.
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cuuupid3 个月前
One oft forgotten thing is that the US government clouds rated for IL5&#x2F;6 are secluded on SIPRnet and JWICS. These are totally separate networks with CDS’s being the only way to go from one net to the other.<p>In practice this means the US Government remains in control of the network backing their cloud. ITAR regulations make it treasonous to have foreign eyes on these clouds. Foreign governments are not afforded any of those protections when sitting on US clouds.<p>Even among FVEY, there are designations for data relative to member states and information is not as free flowing on JWICS as one might assume. It is more like a controlled stream than a raging river
graemep3 个月前
Its never been a good idea. I do not think non-EU European countries can rely on EU cloud, not can EU countries can necessarily rely on each other.<p>The only effect the distrust of the current US government will have is a few articles. It expensive and difficult for this to be sufficient incentive to change anything.<p>We should probably grateful they have not put it all on Chinese clouds.
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jmclnx3 个月前
I guess &quot;Make America Great&quot; may spawn a big Cloud Industry in Europe. If I was in Europe, I would never use any US Tech products.<p>Maybe Linux will end up making big inroads in Europe, replacing Windows and MicroSoft Office and Office 365 along with Google Docs.
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Mossy93 个月前
As someone who has (reluctantly) been advocating and pushing our org to move stuff over to Azure, this is going to get interesting as tomorrow I&#x27;ll start pushing the cart to the other direction. I never wanted to go to the cloud a a goal itself, but wished for a more modern infra to improve processes and security, which we surely now can achieve onprem as well.<p>Luckily there&#x27;s always been scepticism and challenges with tightening data security regulations, so maybe people will mostly be relieved if we need to turn around on this.<p>Anyway, it will surely be an interesting discussion on Monday...
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bloopernova3 个月前
I&#x27;m in the process of moving my various google data onto Hetzner storage share[1]. It&#x27;s a Nextcloud instance with 5TB of storage for $16&#x2F;month. My wife and I each have a normal user, we can share stuff just as well as before, and we can install things like a simple Kanban app, sync to our Android phones, etc etc.<p>So far it&#x27;s been great, I highly recommend it.<p>[1] <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.hetzner.com&#x2F;storage&#x2F;storage-share&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.hetzner.com&#x2F;storage&#x2F;storage-share&#x2F;</a>
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pphysch3 个月前
The PRC essentially pioneered the concept of digital sovereignty with the &quot;Great Firewall&quot; approach in the late 90s. It was famously ridiculed by Bill Clinton as a hopeless endeavour.<p>In the wake of 2014 and souring relations with the West, Russia also started looking more seriously at digital sovereignty. This was castigated as &quot;isolationism&quot; and an attack on the &quot;open Internet&quot;.<p>Now it&#x27;s nearing a household term among EU tech groups. Because this was never about democratic ideals, it is about power and control, especially in a volatile multipolar world.
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mraniki3 个月前
<a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;european-alternatives.eu&#x2F;alternatives-to" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;european-alternatives.eu&#x2F;alternatives-to</a>
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matt-p3 个月前
The main problem to my mind is that we have none. OVH are perhaps the only semi serious option and that&#x27;s super depressing.
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vasilipupkin3 个月前
US is an unreliable partner. EU needs to work on decoupling from it ASAP in every domain.
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this_user3 个月前
That has been obvious since 2013 at least.
arunabha3 个月前
There are obviously <i>strong</i> emotions on both sides regarding the actions of the first few weeks of the Trump administration. Whether you believe the goals are worthy or not, one must acknowledge that the manner in which all of this is being done is deeply disturbing.<p>Trump will be gone in a few years, one way or the other. However, the foundations that are being poured for legitimizing a strongman, authoritarian role for the executive and almost eliminating the role of the other two branches is deeply dangerous.<p>If you believe the goals are worthy enough that the ends justify the means, think of the worst president ever(in your opinion) and consider whether you&#x27;d want <i>them</i> to have the same power? Because politicians never let power go willingly. They will certainly point to Trump&#x27;s precedent as a means of legitimizing their actions.<p>My fervent hope is that our institutions are strong enough to weather this assault and that enough people make it clear to the administration that there are lines they are not willing to cross. Whether that happens remains to be seen.
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crazygringo3 个月前
That ship has sailed with technology in general.<p>Sure, it isn&#x27;t safe for EU governments to store data on US clouds.<p>It also isn&#x27;t safe for US governments to rely on chips made in Taiwan that China could invade. Or for TikTok to be a primary media source in the US.<p>The fact is, we&#x27;re an economically interconnected world at this point, in terms of software, in terms of hardware, and in terms of hardware supply chains.<p>And it&#x27;s hard to see it going backwards. Economic efficiency is a powerful force. It often seems like the solution has to be to try to implement as many safeguards as possible, rather than cut off sources of technology. But I don&#x27;t know... it&#x27;s an incredibly difficult question.
