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Where are all the self-directed learners?

71 点作者 ChaitanyaSai2 个月前

24 条评论

PeterStuer2 个月前
I don&#x27;t know about India, but having spent many years on university, first as a student, later as a research director and representative at all levels from the department to the university board, and the later as I watched my own children move through the process, I have seen dramatic changes in higher ed turning university ever more into highschool.<p>In the &#x27;old&#x27; days it was basically up yo you. Assignments during the academic year were few and far between. Each course resulted in an exam at the end of the year. How you passed that was up to you.<p>This meant you were modtly free gor 90% of your time to attend classes or not. You could use the university as a knowledge buffet attending interesting lectures outside of your own field of study, get straight into the specialization topics that were the real reason you were attracted to field in the first place (AI in my case which was a very niche subject in those days) instead of just slogging through the generalist foundation courses (80% math in those days, physics, economics and some CS).<p>These days students are bombarded with assignmments all year, with exams pepered throughout. This inflicts nearly full class attendance requirement and constant deadline pressures. Yes, it makes it so credit can be acquired piecemeal instead of pass&#x2F;failing in one massive shot, but it reduces autonomy to near 0.
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neilv2 个月前
A skim of the overall post has me sympathetic, but I almost closed the browser tab with the opening:<p>&gt; <i>Fewer than 100 filled a form with open-ended questions. About 15 went on to complete a reasonably simple real-world challenge. We are a nation with the cheapest internet and a billion internet users. Where are all the self-directed learners? The eclectic ekalavyas?</i><p>Apparently not jumping through corporate drone hoops, for a chance to talk with your company.<p>&gt; <i>And then to make it worse, our exam system is fundamentally broken. It’s like forcing Serena Williams and Magnus Carlsen (and Gukesh) to compete in 400m hurdles to figure out if they are fit for their respective sports.</i><p>Exactly.
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csomar2 个月前
So for the people who didn&#x27;t read the article, here are some of the form questions<p>&gt; What is your age?<p>&gt; HIRING CHALLENGE: Find our recenter browser plugin (it is open-source). Understand what it is for and suggest an interesting and personally useful feature you can add to it. Go through the code and share a brief note on how you would go about building this feature, and why. Note: Send us an email once you have thought this through, have put together the design doc, and are ready to start coding.<p>&gt; We don&#x27;t measure how many hours you are at the office. What matters is whether the work gets done. We are reasonably flexible with hours. Currently, we operate around a 10:00 AM - 6:00 PM work cycle. Some things you work on will require more hours and effort, sometimes intense, and some won&#x27;t. There may be a fair bit to pick up in your early days. You will likely need to put in more time, and that will pay dividends later.
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mk_chan2 个月前
The article is nice and the intention seems to be good, but it’s not backed up by the fundamentals. The salary range posted in the job listing is low enough that anyone who would answer the questions to my satisfaction (personal opinion) and is an autodidact would instantly ignore the entire listing or leave a year after joining once they realized how valuable the skill they have actually is. Having conducted 50+ interviews with Indian and international candidates, including those from FAANG, you can’t just discount these skills by 50-75% of their value and then post an article asking where they are in good faith.
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stevage2 个月前
This author sees a problem (lack of quality applicants) then assumes, with no obvious evidence, a cause (incorrect paradigm in education system failing to create young people able and willing to teach themselves professional skills) and prescribes a solution.<p>Seems there could be all kinds of possible causes here.<p>(To be fair, of course, I don&#x27;t know anything about the Indian education system and the author obviously does.)
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MattGaiser2 个月前
Self directed learner is not the same as someone willing to spend several hours on a lottery ticket for an interview. The cost of applying for this role is 100x higher than most other jobs.<p>So the independent thinkers did some thinking and realized that their expected return from this process wasn&#x27;t that high.
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fancyfredbot2 个月前
Are there no self directed learners? Or did none of them apply for your job?<p>I&#x27;m not in a position to answer this but I would expect that self directed learners would demand a premium salary and look for a prestigious role.<p>I would also expect them to have self learned different skills to the ones you might be looking for...
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joduplessis2 个月前
&gt; Where are all the self-directed learners?<p>Doing something other than filling out some esoteric BS form. These are possibly the worst kind of job applications in my opinion (coming from someone who has filled some out in my time).
technothrasher2 个月前
What this person is advocating for sounds exactly like what Maria Montessori was trying to accomplish. Though what I see a lot in Montessori schools these days is parents wanting to get their children into one because they see it as prestigious, and then pushing the school hard to conform back to a more mainstream educational path.
tomjuggler2 个月前
This is exactly the type of article that appeals most to me. Because it confirms my choice to drop out of college and learn on my own.<p>I have the utmost respect, though, for those with degrees who actually manage to use the knowledge they gain to achieve something. I just don&#x27;t think it&#x27;s the right path for everyone.<p>I&#x27;m not from India but will be taking the test just for fun
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austin-cheney2 个月前
In all fairness, as a JavaScript developer, self directed learning is negatively rewarded by the hiring process. Instead the primary target is a laundry list of tool nonsense that mostly just contributes to tech debt. That is why I won’t write JavaScript professionally anymore.
