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Lawrence of Arabia, Paul Atreides, and the roots of Frank Herbert's Dune (2021)

282 点作者 softwaredoug2 个月前

28 条评论

alabastervlog2 个月前
When I finally got around to reading <i>Seven Pillars</i>, I wasn&#x27;t too far in before I was convinced Herbert had the book on his desk the whole time he was writing <i>Dune</i>. So many minor similarities, little scenes that don&#x27;t quite match up but if you <i>squint</i> they do. Even the arc toward eventually committing war crimes, while seeking some great end for the people he&#x27;s leading, feels like a connection. But also little stuff like the early travel scenes in <i>Pillars</i> reminded me of early scenes among the Caladanians(?) in <i>Dune</i>.<p>I think the part where I went &quot;OK yeah this was <i>the</i> reference when he was coming up with the core plot and character of Paul&quot; was when I came across the part where Lawrence comes up with his novel guerrilla war strategy: he&#x27;s sick, feverish, possibly dying, in a tent in the desert, tended by a few companions. When he comes out of it, he&#x27;s got his Path. It&#x27;s too perfect.<p>[edit] Incidentally, it&#x27;s not clear to me this author has a good picture of Lawrence&#x27;s background. Lines like this:<p>&gt; In terms of clothing, Lawrence comes to accept the Arab dress as “convenient in such a climate” and blends in with his Arab companions by wearing it instead of the British officer uniform.<p>make me think the author isn&#x27;t aware that Lawrence had already spent a lot of time in the Middle East (especially, IIRC, modern Syria—so, near Damascus) very shortly before the war broke out, and that was a big part of why he was recruited by British intelligence for the mission(s) in <i>Seven Pillars</i>. It was on an earlier, pre-war trip that he&#x27;d adopted Arab dress—unlike what&#x27;s suggested (if not quite stated) in the film Lawrence of Arabia, he was already quite familiar with and comfortable in it.
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corry2 个月前
I&#x27;m 100% onboard with the &#x27;Lawrence of Arabia inspired Dune&#x27; theory but I think one of the cleverest things Herbert did with Dune is to introduce a &#x27;visionary substance&#x27; (spice) into the otherwise austere Islamic-adjacent motif.<p>He not only shrouded the spice in ritual and religion (which isn&#x27;t THAT suprising considering many human societies used visionary substsances, and Herbert was a child of the 1960s psychedelic culture too) but also give it a central place in the economy and functioning of the empire.<p>What if a visionary substance was the real deal that gave you insight and precognition? What a rebel leader took full advantage of such a substance? What if that was combined with religious fervour?<p>Dune is basically space war + outsider Messiah + Islam + psychedelics
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bookofjoe2 个月前
I saw &quot;Lawrence of Arabia&quot; at the Riverside Theatre on Wisconsin Avenue in Milwaukee in 70mm in the summer of 1962, the year it was released. I was overwhelmed (&quot;blown away&quot; as a term of art didn&#x27;t exist back then but would be an apt description). I was SO thrilled when, after nearly two hours, the screen said &quot;There will now be an intermission.&quot; Never heard of such a thing back then for a movie!<p>I note that the film is now available for rent in 4k. I&#x27;m gonna take a flutter and watch it on Vision Pro.
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felipeerias2 个月前
The parallels with Lawrence are obvious, but I find that the character of Paul Atreides follows some older models as well.<p>Towards the end of the first book of Dune he has become an almost mythical figure, a Moses using his divine insight to lead his people to freedom, or a Mohammed throwing them into a global war of conquest.<p>That ambiguity is perhaps the book&#x27;s greatest achievement: Paul&#x27;s actions are only justifiable if the reader believes in him completely (he has really seen all possible futures and picked the best one) or not at all (he just wanted revenge and could not have foreseen the consequences).
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superkuh2 个月前
Samuel Butler&#x27;s 1872 &quot;Erewhon&quot; fiction book which features a society which banned all complex machines because of a prior machine intelligence uprising is the direct, and directly referenced, inspiration for the &quot;Butlerian Jihad&quot; in the Dune book series.
theturtletalks2 个月前
Frank Herbert said him self in an interview that Dune was inspired from Sabres of Paradise by Lesley Blanch and that book is the story of Imam Shamil of the north caucasus.
