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Athena landed in a dark crater where the temperature was -280° F / -173° C

231 点作者 01-_-3 个月前

26 条评论

1970-01-013 个月前
Here&#x27;s the hole it fell into:<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.lroc.asu.edu&#x2F;images&#x2F;1408" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.lroc.asu.edu&#x2F;images&#x2F;1408</a>
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dang3 个月前
Related. Others?<p><i>Athena spacecraft declared dead after toppling over on moon</i> - <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=43292471">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=43292471</a> - March 2025 (340 comments)<p><i>The Moon Lander Athena&#x27;s Fate on the Lunar Surface Is Uncertain</i> - <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=43283136">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=43283136</a> - March 2025 (1 comment)
inamberclad3 个月前
Welp, I worked on this one. Specifically, I worked on the laser rangefinders which are under so much scrutiny. I no longer work at Intuitive Machines, but I&#x27;m certainly interested in finding out what happened to the lasers this time.
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1970-01-013 个月前
Still unclear what happened. Did they not anticipate a big moon hole or did navigation fail when the rangefinder failed?
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shadowgovt3 个月前
&gt; As a result, the privately built spacecraft struck the lunar surface on a plateau, toppled over, and began to skid across the surface. As it did so, the lander rotated at least once or twice before coming to a stop in a small, shadowed crater.<p>Oh yeah, we&#x27;ve all Kerbaled it in like that at one point or another.
areoform3 个月前
If you take the time to study the documentation from the 1950s &amp; 1960s, the engineering culture of that era <i>appears</i> to be markedly different from the engineering culture prevalent today. And I think it&#x27;s deeply rooted in the symbiotic relationship between computing, Baumol&#x27;s cost disease and our obsession with precision, results-oriented, MBA-style-min-maxing, &quot;good enough for government work&quot; engineering.<p>Robert Truax, the designer of the Sea Dragon, loved to promote the design paradigm of Big Dumb Boosters. Instead of many small, sophisticated rocket engines, what if we made one big robust one that can take a lickin&#x27; and keep on kickin&#x27;.<p>The idea was to relax the mass margins and to create big. dumb. boosters. It&#x27;s the approach TRW explicitly followed for the Lunar Module engine,<p><pre><code> &gt; &quot;There was an amusing but instructive side to this program. TRW farmed-out the fabrication of the engine and its supporting structure, less the injector that they fabricated themselves, to a &quot;job-shop&quot; commercial steel fabricator located near their facility . The contract price was $ 8000. Two TRW executives visited the facility to observe the fabrication process. They found only one individual working on the hardware, and when queried, he did not know nor care that he was building an aerospace rocket engine.&quot; &gt; &quot; I had arrived late to witness the test, and only saw the firing. I was told by others who witnessed the entire test procedure that the engine was pulled out of outdoor storage where it lay unprotected against the elements. Before it was placed on the launch stand, the test crew dusted off the desert sand that had clung to it. This unplanned inlcusion [sic] of a bit of an environmental test also demonstrated hardware ruggedness of the kind no other liquid rocket eingine [sic] could approach.&quot; </code></pre> The Surveyor program managed to make it &quot;just work&quot; 5 out of 7 times by adopting this approach. It had robust landing legs and RADAR. They would decelerate and then shut off the engine 11&#x27; above the surface. The wide, sturdy legs would then absorb that final impact of coming stand still from free fall.<p>These programs had a lot of capital behind them. Some components required precision engineering, but there&#x27;s a very clear through line and embrace of the &quot;we gotta make stuff that can take a lickin&#x27; &amp; keeps kickin&#x27;&quot; philosophy.<p>Modern engineering approaches seem to be the opposite of that. I think we&#x27;ve become so accustomed to living in a silicon driven world where our personal devices are engineered at microscopic level that we&#x27;ve forgotten how to do things the Apollo-era way.<p>For example, to the best of my knowledge, IM-2 doesn&#x27;t use RADAR — they&#x27;re using LIDAR and optical navigation instead. Perhaps it is to save on mass and power so that more payload reaches the surface. Perhaps optical navigation was declared to be &quot;good enough.&quot; Perhaps it doesn&#x27;t make sense from a minmaxing of capital perspective. But this philosophy may not be suited to an untamed frontier.<p>China adopted the Surveyor &#x2F; Apollo-era philosophy. Their first successful lander, Chang&#x27;e 3, used the same hover &amp; fall technique as Surveyor.<p><pre><code> &gt; The vehicle will hover at this altitude, moving horizontally under its own guidance to avoid obstacles, and then slowly descend to 4 m above the ground, at which point its engine will shut down for a free-fall onto the lunar surface. The landing site will be at Sinus Iridum, at a latitude of 44º. </code></pre> It chose the terminal landing sites with the help of LIDAR and its cameras, but it relied on RADAR and a suite of sensors to have robust navigation.<p>The follow up missions up-ed the ante every time, but they seem to have consistently focused on the robustness of their craft over precision, MBA-spreadsheet-oriented minmax-ing.
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dist-epoch3 个月前
Dumb question, but why can&#x27;t it have a few simple telescopic sticks which extend to flip it over if it lands upside down.<p>Seems it&#x27;s the second time they fail in this mode.
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lionkor3 个月前
<i>the</i> altimeter? Surely you would put three on there?
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Aerroon3 个月前
Is there any reason why we couldn&#x27;t have some rudimentary GPS-like satellites around the moon? That could help out these kinds of landers, no?
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ghostly_s3 个月前
