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Copyright and the Demo Scene

99 点作者 zdw2 个月前

11 条评论

JoshTriplett大约 2 个月前
Taking a guess based on the text in the cited intro, I wonder if the problem wasn&#x27;t one of <i>copyright</i>, but one of <i>credit</i>.<p>Even in a group that doesn&#x27;t care about <i>copyright</i> at all, it&#x27;d be tacky to copy someone else&#x27;s code <i>and not credit them</i>, or to pretend it&#x27;s all your own work.
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alnwlsn2 个月前
Related, and a personal favorite of mine: DEF CON 18 - Jason Scott - You&#x27;re Stealing It Wrong! 30 Years of Inter-Pirate Battles<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.youtube.com&#x2F;watch?v=QCAL_YgYiP0" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.youtube.com&#x2F;watch?v=QCAL_YgYiP0</a>
darkmighty大约 2 个月前
In my view cracking is great because it democratizes games for those who can&#x27;t afford them. If you can afford it (and the game+company is good), then buy it. That&#x27;s how you can kind of be for-cracking and for-commercial games at the same time.<p>Personally, it would be great if everything was free and everyone used good judgement to pay creators. But I admit maybe a large chunk would just pay nothing, including some wealthy people who could well just chip in. While enlightenment doesn&#x27;t come...
FlyingAvatar大约 2 个月前
It&#x27;s been quite sometime since I have heard the term &quot;lamer&quot;, but I remember it being a ubiquitous insult in the BBS scene in the early to mid 90s.
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amiga386大约 2 个月前
Previous discussion on this theme:<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=41703213">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=41703213</a> Boris Vallejo and the pixel art of the demoscene (5 months ago, 118 comments)
msephton大约 2 个月前
A great read. Even today in the indie game developer scene there&#x27;s a huge range of opinion about what constitutes borrowing, copying, stealing, ripping, and grifting.
sedatk大约 2 个月前
I think the article dives at the shallow end of the pool, and only comes up with &quot;demoscene&#x27;s approach to copyright is self-contradictory&quot;. Yes, but does it matter? Is demoscene the only sub-culture with that kind of moral code overrides? Don&#x27;t we see the same in religions, cartels, NFT grifters, and people who use AI generated images?<p>Are these people who just create stuff for the sake of art, &quot;credz&quot; and self-entertainment really the only outstanding example? Are they the most important?<p>This is not a demoscene topic, but a human topic. Narrowing it down to demoscene doesn&#x27;t serve much purpose, IMHO.
amiga386大约 2 个月前
In Tom Scott&#x27;s <i>YouTube&#x27;s copyright system isn&#x27;t broken, the world&#x27;s is</i> (<a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.youtube.com&#x2F;watch?v=1Jwo5qc78QU" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.youtube.com&#x2F;watch?v=1Jwo5qc78QU</a>), he says &quot;It may seem unfair that the law holds kids on YouTube messing around to more or less the same legal standard as Hollywood studios. In public opinion, there&#x27;s definitely a big difference there: People smile at small creators taking content from big companies well outside fair use, but <i>never the other way around.</i> And that&#x27;s the reason that some small-time reaction YouTuber can take a five-second clip from a movie [...] but I&#x27;m damn sure if a movie studio took a clip of a reaction channel&#x27;s video and used it in a film without permission, there would be lawyers lining up to take the case.&quot;<p>This is what happened with Timbaland. The famous guy took a hobbyist&#x27;s work and gave him <i>no credit whatsoever</i>. Bastard!<p>I&#x27;m pretty sure that even if the _only_ thing Timbaland did was write &quot;Track 9: samples from GRG&#x27;s remix of Tempest&#x27;s <i>Acidjazzed Evening</i>&quot; in the liner notes of Nelly Furtado&#x27;s album, then there would be no controversy... even if he paid them nothing and didn&#x27;t bother seeking permission. But as he&#x27;s a sneak-thief and an egotist, he deliberately didn&#x27;t give them any <i>credit</i>, because then he&#x27;d have to admit it&#x27;s not <i>his</i> hook, it&#x27;s <i>their</i> hook he&#x27;s hanging the track on, and his ego refuses to allow that. He also disrespected them by not even appearing to know where the music came from - he claimed it was from a &quot;video game&quot;; BZZT, wrong, it&#x27;s &#x2F;MUSICIANS&#x2F;B&#x2F;Blues_Muz&#x2F;Gallefoss_Glenn&#x2F;Acid_Jazz.sid from the High Voltage SID Collection, and he probably found and sampled the tune while using a SIDStation and browsing C64 music... but didn&#x27;t respect his fellow musicians enough to cite his source.<p>There was a similar controversy with Zombie Nation taking David Whittaker&#x27;s <i>Lazy Jones</i> subtune 21 to make &quot;Kernkraft 400&quot; (but little mention that subtune 7 is the main riff of Nena&#x27;s <i>99 Red Balloons</i>)