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throw48472852 个月前
Many writers of genre fiction rely on their audience having read fewer history books than they have. I saw people online calling George Lucas a prophet for depicting the decline of the Republic in the Prequels, but he really just read a couple of books about Ancient Rome. And dragons and zombies make the premise of &quot;what if the Mongols invaded during the War of the Roses&quot; a lot more exciting.<p>Originality is overrated though, so I don&#x27;t mind. One of my favorite science fiction novels, The Stars my Destination by Alfred Bester, is transparently based on The Count of Monte Cristo.
languagehacker2 个月前
A comment mentions it, but Sabres of Paradise is another key component to understanding Dune as a referential text as it pertains to imperialism and religious fervor as an insurrectionist response.
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btilly2 个月前
The article makes reference to Tim O&#x27;Reilly&#x27;s excellent <i>Frank Herbert</i>.<p>That book is well worth reading by anybody who wants to better understand Frank Herbert, and is available for free at <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.oreilly.com&#x2F;tim&#x2F;herbert&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.oreilly.com&#x2F;tim&#x2F;herbert&#x2F;</a>.
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softwaredoug2 个月前
There’s even a part at the beginning of Lawrence of Arabia film where he puts out a match with his fingers, and throughout, Lawrence proves his ability to overcome pain. Very reminiscent of the Gom Jabar.
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user9822 个月前
Superficially, there is a sequence in the film where Peter O&#x27;Toole&#x27;s very blue eyes appear to glow: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;youtu.be&#x2F;nBiZu5C6lCo?t=12219" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;youtu.be&#x2F;nBiZu5C6lCo?t=12219</a>
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karaterobot2 个月前
&gt; The 1962 film based on a romanticized version of Lawrence’s journey... rested on the idea of the ‘white savior,’ whose role was to lend a sympathetic ear to oppressed peoples and provide assistance to improve their lot in life.<p>I really think this is the wrong interpretation of the end of that movie.
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hayst4ck2 个月前
With recent events I’ve been thinking about Dune lately. Once you start to compare what happens in dune to what is happening now, it&#x27;s rather unpleasant.<p>Prescience allows for the complete domination of humanity, but to some degree we already working on pre-prescience. Privatized intelligence companies have grown as part of our corporate surveillance state. These companies, like palantir, act as “truthsayers,” divining the state of reality from incredible amounts of information for those with the money to buy it. America has companies that rival countries in terms of power, and these intelligence companies that service them can act as king maker and influence, subtly or directly, with some very giant levers.<p>The US government is closer to the Landsraad, each house is a corporation, each CEO a duke or baron.<p>Peter Thiel is likely the reverend mother architect of a recent messianic rise to power.<p>I am not 100% sure exactly what the Bene Gesserit were supposed to represent, but on a deep level I think they represent intelligence agencies like the CIA.<p>Social Media has a lot of overlap with “the voice.” With A&#x2F;B testing various groups with divisive messages, to see what divides most effectively, it creates a means of control. Nobody was commanded to show up on jan 6, but the “command” to do so was heard. This is very in line with frank Herbert’s idea of what the voice was. A&#x2F;B testing messages on humans at scale is like learning the voice.<p>We now have Cameras, RF Receivers (blue tooth&#x2F;driver&#x27;s license detection), phone backups, website logs, and a host of other surveillance all centralized, maybe not directly, into the hands of private intelligence. With all these sources of information we are getting closer and closer and closer to prescience. We are still limited by computing power to make sense of all the data, but the god emperor of dune was not. With the rise of AI, we now have the potential for a thinking&#x2F;processing agent with no sense of morality to be assigned to every single individual, in order to carry out the absolute crushing of any nascent dissent before it can become cohesive enough to threaten those in power.<p>We are dangerously close to uncheckable totalitarian rule. When our rulers do something we don&#x27;t like, they will laugh and say &quot;what are you going to do about it?&quot; Every potential weapon purchased will be fed into their &quot;prescient&quot; machine, so will every communication with another individual, and every use of transportation. When your personal AI agent determines you are at risk of &quot;doing something about it,&quot; an example will be made of you.