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Mailtemi3 个月前
In addition to Cloud, there is one more thing: Mobile. Banks. Parking lots. Shops. Europe should invest in a Linux phone OS with NFC and unified push notifications.
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seqizz3 个月前
I recently got a message on LinkedIn from an AWS headhunter for: &quot;Position for European Sovereign Cloud&quot;.<p>So I assume most of the mentioned issues will be irrelevant soon™. Because a) the convenience, b) lack of actual competitors.
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nonrandomstring3 个月前
I think &quot;international cyber-relations&quot; is something that&#x27;s more generally coming into mainstream attention [0], whereas it&#x27;s always been a bit muted and behind the scenes because people never questioned where the Internet <i>is</i>. Another factor moving attention back to geography is energy. We started caring about what &quot;the cloud&quot; costs the planet. The magic of &quot;The Cloud&#x2F;Internet&quot; was to make location disappear. Now, <i>who</i> has your data is an issue again. Clearly the Danes are not on BFF terms with US at the moment. Here in the UK our problem is GCHQ using a lot of AWS. I&#x27;ve no doubt current US politics will lead to big changes in how computing and storage is structured. Maybe we&#x27;ll get some good new protocols and practices (I&#x27;m thinking of real massively distributed systems) out of this which make things more resilient and less parochial for everyone.<p>[0] <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;cybershow.uk&#x2F;episodes.php?id=31" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;cybershow.uk&#x2F;episodes.php?id=31</a>
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bedatadriven3 个月前
I&#x27;ve been looking at this a lot, for ourselves (multitenant saas app running on gcp) and for our customers, who are starting to be curious about something between fully self-managed (too costly) and centralized&#x2F;multi-tenant&#x2F;american cloud.<p>One thing that strikes me is the relationship with architecture. A monolithic, vertically scaled app can run ANYWHERE where I can rent a VM, whether in Norway with Upcloud or on a VPS in Kenya. It&#x27;s only when you start stitching together managed DBs with autoscaled instance pools etc that vendor lock in begins.<p>All of these nice toys make our service highly available. But while the overall risk is lower, it is far more correlated between customers. If our service would go down because of a political event, it would go down for all our customers at once.<p>What about a control plane that manages a fleet of per-customer VMs across an array of cloud providers? Has anyone ever tried this?
shirro3 个月前
It is a rarity to see any organization that self hosts email or uses a domestic provider any more. It is all foreign controlled now (specifically Microsoft). It should be examined by regulators everywhere both as a monopoly and a sovereign threat. The move to US services started long before the current political situation and will still be a threat to sovereignty long after the current US exec is gone. The frustrating thing is email services like many cloud services are highly substitutable and can easily be built on open source infrastructure.
century193 个月前
I have interviewed Turkish people that did not have Cloud experience as their large companies (e.g. banks) were not allowed to use US cloud services. Seems like that was wise now.
snickerbockers3 个月前
Did none of these people read Machiavelli? Relying too much on foreign governments, especially &quot;friendly&quot; imperialists is never safe because it gives them a degree of control over you. That&#x27;s a problem no matter who is in charge. If you slept through the PRISM scandal and are only regretting your failure to take action because you don&#x27;t like the guy who just won an election, then you&#x27;re beyond salvation.<p>At the very minimum you should be encrypting all data before you transmit it to machines you don&#x27;t physically control, but even that&#x27;s not necessarily good enough because it still gives them the ability to withhold that data from you. And that&#x27;s to speak nothing of some hypothetical future technology that may be able to defeat your encryption entirely.
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markus_zhang3 个月前
EU should build their own cloud services. I mean it&#x27;s not rocket science, but I don&#x27;t know anything in EU that can compete with the big three.
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morkalork3 个月前
Time for Ericsson to resurrect their phone division?
ekianjo3 个月前
It was never safe in the first place and only a fool could be convinced of that. Keep your data locally as much as you can.
JimBlackwood3 个月前
As a DevOps’er in the EU, how would I capitalize on this?<p>I’ve only ever done bare metal and have been lucky all of my employers hated the idea of AWS&#x2F;Azure&#x2F;GCP. So I feel like I’m quite well positioned to start helping companies move to bare metal alternatives.<p>Do I start freelancing, or do I try for an AWS alternative?
kakoni3 个月前
Ukraine moved their governmental data into AWS in the start of war [1].<p>[1] <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;d1.awsstatic.com&#x2F;institute&#x2F;AWS-Institute-Accelerate-public-service-transformation-4-Security-Ukraine.pdf" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;d1.awsstatic.com&#x2F;institute&#x2F;AWS-Institute-Accelerate-...</a>
sirjaz3 个月前
All government systems should be on-prem, and secured by proper personnel. None of the data should be in a cloud providers hands, even by their own country&#x27;s providers. There needs to be a separation between business and government infrastructure.
