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AI is blurring the line between PMs and engineers?

53 点作者 razcle3 个月前

21 条评论

viccis3 个月前
I'm fortunate to work for a company with great PMs at the moment, but in the past, it's usually been the case that PMs blur the line between PMs and engineers by making us do their job for them. That they can use AI to appear productive is not a promising development.
ryandvm3 个月前
Forget PMs and engineers, the discussion I want to see happening is just how much more easily an LLM could replace the average CEO...
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Aurornis3 个月前
&gt; “No, no,” she said. “Engineers aren’t allowed to edit the prompts. It’s only the PMs and domain experts who do prompt engineering. They do it in a custom UI, and then the prompts are committed to the codebase.”<p>This feels like a desperate power grab.<p>Why can’t engineers be involved with the prompts? Why aren’t they allowed to do things like automated A&#x2F;B testing or to implement ideas from papers they’ve read?<p>Banning engineers from prompts altogether feels extremely arbitrary. If this was a healthy relationship they’d at least say the engineers and PMs work together on prompts.<p>Banning them is just politics.
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diegof793 个月前
These company blog articles are usually for marketing. Humanloop develops software to assist with prompting during the development process, so the author’s conclusions reflect the company’s intentions more than an objective industry observation.<p>AI is transforming how we prototype and iterate, and products like v0 or Replit are scratching the surface. However, historically, low-code platforms lacked a good integration with complex development cycles. There were many attempts, but they either failed or shifted their focus: Microsoft Expression Blend had a brilliant concept of integrating early sketching and ideation with development, but the product ultimately died with Silverlight; Framer had an editor that allowed users to integrate React components with a design tool, but they repurposed their product into a CMS-oriented tool like Webflow; Builder.io is following a similar path. It seems that in today’s market, there is no clear fit for the RAD tools of the late 1990s. Maybe AI can change that and create the new equivalent to Visual Basic. The hardest part is the extra mile that goes from the prototype to something robust and complies with multiple quality attributes: scalability, performance, security, maintainability, and testability.
develoopest3 个月前
Wishing the best to my PM, who struggles to write a ticket title.
djohnston3 个月前
I’m SWE on a product and generally agree with this, at least for user-facing prompts. Once you’re walking an LLM thru OOXML it’s better done directly by ENG.<p>For tools, not clear how this works since as you adjust parameters and whatnot you’re also presumably changing the code downstream when you “execute the call”.<p>But probably both sides of this will be done by LLMs directly in the future. I rarely write or tune prompts by hand now.
corysama3 个月前
I&#x27;ve been watching several &quot;vibe coding&quot; vids on the youtubes. <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;x.com&#x2F;karpathy&#x2F;status&#x2F;1886192184808149383" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;x.com&#x2F;karpathy&#x2F;status&#x2F;1886192184808149383</a><p>Some of them are painful. Some are impressive. The projects are small. Sometimes pulling in powerful off-the-shelf modules. They are getting better fast.<p>As a greybeard software architect, my current annoyance is that I&#x27;m spending all day talking to people when I want to get some practice voice prompting code :P
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bufferoverflow3 个月前
PMs (generally) can&#x27;t tell if AI wrote bad code.
1970-01-013 个月前
A joke: Good PMs will do invisible work. Bad PMs are just invisible.
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ilrwbwrkhv3 个月前
i think the plan of folks like these is keep peddling agi, replacement, line blurring and make the money through secondaries for as long as possible till it all collapses like crypto.
marcusestes3 个月前
Absolutely agree with this observation. And I think it’s a great outcome.<p>The vibe coding Reddit (<a href="http:&#x2F;&#x2F;reddit.com&#x2F;r&#x2F;vibecoding" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;reddit.com&#x2F;r&#x2F;vibecoding</a>) already contains the full spectrum of “first time trying to code” to “just rolled my own custom GPT to optimize this.”
josefritzishere3 个月前
Even the words &quot;prompt engineering&quot; make my skin crawl. It goes not require specialized knowledge to input prompts. If this is the crux of the argument in favor of the utility of project management, it is doomed.<p>Personally I think AI will eat project management long before it eats software development.
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ryeguy_243 个月前
I mean...maybe. The title should be &quot;Engineers are not needed for prompting LLMs&quot;? Yes, LLMs can write code. But I don&#x27;t think they are at the level yet to build and maintain complex and high-stakes systems with a few prompts.
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the_duke3 个月前