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sans_souse2 个月前
I have to ask does anyone know <i>why</i> the site asks &quot;Are you between 13 and 15 years old?&quot;<p>Rather odd both the question and the specificity.. Would this not be the same as asking; &quot;Are you 14 years old?&quot;<p>Not to mention I almost clicked &quot;Yes&quot; thinking it was asking the more common &quot;Are you at least this many years or older?&quot;
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keepamovin2 个月前
I&#x27;m convinced Herbert had some deep knowledge of psi phenomena. His descriptions of truthsayers reading people, timelines, race consciousness, and prescience are very similar to real experiences. His emphasis that it emerges through a combination of genetics and training of subtle awareness, plus the suggestion compounds could provide access to a state that could be sustained without them - also ring very true. The exploration of its paradoxes (destructiveness and utility of prophecy), and the contrast of those intuitive skills with the pure analytical ones of the mentat (or even of thinking machines) are also very deep. I think the idea that humanity&#x27;s future involves a deeper engagement with and interplay of all these forces is also super likely. Perhaps he was friends, through his naval service, with people in the UK&#x27;s version of Stargate (US psi and remote viewing programs). Surely there was such a program, tho I&#x27;m not aware of any releases of information about it.
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renjimen2 个月前
Lawrence of Arabia may be the influence of the character, but the Nabataeans, of Petra fame, are surely the main influence of the Fremen. (excuse the LLM summary)<p>Economic Foundation<p>- Nabataeans controlled lucrative frankincense and myrrh trade routes<p>- Fremen controlled the essential spice melange on Arrakis<p>- Both commodities were incredibly valuable and strategic resources<p>- Trade of these rare substances provided economic and political leverage<p>Desert Survival<p>- Both expertly adapted to harsh desert environments<p>- Developed advanced water conservation techniques<p>- Created hidden settlements (Fremen seeches&#x2F;Nabataean rock-carved cities like Petra)<p>Social Structure<p>- Egalitarian approach to gender roles<p>- Women in significant leadership positions<p>- Tribal hierarchies based on skill and contribution<p>- Strong communal survival ethos<p>Trade and Resistance<p>- Controlled strategic resources in challenging terrain<p>- Maintained independence through economic and military strength<p>- Used desert environment as defensive advantage<p>- Resisted external imperial powers<p>Technological Adaptation<p>- Innovative survival technologies<p>- Deep understanding of ecological context<p>- Specialized equipment for desert survival<p>- Advanced navigational and trading skills
ggm2 个月前
Other people have documented Herbert&#x27;s obsession with the californian ecology movement and dune re-establishment. I think he took things happening in small scale and used them as filler&#x2F;detail to a story he wanted to tell in large scale.
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twilo2 个月前
Mostly based on The Sabres of Paradise...<p>Paul is based on Shamyl 3rd Imam of Dagestan from that book
johnklos2 个月前
It&#x27;s an interesting article with some contrasts I hadn&#x27;t considered, but as a tangent, why does the site think it needs 200% CPU constantly, even when not scrolling, just to show me a wall of text?
danielskogly2 个月前
Interesting to see that Isaac Asimov&#x27;s Foundation isn&#x27;t mentioned anywhere. The Wikipedia-article says the following[0]<p>&gt; Tim O&#x27;Reilly suggests that Herbert also wrote Dune as a counterpoint to Isaac Asimov&#x27;s Foundation series<p>[0] <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Dune_(novel)#Asimov&#x27;s_Foundation" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Dune_(novel)#Asimov&#x27;s_Foundati...</a>
newsclues2 个月前
Lawrence in Arabia: War, Deceit, Imperial Folly and the Making of the Modern Middle East Book by Scott Anderson<p>One of my favourite books on the topic
cess112 个月前
Robert Evans did an introduction to the life and deeds of Lawrence a while back, which I thought was interesting.<p>First episode:<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.youtube.com&#x2F;watch?v=o77rpNge5Uw" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.youtube.com&#x2F;watch?v=o77rpNge5Uw</a>
WeylandYutani2 个月前
Lawrence of Arabia was also a story about how superpowers abuse people and use them as chess pieces stabbing them in the back. But at least the Saudis had the last laugh.
wdbm2 个月前
The trick, Muad&#x27;Dib, is not minding that it hurts.
mhh__2 个月前
I was surprised how much more subtle in many ways Lawrence of Arabia was compared to dune
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iamacyborg2 个月前
So 40k is Lawrence of Arabia, neat.
6stringronin2 个月前
The whole concept of Paul atreides seemed entirely orientalist, in Edward Said&#x27;s coinage of the term.
sunami-ai2 个月前
This showing up here at the same time articles about the push for tourism in Saudi Arabia showing on major news outlets.