bane大约 2 个月前
Scener here since the early 90s. The demoscene is what I&#x27;ve always sort of called the great &quot;third way&quot; of software development after commercial and open-source. The first two are very concerned with copyright (and left as it were) while the demoscene exists in an alternative universe where copyright doesn&#x27;t <i>really</i> exist and what is and isn&#x27;t allowed is complex enough to warrant a military-industrial program a la the Human Terrain System [1]. It&#x27;s almost impossible to succinctly describe, and is probably a big part of why the Demoscene is now (finally) recognized as a UNESCO cultural heritage of several countries.<p>In the demoscene universe you exist as an individual (scener) with a reputation, or a public &quot;face&quot;, then as part of a team (group) with its own reputation&#x2F;face, and finally and to a much lesser extent as part of a nation-state with a reputation.<p>Face is gained by making interesting team productions (prods) and successfully competing at competitions (parties) in various strata of competition (compos). You can of course also release prods outside of competitive parties (a release), but true social acceptance in the scene comes from competing, doing well, and competing regularly at higher and higher profile parties.<p>Where it gets interesting is in understanding the culture of what&#x27;s allowed and not allowed in a prod. It&#x27;s a complex mixture of compo rules, technological challenge, novelty, social norms and customs, and several other things that range from easily discernable to impossibly vague. But if you participate in the scene for any length of time you <i>know</i> what&#x27;s allowed and what&#x27;s not. For example, some groups in the last year released prods that had obviously AI generated components to them. The scene generally responded to those prods like a overamped shellfish allergy responds to shrimp -- not well [2]<p>You can make tribute prods that recreate assets, remix music, or squash, stretch, or otherwise shift the artistic vision of other works just so long as you do it &quot;right&quot;. The scene reward a certain amount of original effort, while outright copying is villainized, unless of course the copying is done in a way that works within the culture of the scene. The use of a 3d framework made by your group? Totally fine. Use of a framework made by another scener and released to the scene? Also fine. Use of Unreal engine? Controversial.<p>While AI generated assets were hated, I would <i>almost</i> bet that a demo prod, synthesized from other demo prods, in the <i>right</i> context (maybe in a wild compo) would do well.<p>The scene is complex, and interesting. There are a <i>few</i> efforts to academically catalog and study it, and I hope it gets a really thorough treatment from anthropologists because the demoscene is a <i>really</i> interesting phenomenon.<p>1 - <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Human_Terrain_System" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Human_Terrain_System</a><p>2 - <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.pouet.net&#x2F;topic.php?which=12637&amp;page=1" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.pouet.net&#x2F;topic.php?which=12637&amp;page=1</a>
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Animats大约 2 个月前
Not to be confused with the &quot;demoscene&quot;.[1]<p>[1] <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.demoscene.info&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.demoscene.info&#x2F;</a>
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6stringmerc2 个月前
Fascinating read and I’ve no sympathy for a scene that eats itself based on its own “copyright does not exist” mantra. No wonder Timbaland ripped them off. Good to get a lesson in the community.
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