busterarm3 个月前
Schneider Electric, a French company (owners of APC), absolutely dominates the datacenter infrastructure market at somewhere over 1&#x2F;3 (probably closer to 1&#x2F;2) of overall TAM.<p>EU companies many not be storing the data but they&#x27;re certainly in the &quot;making shovels&quot; business. And that&#x27;s kind of the deal. France quietly takes a huge percentage of revenue without most companies being the wiser.<p>If EU companies start moving their infrastructure elsewhere, I&#x27;m sure that American datacenter&#x2F;cloud companies will reconsider who they buy their racks, PDUs, etc, from.
belter3 个月前
European alternatives for digital products: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;european-alternatives.eu&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;european-alternatives.eu&#x2F;</a><p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.scaleway.com&#x2F;en&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.scaleway.com&#x2F;en&#x2F;</a><p>EuroStack: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;euro-stack.eu&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;euro-stack.eu&#x2F;</a><p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.ceps.eu&#x2F;a-bold-proposal-to-build-the-eurostack-because-doing-nothing-isnt-an-option-anymore&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.ceps.eu&#x2F;a-bold-proposal-to-build-the-eurostack-b...</a>
bittermandel3 个月前
There&#x27;s quite a lot going on over the last year or two to actually build a real cloud in Europe, which is basically nott just dedis&#x2F;VMs like on Hetzner or OVH. Take a look at Clever Cloud or Molnett!
nprateem3 个月前
Lots of people seem to think this is only about data. The real risk is if trump says &quot;ok, switch off the clouds for Europe&quot;<p>Europe has no choice but to create its own subsidised cloud and mandate its use.
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hnburnsy3 个月前
Ironically, just saw this posted to HN...<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.reuters.com&#x2F;technology&#x2F;dutch-software-firm-bird-leave-europe-due-onerous-regulations-ai-era-says-ceo-2025-02-24&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.reuters.com&#x2F;technology&#x2F;dutch-software-firm-bird-...</a><p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=43169620">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=43169620</a>
niemandhier3 个月前
European cloud providers can only exist in niches at the moment: - cheap but unreliable -&gt; hetzner - integrated into the DFN -&gt; gwdg - and so on<p>The market is captured by us companies. I doubt that this will change.<p>The reason is simply that the the number of clients that care for the problems described is small compared to the total market. If you run a company that caters to these clients, you will cater to a small market with special requirements.<p>Companies like that tend to be pricy and hence won’t take market share from Americans.
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siliconc0w3 个月前
You have as much sovereignty over a foreign-run cloud as you do over a Tesla or an Iphone. AWS or Google isn&#x27;t going to give you the source to their software, and even if it did you don&#x27;t have the engineering resources to review even a snapshot much less review it at the velocity it changes (and even if you wanted to try you&#x27;d need to hire the engineers away from the US tech companies).
franczesko3 个月前
It is also supporting companies openly admitting to run projects for the US army and Israel (project Nimbus). This alone is already enough.
serial_dev3 个月前
It is <i>no longer</i> safe? Like it was safe a month ago? It was safe with Biden, Obama or Bush as presidents?<p>It baffles me how people look at other administrations through rose colored glasses and pretend that the problem started since Trump took over and Musk is working on this DOGE stunt. The swamp has always been there.<p>It <i>was never</i> safe, and <i>never will be</i>, no matter who is the president and how outrageous some of their actions are.<p>This article didn’t need the picture of “Trump is signing things”. This article cannot be taken seriously because of that, and it’s so frustrating because otherwise it made good points.
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epolanski3 个月前
Few of my clients have been very nervous about this, and I know we&#x27;re trying to ditch several US offerings with alternatives.<p>Microsoft is one of the hardest to get rid off, as it traverse the business from teams to SharePoint to azure dev ops and GitHub.<p>But when it comes to running systems themselves, there&#x27;s valid European alternatives.
devsda3 个月前
Hopefully, this push will stop the trend of calling countries trying to legislate data residency and privacy laws to keep their citizens data out of foreign prying eyes as authoritarian and painting them as threats balkanizing the free internet.<p>Wishful thinking? may be, because the world isn&#x27;t and doesn&#x27;t have to be fair.
bbqfog3 个月前
Every government and big company spies on you. If you don&#x27;t host your own hardware, you should expect that. If you do host your own hardware, you&#x27;re still vulnerable to things like Mossad spyware. None of this is new, and Europe is as guilty if not <i>more</i> guilty than anyone at this state of affairs.