This company&#x27;s PR team is doing incredible work getting all this type of coverage out of a 0&#x2F;2 track record with a design everyone else seems to think is obviously flawed.
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ck23 个月前
Kinda explain why Neil Armstrong burned up all their fuel except for a few seconds scoping out the landing site in paranoia.<p>Instead of building all these expensive to launch big landers, why not get some pizza-box sized probes into earth orbit AND THEN do like a slo-mo golf shot arcing to where the moon will be for a super slow&#x2F;soft landing?<p>Some will fail but if you launch 100 and get 20-30 working, there you go.<p>As technology progresses, get it down to a shoe-box sized probe and then in 10 years smartphone sized (in 100 years tic-tac sized).
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jiggawatts3 个月前
Scott Manley put together a great analysis of why it tipped over: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;youtu.be&#x2F;ISZTTEtHcTg" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;youtu.be&#x2F;ISZTTEtHcTg</a><p>TL;DW: It had far too much sideways velocity immediately before touchdown, likely due to some guidance-system failure. It would have crashed even if it was crab-shaped instead of tower-shaped.
villmann3 个月前
How can you have temperature without a medium? The lander would have steadily lost temperature through heat radiation, but it&#x27;s not like the vacuum had a temperature in the crater.
driggs3 个月前
Is there any sort of international body with regulatory power over the moon, or is it completely lawless and unrestricted?<p>This startup has already crashed two pieces of space junk onto the lunar surface. Can any startup able to get there do whatever they want?
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bell-cot3 个月前
At what point do you just fire your entire &quot;Land on Moon&quot; software team, and hire a couple young Neil Armstrong wanna-be&#x27;s, who can hand-land your spacecraft remotely? (In spite of the moon-earth-moon signal lag.)
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littlestymaar3 个月前
Can someone ELI5 why it&#x27;s at that temperature?<p>I mean, because it&#x27;s in the dark I&#x27;d expect it to reach equilibrium with space background thermal radiation which is around 3K. Yet its 100K. Where does that heat comes from? It radiates from earth? Conduct through the floor coming from the inner of the moon itself? (Is there some kind of geothermal gradient on the moon BTW?)
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Koshkin3 个月前
<a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;IM-2" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;IM-2</a>
TimByte3 个月前
Space is one of those rare fields where partial success actually counts as genuine progress.
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hilbert423 个月前
This is horribly disappointing but I&#x27;m surprised the altimeter failed as I&#x27;d have thought this would have been one of the more reliable aspects of the mission.<p>How does its altimeter work, exactly what tech does it use? It&#x27;s worth remembering that radar-type altimeters have been around for a long time and are well developed. For example, Little Boy that was dropped on Hiroshima 80 years ago used radar altimeters in a redundancy arrangement (four devices) and that worked on first attempt.<p>So what went wrong? Second question, was redundancy employed in the altimeter&#x27;s design? Third, if the altimeter employed redundancy then why weren&#x27;t its multiple sections of different designs to allow for the possibility that the reflected signal may be weak and noisy?<p>(The strength of a returned wave from a radar transmission depends on various factors including its wavelength and the properties of the surface it&#x27;s being reflected from. If there&#x27;s any doubt the returned signal&#x27;s S&#x2F;N would be such that noise could be a problem it&#x27;d make sense for a redundant system to employ multiple wavelengths whose frequencies are far enough apart to take advantage of the fact that the moon&#x27;s surface would reflect different wavelengths in different ways and at different signal strengths.)
accrual3 个月前
&gt; For the second mission in a row, the lander&#x27;s altimeter failed<p>That&#x27;s a bummer. Altimeters are relatively simple and defined hardware as far as I know. Send a ping, receive a ping, calculate. Too bad they didn&#x27;t incorporate a backup solution.
behnamoh3 个月前
the second pic reminded me of the pale blue dot... it&#x27;s a long way from home...
ivanjermakov3 个月前
Why people make temperature in space a big deal? It&#x27;s mostly vacuum and has no heat capacity. Sun radiation is the real threat, but the concept of temperature can&#x27;t even be applied to vacuum.
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jmmcd3 个月前
&gt; The Athena spacecraft was not exactly flying blind as it approached the lunar surface one week ago. The software on board did a credible job of recognizing nearby craters, even with elongated shadows over the terrain. However, the lander&#x27;s altimeter had failed.<p>&gt; So while Athena knew where it was relative to the surface of the Moon, the lander did not know how far it was above the surface.<p>This is really crappy writing. That second paragraph sounds like a self-contradiction. Unless &quot;the lander&quot; is a separate entity from &quot;Athena&quot;? Some publications refuse to use the same term twice, even if it introduces ambiguity as here.
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dang3 个月前
[stub for offtopicness]
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virgildotcodes3 个月前
To be clear, I am in no way a conspiracy theorist, at all. Seriously, not just a bs disclaimer. That said, all of the recent photos of the moon that have come out in the last month or so look, to my eye, super CGI. Just uh, overly smooth and lacking in detail?<p>Is there a reason for this or am I just tripping?
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yieldcrv3 个月前
&gt; this mission was largely a success. What can he possibly mean by that?<p>&gt; Compared to the company&#x27;s first spacecraft, <i>Athena</i> flew smoothly.<p>Reminds me of the comedian opining on the flipped over airplane.<p>“Did you know the pilot was a woman? [hecklers] Woah woah, I’m not saying women cant be pilots, thats not even accurate. She <i>flew</i> perfectly….. what I <i>am</i> saying is that she can’t drive”