shermantanktop2 个月前
I looked at the form. I don’t know the Indian job market and the typical process, but I wouldn’t apply to that place. Invasive questions, woo woo culture vibes, and then a big multihour homework assignment with a warning about rejection. Looks like a waste of time to apply, at least for anyone who has other options. Maybe <i>that’s</i> where those self directed learners are.
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Chaosvex2 个月前
Had a look at the questions they ask applicants to answer in the hopes of even receiving a response and I&#x27;m not terribly surprised that people might not want to fill it out. Aside from the invasive questions...<p>&gt; Here&#x27;s a fun question: Someone who eats meat often has an allergic reaction. What are some likely reasons for this?<p>&gt; Please take 2 minutes to read our work culture and principles and answer this question: What do you think is the most intriguing aspect, and why?<p>Really?
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trod12342 个月前
Yes there is a growing problem, but the author as many others before him neglect the type of problem being faced.<p>It assumes the problem is that we don&#x27;t know how to teach better, and that&#x27;s just wrong. We do know how to teach people, we&#x27;ve done it in the past.<p>The actual problem is one of subversion of the processes involved. There is no accountability for teachers that harm their students in a specific way (i.e. teaching maladaptive behaviors through torture).<p>The prussian model of education has from the beginning been about creating loyal unthinking workers. That history has never changed, and the groups involved support that history through the shadows.<p>Its subtle, but its been happening for almost a hundred years to eliminate rational thought. Torture promotes this outcome, as the experts from the 50s can attest in their written works (Lifton&#x2F;Meerloo).<p>There is a classical approach to education where you are taught to be independent and think. It came from the greeks, and stood the test of time. If you see a problem with the existing system that is cascading, you need to go back to what worked. A known working state. Its just that simple.<p>Doing so would ruffle a lot of feathers because there are a lot of malevolent people out there in the world today, and part of evil and malevolence is a wilful blindness to the consequences of their actions.
_def2 个月前
I&#x27;ll never understand how employers can expect to rent my passion. If you want dedicated people, you have to start with dedication yourself.
pluto_modadic2 个月前
I think... The problem definitely isn&#x27;t your applicants. It&#x27;s your job posting being out of touch, full stop.
paradox2422 个月前
I can say this is definitely something I have noticed in many coworkers from India, but it&#x27;s also not exactly uncommon in those who grew up and went to school in America. It really blows my mind how many people become literally paralyzed on step zero if they don&#x27;t already have step by step instructions to complete the task. Even the suggestion of a simple Google search is received as if it were a revelation from on high.
leosanchez2 个月前
Is this an ad ?
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crazygringo2 个月前
&gt; <i>We received over 2,500 job applications. Fewer than 100 filled a form with open-ended questions. About 15 went on to complete a reasonably simple real-world challenge... Where are all the self-directed learners?</i><p>How does the author jump from low participation rates to a lack of &quot;self-directed learners&quot;?<p>This is a total non-sequitur. You&#x27;re running an interview process, not a MOOC or something.<p>The more I read the post, the more it looks like an ad for trying to get employees via HN.
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DavidPiper2 个月前
I&#x27;m still thinking about it, but two things stand out to me:<p>1. Self-directed learning requires intrinsic motivation. Seems obvious, but I think it&#x27;s really easy to lose that once you have extrinsic motivation (like a salary, or kids, making rent, a mortgage, etc). In these cases it may still be there, but redirected into things like hobbies, parenting, health, financial management, etc.<p>2. Self-directed learning is far more likely in a system where there is no (accessible) &quot;existing pipeline&quot; for externally-directed learning.<p>This was kind of how it was for us 20 years ago - first year university was the natural age you&#x27;d be exposed to programming, unless you did it yourself earlier than that because you wanted to, and if you did, there was no easy playbook, you had to RTFM, if there was one, experiment, fail, etc. And &quot;computing&quot; was niche enough that librarians or other non-academic figures couldn&#x27;t really even tell you what you might want to consider.<p>These days, coding schools accessible to anyone are not even a dime a dozen, they&#x27;re free. While I think this is a Good Thing™, it also falls into the trap described by the author where you&#x27;re no longer creating an environment where students have to learn for themselves, you&#x27;re creating an environment where they&#x27;re taught.<p>Again, I think more teaching is a Good Thing™, but the kind of problem solving the author seems to be describing is not actually related to any of the learned content, whatever that content may be.<p>It&#x27;s not about learning how to consume a resource, it&#x27;s learning how to be resourceful.
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steele2 个月前
Filtered out by Occidental culture and language specific word puzzles concealing discrete math and linear algebra
karmakaze2 个月前
This is an example of Goodhart&#x27;s Law, where qualification of entrance (whether to a college or company) is measured, and thus becomes the target for applicants rather than being good at what is being assessed.<p>I for one never really cared about grades and would just sit in class and try to understand what it was really about so that it made sense and could be internalized. I don&#x27;t think this works anymore where the bar is set artificial high using proxy checks (e.g. leetcode) or having to get past recruiting screeners who have no idea what the job entails.
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xeckr2 个月前
I&#x27;m here. I&#x27;m sure a good chunk of the user base here are also self-taught in matters related to technology and other pursuits.<p>As for AI, it basically allows self-learning on steroids.
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yahoozoo2 个月前
Has India ever had independent thinkers?