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Sparkyte3 个月前
It&#x27;s true that relying solely on a cloud ecosystem without continuous protections isn&#x27;t safe. That&#x27;s why many government agencies should consider what I classify as a co-location strategy. By implementing this approach, agencies can use private tunneling applications with encryption and APIs to securely fetch non-sensitive information.<p>The cloud provider—such as AWS—can still be used for application hosting, but a private network should be established between the cloud environment and the co-location facility.<p>Why is this beneficial?<p>In a cloud environment, public ingress can be cut off instantly if needed, minimizing exposure.<p>Applications can be designed to serve most (or all) of their data through regional gateways connected to the co-location.<p>By placing co-location facilities close to critical data sources, latency is reduced while ensuring data remains protected and accessible within a secure network.<p>This approach allows organizations to balance cloud scalability with enhanced security, ensuring critical data remains under strict control while applications remain flexible and resilient.
sylware3 个月前
How to say this... it was not in the first place. And it is not specific to the US, it is the external cloud operator which is the issue.<p>It is a very complex matter. Roughly speaking, if you rely a lot on information systems, in the end you are own by the real operators of those information systems.
serf3 个月前
Let me preface this by saying : I don&#x27;t really like Trump, by why are people suddenly listening to his self-ascribed titles?<p>In 2016 he was the &#x27;King of Debt&#x27; , a title he ascribed while talking about the debts he inherited from the previous administration, no one thought to start worrying about the start of a new monarchy then -- why now? because he&#x27;s faster and looser with exec orders? hopefully everyone remembers &#x27;king Bush Jr.&#x27; then.<p>Personally I think it&#x27;s kind of hilarious to watch; on one hand you have mega-corps moving away from places TO America so that they can facilitate E2E, while simultaneously the persona-in-charge at the moment is driving people to any of the countries that have a long history of demanding keys and throwing a fit when denied.<p>Unless of course this article is about moving our data and software development to the Slovenia .. but it&#x27;s not.<p>I think it&#x27;s great to work towards not being beholden by other countries actions, but it should&#x27;ve had effort towards it before a bad-actor nudged everyone awake; not <i>during</i> the crisis. It shouldn&#x27;t have taken Trump to remind everyone that nationalization of important goods is sound strategy.
rsync3 个月前
Just a reminder…<p>There <i>are</i> cloud infras (“clouds”) that are wholly independent of the large, entrenched, politically connected providers like Amazon and Microsoft.<p>We think of this as a monoculture wherein every single thing is somehow built on top of AWS. That’s not true.
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pacifika3 个月前
What’s the alternative to ICANN?
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milesward3 个月前
I&#x27;d guess a reasonable start at delivering near-equivalent capabilities, capacity, and reliability from a standing start today, in just Europe, to be about €50b. The shopping list isn&#x27;t all that tough. Who wants to pony up?
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openplatypus3 个月前
We are ready. Whole built infrastructure on EU or European (Swiss) cloud. And I mean all. Server, customer data, but also support infra, email, documents, etc.<p>We build Wide Angle Analytics ground up outside of US systems.
aerhardt3 个月前
Cloud will continue to evolve massively with AI, as vendors offer more specialized infra and software abstractions, but the salient point is that in Europe we haven&#x27;t even been able to build the first 10% of what providers like Amazon, Microsoft or Google offer. Hetzner was only &quot;considering&quot; a managed Postgres offering, last time I checked, ffs...<p>My take is that capital in Europe is (a) way too risk-averse and (b) fragmented across many European countries... As much as I&#x27;ve always sympathized with the EU, &quot;Europe&quot; as a single entity is a fucking lie, an illusion in our collective minds.<p>Try building a business in Spain, and then expanding to France. Yes, you have free movement of capital and labor to help you - which is a massive foundation - but after that all you&#x27;ll find is red tape and difficulties emanating from the differences in culture and language.<p>Similarly, it seems impossible to privately amass the amount of capital needed for an investment such as what is needed to &quot;make the first 10% of what AWS offers&quot;.<p>The only alternative is through continent-wide industrial policy, Draghi style[1]. More power to the bureaucrats in Brussels, and more taxes than we&#x27;re already paying - and we&#x27;re fucking suffocating already down here. No thanks!<p>This is why the future looks dire. My only hope is that maybe with AI software development becomes cheaper and we can all build more services in-house. But please someone give us at least the first 10-20% most useful cloud abstractions. I wouldn&#x27;t want to waste even the compute-time of my AI engineers in building a resilient managed Postgres.<p>[1] <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Draghi_report" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Draghi_report</a>
827a3 个月前
The UK government just demanded Apple to disable Advanced Data Protection, globally, in order to backdoor the iPhone; and Apple has at least compiled with it for UK users; but no, for sure, its the US Clouds that are unsafe, not because of specific laws or executive orders, but just... vibes. &quot;The vibes are off, we&#x27;re done&quot; get real.<p>Romania just annulled a democratic election because of supposed interference from Russia. <i>Some</i> would say that by doing so Russia won anyway, but democracy doesn&#x27;t seem to be a priority for some European countries. But, sure: Its the United States that presents the greatest danger.