Note what&#x27;s on the frontpage of the homepage:<p>&gt; LLMs break traditional software development<p>&gt; Develop your Prompts and Agents in code or UI<p>...<p>So of course the blog post is an ad, peddling what they want potential customers to think.<p>I don&#x27;t doubt that we&#x27;ll eventually come to a point where most code is written by AI, but that point is not at all where we are at right now, and for quite a while we&#x27;ll need developers to drive the development process.
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rvz3 个月前
Depends. If it is for writing documents, you really don&#x27;t need a lot of &#x27;technical writers&#x27;. For managing engineers? Honestly a competent staff engineer can replace 2 PMs.<p>For writing code with PMs replacing Engineers with AI assistants? Very unlikely, even if they try as soon as you get to the question on maintaining an existing codebase, this is where LLMs begin to hallucinate more and struggle.<p>The typical PM won&#x27;t know that they generated bad code. You still need an engineer to detect that.<p>This is a obvious bubble repeating like it&#x27;s 1999.
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user99999999993 个月前
The year is 2030, all work now consists of only human middle managers and ai. their rule is tyrannical.
christopherslee3 个月前
I&#x27;ve enjoyed, and been lucky to work at companies where engineers are focused on customer outcomes. I would also cite Hiten Shah&#x27;s engineering driven development: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.june.so&#x2F;blog&#x2F;the-rise-of-engineering-driven-development-edd">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.june.so&#x2F;blog&#x2F;the-rise-of-engineering-driven-deve...</a><p>At the end of the day, the stack is collapsing itself, and the lines are blurring because we want people to own the total outcome more often than throwing responsibilities over the wall to each other.<p>That doesn&#x27;t mean engineers are going to design, but they should know what a good design looks and feels like. That doesn&#x27;t mean designers or product should write code, but they should be able to engage in high level architecture discussion to understand the capabilities of their products.<p>I have not read it yet but there&#x27;s a book by David Epstein (not that one), &quot;Range: Why Generalists Triumph in a Specialized World&quot;. I&#x27;m interested because for the last 10 years I&#x27;ve thought of myself as a generalist but always thought companies were looking for specialists. I could show immense value when I got to those companies, but I don&#x27;t typically think companies are looking for generalist. They are looking for specialists to solve an acute problem.
alberth3 个月前
No mention of Data Scientists (which is neither PM or Eng), seems odd.
tombert3 个月前
These articles are a little annoying.<p>I love ChatGPT [1]. I use it all the time. I use it for coding, I use it to generate stuff like form letters, I use it for parsing out information from PDFs. Point is, I&#x27;m not a luddite with this stuff; I&#x27;m perfectly happy to play with and use new tech, including but not limited to AI.<p>Which makes me confident when I say this: Anyone who thinks that AI in its current state is &quot;blurring the line between PMs and Engineers&quot; doesn&#x27;t know what they are talking about. ChatGPT is definitely very <i>useful</i>, but it&#x27;s nowhere near a replacement for an engineer.<p>ChatGPT is really only useful if you already kind of know what you want. Like, if I asked it &quot;I have a table with the columns name (a string), age (an integer), location (string), can you write me an upsert statement for Postgres for the values &#x27;tom&#x27;, 34, &#x27;new york&#x27;?&quot;. This will likely give you exactly what you want, will give you the proper &quot;ON CONFLICT&quot; command, and it&#x27;s cool and useful.<p>If I ask it &quot;I want to put a value into a table. I also want to make sure that if there&#x27;s a value in there, we don&#x27;t just put the value in there, but instead we get the value, update it, and then put the new value back in&quot;, it&#x27;s not as guaranteed to be correct. It <i>might</i> give you the upsert command, but it also might fetch the value from the database, check if it exists, and if it doesn&#x27;t do an &quot;insert&quot; and if it does do an &quot;update&quot;, which is likely incorrect because you risk race conditions.<p>My point is, the first example required knowing what an upsert is, and how to word it in a technical and precise way.<p>It certainly doesn&#x27;t &quot;blur the line&quot; between PM and engineer for me. I have to pretty heavily modify and babysit its outputs, even when it is giving me useful stuff. You might be saying &quot;well that&#x27;s what a PM does!!&quot;, but not really; project managers aren&#x27;t typically involved in the technical minutia of a project in my experience, they&#x27;re not going to correct me for using the wrong kind of upsert.<p>These kinds of articles always seem to be operating on a theoretical &quot;what if AIs <i>could</i> do this??&quot; plane of existence.<p>[1] Deepseek is cool too, what I&#x27;m saying applies to that as well.<p>ETA:<p>Even if I wasn&#x27;t a fan, this article definitely shouldn&#x27;t have been flagged.
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user99999999993 个月前
ai replacing engineers is PM propaganda wet dream bs
hexator3 个月前
The title of this article seems out of touch with reality. This entire article is a thoughtless fluff-piece that reads more like an advertisement. It&#x27;s not fit for HN.
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