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raverbashing3 个月前
I think the biggest impediment here is binary thinking, which permeates a lot of this dialog<p>Sure, I agree with the article. Sure, the EU is way behind here in implementation, and the privacy stuff takes (IMHO) a bit of an absolutist position. But then we ask ourselves, how many people do actually turn down cookie banners (well I do, but still)<p>As a start, not even the US gov trusts their vendors, that&#x27;s why there&#x27;s FedRamp and such. It&#x27;s a detailed procedural and deep certification.<p>Is it safe to have your stuff in a US cloud vendor? Well, which stuff? Is it safe to have it in a server under your desk? Probably less safe in the end<p>Which countries have actual specialists in securing data? (hey didn&#x27;t the USDS just get shut down?) Which countries actually implement those security guidelines? (Or just general best practices?)<p>tl;dr: SNAFU
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seydor3 个月前
The US army and NATO where the first global cloud services
_blk3 个月前
I&#x27;m not convinced that the answer is renting rackspace at the local MS datacenter..<p>Now please don&#x27;t use that as an excuse to get on alibaba&#x27;s rack.
meltyness2 个月前
That&#x27;s fine, cloud was a flawed principle to begin with.
sunnybeetroot3 个月前
On the topic of this, what is the best platform similar to Digital Ocean App Platform that isn’t run by a US company?
submeta3 个月前
Trump is just openly saying what the previous governments have covertly been doing: Spying on their allies and enemies alike. Since the Snowden revelations we know that the US is spying on everyone. Not just citizens, but governments, allied politicians, just everyone. After the revelations there was a moment of shock in Europe. But eventually newspapers and magazines wrote less and less about it. The reality is: There‘s five eyes and Israel, and then there’s the rest of the world. And the world should start distancing itself from these malicious actors.
raincom3 个月前
It is NEVER &quot;safe to move for any government and secrets to US clouds&quot;, unless you want to be spied up on.
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pcj-github3 个月前
It&#x27;s not just US clouds, all USA brands are toxic now. Buy elsewhere so our economy collapses. Seriously. You&#x27;re doing us a favor. We need something drastic to wake up the 77M brain-dead people here that voted for this monstrosity.
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aravindputrevu3 个月前
People have always thoightabputitand said no to cloud. Especially those folks who are non-native tech businesses
quotemstr3 个月前
This is rich considering the UK just a few weeks ago jawboning Apple into making user data visible to the state.
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brundolf3 个月前
I wonder if growing distrust in the american cloud will benefit companies like Oxide in coming years
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whimsicalism3 个月前
I worry about the rising tides of nationalism&#x2F;anti-globalism both in the US and in Europe. I view things like this as accelerating the trend, not &#x27;resist&#x27;ing it.
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zombiwoof3 个月前
Anything that fucks Bezos and Ellison is a good thing . There’s your argument
breadwinner3 个月前
Is it safe to store data in Germany, given the strong showing of AfD in the election? They are now in second place, and who knows what will happen in the next 5 years!<p>AfD is pro-Russia and pro-Trump: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;AfD_pro-Russia_movement" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;AfD_pro-Russia_movement</a>
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masijo3 个月前
As a third worlder, this is hilarious. I&#x27;m sorry but I can&#x27;t help but laugh at the panic some people are manifesting over the US no longer being the world police and involving itself militarily in another continent.<p>I don&#x27;t like Trump, I really don&#x27;t, but I hope he continues with this. Sadly he probably won&#x27;t do the same with Israel though.
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amelius3 个月前
This is going to hurt as we will all have to hand in our iPhones then.
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tgsovlerkhgsel3 个月前
The article says &quot;we can’t be bothered to get used to a different word processor&quot; and links to LibreOffice, but in my experience, it&#x27;s not about &quot;getting used to&quot; - it&#x27;s simply that the UX of LibreOffice is absolutely atrocious.<p>The UX is extremely overloaded with features with little organization or structure, making it hard to find the few features you actually need, and every simple thing requires 3x as many clicks as with other products.<p>I tried making slides with LibreOffice, and even though I don&#x27;t need any of the collaboration features and would prefer to work locally, I ended up <i>deleting my entire presentation and just starting over from scratch with Google Slides</i>, because that was easier than trying to do anything in LibreOffice.
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pyrale3 个月前
&gt; the legal basis for sharing personal data with American companies is dead since Donald Trump has neutered the special court that would make such transfers legal.<p>It was always dead, or rather, it&#x27;s in a shrodinger&#x27;s state where the EU comission puts bullshit in a box, and companies pretend it&#x27;s fine until the CJEU opens the box and acknowledge that it is, in fact, bullshit. It&#x27;s happened multiple times already.<p>Aside from that small quip, the article is, obviously, right. Any sane European would count their fingers after a handshake with this administration. Expecting this particular agreement to hold is madness.
jari_mustonen3 个月前
This has been common sense for a long time.<p>It&#x27;s funny that people only raise this issue because of Donald Trump, whom the article refers to as &quot;King,&quot; no less. The previous administration&#x27;s green-lighting of the largest-ever industrial sabotage against Europe did not raise an eyebrow, but NBC News, a political opponent of Trump, claiming that Trump is &quot;branding himself as a monarch&quot; does the trick.<p>Oh well, whatever it takes.
xqcgrek23 个月前
The US should stop subsidizing the EU. It&#x27;s clear Europe has nothing to offer the US, economically or geopolitically.
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pessimizer3 个月前
On Trump&#x27;s part this is probably just part of a public trade negotiation, so it&#x27;s true; Europe <i>should</i> be hosting its own data and its own data processing. They just <i>won&#x27;t</i> because it means a lot of short term pain for extremely dubious long term gain.<p>The PCLOB is obviously theater that gives Europe an excuse to pretend that it has an independent data policy focused on protecting Europeans, because:<p>1) The US will go through European data if it wants, and happily and quietly break its own laws to do it, board or no board.<p>2) Europeans want even heavier surveillance of European data than the US does.<p>3) I&#x27;m sure Europe is happy to use the US to get around its own privacy laws.<p>The reason Trump is breaking the board is because that will by law create a <i>necessity</i> for Europeans to move data out of the US, which again would be a nightmare of dubious benefit. <i>In return</i> for not breaking the board, Trump will ask for unrelated concessions that are a lot less expensive than that. Europe will have choices to make.<p>Privacywise, the US will have access to European data no matter where it is stored, no matter what it needs to do to get that access. It has nothing to lose on that front, only the income (which is imagine is not huge.) But without that board, Europeans have to choose between either onshoring or leaving the data in the US even with no working deal in place (and ending the elaborate pr charade that they care about the <i>privacy</i> of Europeans.) That board is a gift to Europe.
waihtis3 个月前
Meanwhile author makes zero comment on UK encryption nonsense, or the mad EU drive towards absolute information control.<p>Its just another case of rocket + orange man bad
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casey23 个月前
And European countries are by and large such lumbering behemoths of tradition and regulation that by the time they build up enough will to pump the breaks on these transfers Trump will have already left office and the EU would be split up by Russia and the US.<p>4D chess
ein0p3 个月前
It never was safe in the first place. Storing sensitive data in a locale under the jurisdiction where it can be freely accessed without your knowledge has always been idiotic. That&#x27;s why all proper, sovereign countries demand that their data, and that of their citizens, is stored in datacenters within their national borders.
blackeyeblitzar3 个月前
This article is not a reasonable take on the situation. It is saying America isn’t a “reliable partner”. What does that mean? Demanding that NATO countries pay their fair share instead of free loading, is now not being a reliable partner? If anything it’s the other way around, considering the US has funded Europe’s defense. America is still the best partner for Europe and it makes more sense for the two to rely on each other than to waste resources while China - an actual dangerous dictatorship - continues to rise.<p>It’s also odd to paint Trump as “dictatorial” given that European leaders constantly look for ways to control or punish free speech, or for ways to suppress election results they don’t like. Look at the coup in Ukraine in 2014, the actions taken after it, or the proposal to ban AfD in Germany, or the effort to reverse the Romanian election. It’s EU leadership that has become authoritarian.
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billy99k3 个月前
It wasn&#x27;t safe when rogue engineers at Amazon colluded with the US government to take down Parler simply because they didn&#x27;t like the politics they supported.<p>It wasn&#x27;t safe when the US government worked with Twitter and Facebook to silence the opposing view points about Covid Vaccine injuries and lied to us constantly about the effectiveness.<p>There are children to this day that can&#x27;t get heart transplants in the US because they don&#x27;t have the Covid vaccine, which only 2% of American children have taken.<p>I know lots of people that took the J&amp;J vaccine and it&#x27;s been taken off the market due to deadly blood clots. Doctors mentioning this at the time were silenced and many lost their jobs.<p>When I see more people in the tech community talking about the authoritarian left that nearly destroyed our freedoms over the last 4 years, I might start listening to you about your concerns about our current state of politics.
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buyucu3 个月前
I suspect that Trump will have a very negative impact on US tech companies.
Clubber3 个月前
The cloud cometh and the cloud slowly fades away.
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ReptileMan3 个月前
It never was
zhengiszen3 个月前
Sovereign nations... Europe is not sadly
jmward013 个月前
There are two questions here: Should gov&#x2F;company&#x2F;actual human use x, y or z from the US and HOW can they avoid it? I personally don&#x27;t see a lot of strong answers to the &#x27;how&#x27; question right now. At a basic level I think this is because we don&#x27;t have a clear, coherent &#x27;cloud OS&#x27; that makes it easy to build alternative offerings.<p>I run proxmox and try to host some things locally but the server offerings aren&#x27;t quite there yet. What would be amazing would be for me to be able to truly host my own cloud so that I could share a doc with someone and the editor was hosted by my servers and safely sandboxed. It would be extraordinary if I could get my phone to offload storage to my personal cloud in place of iCloud and this was as easy as pointing to my personal cloud instead if being, at best, still a patchwork.<p>Things like portainer, podman, proxmox, etc are putting different pieces together but they are missing the crucial ingredients of exposing themselves to the internet safely and easily and being the foundation that my personal OS can actually easily run on. This split between device OS and cloud OS is something that hasn&#x27;t yet really happened and it is holding us back from creating a viable alternative ecosystem to commercial offerings. I think the things missing from current offerings like proxmox are:<p>1) The cloud OS of the future needs to expose VPNs and control domains as first class citizens so that my devices can join it securely and natively. These resources are the hard-drives and network cards of a cloud OS but they are treated like apps in current offerings. 2) It needs to integrate with auth in ways that allow me to &#x27;share&#x27; a doc from my personal cloud just as easily as google does and allow others to connect in secure, controlled ways. There isn&#x27;t a point to opening up to the internet if you can&#x27;t allow others to connect safely. 3) It needs to integrate with other clouds and provide native ways to migrate data and services between your personal cloud and other clouds. 4) It needs to seamlessly expand from user level cloud to enterprise and beyond. This is the &#x27;Developers developers developers&#x27; moment. If I can develop in my local cloud things that I can deploy to a real enterprise could then I will build a lot of things even if they don&#x27;t go to the enterprise.<p>I think building the route to &#x27;how&#x27; is the important question here. You can&#x27;t just legislate &#x27;use the alternative&#x27; if the alternative doesn&#x27;t exist. So what is the route here? How do we get to a point where it is actually possible to choose a different cloud? I think there are a couple ways here but a core component is likely a split in linux to start a cloud native install path. Basically, when you install on a machine it always installs as a container running on a hypervisor&#x2F;cloud OS so the machine joins&#x2F;starts a cloud OS install first and then the user OS installs are virtualized on top from the start. Basically, bare-metal should belong exclusively to the cloud OS. I think this likely would create the initial split needed to focus efforts on developing the cloud OS separate from the user OS and possibly start us down a path where the ecosystem exists to enable people to hop off of US cloud providers. As a side benefit though it would make migrating to new hardware way easier since I could likely just migrate my virtualized environment after joining it to the cloud OS the old machine is hosted on.
jart3 个月前
<a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;justine.lol&#x2F;tmp&#x2F;trump.jpg" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;justine.lol&#x2F;tmp&#x2F;trump.jpg</a>
templeOSdotcom3 个月前
This sort of thing makes me groan. Oh, now it is a problem. It wasn&#x27;t an issue with Obama and Biden but it suddenly is an issue that chester cheeto is running the show.<p>It is no secret to anyone that Google, Reddit, Meta, Microsoft, Intel, Twitter and Amazon work closely with the three letter agencies in the US.
cudgy3 个月前
Why has it taken this author so long to finally realize this? It was never “safe” to have government data managed and stored in another country.<p>Sounds more like they just don’t like the current administration in the United States. This dislike somehow has woken them up to the reality that storing their sensitive data in another country was never a good idea.
GMoromisato3 个月前
The world has changed, but the EU acts like the solutions that used to work will continue to work in the future. Neither regulating limits to AI nor waiting for Trump&#x27;s term to end will solve the underlying problem.<p>First, Trump&#x27;s rise in the US is not an isolated phenomenon. Almost every country in Europe has its own right-wing, anti-globalization, pro-nativist parties, and in almost all countries their power has grown. Globalization decreased economic friction, but not evenly--there were winners and losers. The winners were the professional class who could sell their services to a global market. The losers were the labor class who saw their jobs outsourced and who had to pay more to the professionals they needed (doctors, teachers, etc.). The result was Trump.<p>US policies will moderate as Trump&#x27;s failures pile up, but we&#x27;re never going back to the globalist, &quot;citizens of the world&quot; consensus of the 2000s.<p>Second, (and ironically), globalization has given leverage to high-agency individuals to amass more power than previously possible. Billionaires are exerting influence (Musk, obviously, but also Gates, Bezos, Marc Benioff, Bloomberg, Koch brothers, etc.) not just because they have money, but because money can influence more people through globalized businesses. Social media is the obvious vector, but even a business like Starbucks has influence by how they set labor trends.<p>Moreover, authoritarians like Putin are only constrained by hard power, not by international institutions. And ironically, the whole point of international institutions is to decrease investment in hard power! The result is that people like Putin can do whatever they want.<p>It is obvious that globalization, as currently structured, has failed. But no one (to my mind) has yet proposed a better model. The left wants to keep globalization and tinker around the edges; the right wants to tear it all down and retreat to autarchy.<p>Eventually, the world will enter a more stable equilibrium. Whoever can see that new equilibrium can prepare for it or even influence how it comes about. Anyone got any ideas?
lynx973 个月前
I never was. Claiming otherwise is blatant political propaganda.
deadbabe3 个月前
With the backlash European companies are making toward US tech, can US companies now rip up their GDPR policies in return and stop with these cookie banners everywhere?
amai3 个月前
See also<p>- <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;github.com&#x2F;asmaier&#x2F;awesome-gdpr-services">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;github.com&#x2F;asmaier&#x2F;awesome-gdpr-services</a><p>- <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;european-alternatives.eu&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;european-alternatives.eu&#x2F;</a><p>- <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;tycrek.github.io&#x2F;degoogle&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;tycrek.github.io&#x2F;degoogle&#x2F;</a>
amai3 个月前
People will only act on that, if Elon Musk buys Microsoft. But then it is too late.
docmars3 个月前
I see what this guy is saying, but one important thing this article misses entirely is: Trump was elected with overwhelming support, and is carrying out the will of the people. I think people should stop pretending that his decisions weren&#x27;t commissioned, and deluding themselves into believing that he&#x27;s acting on his sole authority somehow.
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isaacremuant3 个月前
And yet, the European governments (EU or not) are usually extremely happy with their own government overreach &quot;to combat the usual demons&quot; (drugs, terrorism, protect children, etc) and now they&#x27;ve added &quot;misinformation&quot; as a way to combat political opposition of any kind with no oversight.<p>Living in Europe I&#x27;m more skeptical about OP who ends with &#x27;maga&#x2F;Elon musk&#x27; as if this was in any way partisan and I&#x27;m pretty sure OP would be in favour of certain tactics based on political alignment.<p>The trump derangement syndrome is very boring this time around. It just doesn&#x27;t land considering so many people &quot;fighting fascism&quot; were more than willing to &quot;put people in camps&quot; if they didn&#x27;t comply with anti constitutional and tyrannical covid policies for &quot;the greater good&quot;.<p>It&#x27;s good that people care about privacy but it&#x27;s better when they&#x27;re consistent and not just partisan hacks.
oldpersonintx3 个月前
you&#x27;ve had twenty years to build an EU-native alternative...what do you have to show us?<p>the EU has settled for using US tech but just taxing the success with fines
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DrNosferatu3 个月前
European Democracies should start a, new, NATO-like military Alliance on their own, but without Trump&#x27;s America.<p>(and without the notorious US-made military equipment kill-switches)<p>And while we&#x27;re at it, this time will be different: Instead of the membership criteria being anti-communism, it should be effective Liberal Democracy and Freedom from Exceptionalist Exemptions, namely from the International Rule of Law. So, to be part,<p>1. Compulsory ICC membership - hence no exceptionalistic US, and no exceptionalistic Israel.<p>2. No &quot;Illiberal Democracies&quot;: say, for example, composite of a minimum 0.67 score on the WJP Rule of Law Index and others: therefore no Orbanic Hungary, and no illiberal others like it. Poland, Slovakia, Italy: you better watch your ways if you want in.<p>3. Democratic backsliding removes you rights in the Alliance, and, can proportionally lead to outright expulsion.<p>Not one more new military equipment purchase from the US, (and dispreference for other non-qualifying nations procurement). Member nations should use their - substantial - industrial capacity to equip themselves with indigenous military materiel.<p>Hey, it would be actually great for their economy!<p>Initially European scope, but bridges to a broader global scope (or even a secondary sister-Alliance) with open-ended partnerships with Canada, Australia, New Zeland, Japan, South Korea, and yes: Taiwan.<p>US and&#x2F;or Israel want to join, if a more Democratic future selves? Simple: fully join the ICC, and meet the Alliance&#x27;s full criteria as every other member.<p>Same applies for prospective new members.
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ArtTimeInvestor3 个月前
Ok.<p>And how about making every citizen constantly carry an always-on device from the USA full of sensors and permanent internet access?<p>And how about basing all infrastructure on these devices, so that nothing works without them?<p>And how about not letting a software ecosystem flurish, so that when robots (cars, humanoid robots, weapons ...) take over, all of them will be controlled by US software?
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chriscjcj3 个月前
&gt; Not only is it a terrible idea given the kind of things &gt; the “King of America” keeps saying,<p>When attempting to formulate a persuasive argument, this isn&#x27;t a great place to start in my opinion. It&#x27;s perfectly acceptable to dislike Trump and his policies. If you do, then go ahead and state your reasons. He was elected by the people of his country and he&#x27;ll be done in four years&#x27; time. That&#x27;s not how kings generally function. Perhaps I&#x27;m throwing the baby out with the bathwater, but I don&#x27;t find myself too interested in reading the article after the inflammatory introductory TLDR.
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assimpleaspossi3 个月前
The only thing that changed is hearsay and inuendo which this post is based on.
mrits3 个月前
It&#x27;s interesting to me that the reaction of Europe is to start taking their security more seriously. While I&#x27;m never sure the though process of a certain individual I do know this was the point of the conservative party in the US
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n0id343 个月前
It&#x27;s like the world is slowly realising &quot;wait, why don&#x27;t we just become self-sufficient as much as we can&quot; which is what every country should be focusing on from the get go. No brainer. You never want the power switch in someone else&#x27;s hands.
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lazzlazzlazz3 个月前
Europe is going down an incredibly dark path. Political censorship, encryption bans, and absurd consumer &quot;protection&quot; laws (e.g., like those limiting AI rollouts) mean Europeans are becoming second class globally. The irony of this post is that <i>it is no longer safe for Europeans to rely on a European cloud</i>.
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