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Rules for Negotiating a Job Offer (2016)

449 点作者 rzk大约 1 个月前

40 条评论

palata大约 1 个月前
I looked for resources a few years ago and found a post by a software engineer talking about &quot;Fearless Salary Negotiation&quot; [1]. The engineer said: &quot;it&#x27;s a small book, cost me around 40 bucks which were immediately compensated by the fact that I managed to negotiate a higher salary&quot;.<p>I wanted to ask for a raise: I had been working in that startup for 4 years and had never had a raise. I thought &quot;if that book helps me get a raise of a few bucks per month, that will pay for it&quot;.<p>It didn&#x27;t go as planned: I followed the instructions in the book, my boss spent an hour bullshitting me and I didn&#x27;t get a raise. So I sent my resignation the next day. The boss called me back, and I got a substantial raise and a bonus (to compensate for the shitty salary I had been having before, it was not a miracle).<p>All that to say that this book did not make me a pro negotiator. But it made me understand how salary negotiation works (reading it, I felt like a child: it only says common sense stuff, but I had been doing everything wrong my whole life). And it gave me the confidence to actually ask for a raise.<p>Totally worth it.<p>[1]: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.amazon.com&#x2F;Fearless-Salary-Negotiation-step-step&#x2F;dp&#x2F;0692568689" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.amazon.com&#x2F;Fearless-Salary-Negotiation-step-step...</a>
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ivanmontillam大约 1 个月前
One of the sentences at the very start caught my eye:<p>&gt; <i>I thought to myself: why is there so little actionable advice out there about negotiation?</i><p>There&#x27;s a wealth of actionable negotiation advice if you know where to look, like Harvard Business Review and Harvard Law, First Round Review, among others.<p>One of the big pieces on negotiation I got from Harvard[0], from their Program on Negotiation. I did not attend Harvard, but reading two or three of their articles a week goes a long way.<p>--<p>[0]: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.pon.harvard.edu&#x2F;uncategorized&#x2F;what-is-anchoring-in-negotiation&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.pon.harvard.edu&#x2F;uncategorized&#x2F;what-is-anchoring-...</a>
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neilv大约 1 个月前
&gt; <i>Rule #5 of negotiation: don’t be the decision-maker. Even if you don’t particularly care what your friends&#x2F;family&#x2F;husband&#x2F;mother thinks, by mentioning them, you’re no longer the only person the recruiter needs to win over. There’s no point in them trying to bully and intimidate you; the “true decision-maker” is beyond their reach.</i><p>It&#x27;s a very old thing in general, not just in job-hunting.<p>And sometimes &quot;I have to discuss it with my spouse&quot; is literally for real.<p>But if someone says it, but the listener doesn&#x27;t think it&#x27;s for real, then the speaker sounds like either:<p>* from a culture in which it&#x27;s mutually understood as a nicety, not to be taken literally; or<p>* a bullshitter.<p>The former is very Californian stereotype, incidentally.
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Pooge大约 1 个月前
For a company I&#x27;ve interviewed with, I&#x27;ve been asked twice a salary range and declined both times. I was even transparent for the 2nd time (which happened months later) and answered that it&#x27;s not in my interest to give a number first.<p>Well, I received an offer from them and I would have undercut myself by <i>30%</i>.<p>This is perhaps—or perhaps not—an extreme example, but I only applied what I was told in the negotiation articles and books I&#x27;ve read.<p>When you read a book, you&#x27;re going to think &quot;It&#x27;s just fantasy; no way this is going to happen to me&quot; but if you actually <i>apply</i> that knowledge it can truly work in your favor.<p>I also declined an offer 2 months beforehand because the salary was ridiculously low, despite being unemployed at the time.<p>Want is fine, need is not.
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iamleppert大约 1 个月前
When negotiating with a startup, especially a founder, always ask for two offers: one with a higher equity offer and another with a higher cash offer.<p>This allows the other party to still feel in control of the negotiation process but tells you two important pieces of information: the first is what the “top” number is for both equity and cash. The second is how much they really are valuing the equity portion.<p>Depending on the response, you can argue for both higher cash or equity, or both. I often ask what is preventing from giving both higher cash and higher equity? Often times I’ve gotten both.
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stared大约 1 个月前
I have been recommending this post over and over - in a blog post from 2016 on going from academia to data science (<a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;p.migdal.pl&#x2F;blog&#x2F;2016&#x2F;03&#x2F;data-science-intro-for-math-phys-background" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;p.migdal.pl&#x2F;blog&#x2F;2016&#x2F;03&#x2F;data-science-intro-for-math...</a>), via email, in person.<p>It helped quite a lot of people - especially women, who had a mindset that they should accept they should accept the offer. A thought that one can (and should) negotiate was a game-changer. Sometimes they were shocked that an ask for 25% more was accepted with no questions.
andrewstuart大约 1 个月前
I&#x27;ve negotiated hundreds of salaries for developers and tech people.<p>The key to negotiating is to get to a deal that both parties feel happy with - if you “win” a negotiation through power then you will likely find later you lost when you get paid back for winning through strength.<p>Here is what I know about negotiating:<p>1: know in advance the salary that you want<p>2: aim for a salary that is not at the high end, not at the low end<p>3: your target salary should be one that you will feel satisfied with if you get the job - you do not want to get the job and then be unhappy and feeling like you undersold yourself an looking over your shoulder for the next job.<p>4: it is a good idea to ask for a salary range - typically $5K to $10K. you can say &quot;I&#x27;m looking for $150K to $160K but it depends on what the role is&quot; - this gives you some room to negotiate and helps avoid overpricing yourself.<p>5: if you feel that your salary target is fair, then stick to that - when the time comes that they ask you how much you want - state what you want and explain why you think it is fair.<p>6: if you get negotiated down, explain again that you think your target number is fair and explain why. explain that given that the number is a fair market rate then you&#x27;re not moving down.<p>7: be willing to accept that you do not get the job as an outcome of asking for a fair salary - at that point shrug and move on.<p>8: if you are the start of your career then money should not matter at all - find a job that will allow you to hone your craft and learn key skills - this is the attitude you should have for your first five years. After that, you will be able to negotiate on the strength of your skills and experience.<p>Remember negotiation of salary should not be about a win&#x2F;lose attitude - if either party feels that someone won and someone lost, then that will be a bad start to the relationship. Negotiating salary is about finding a salary that both employer and employee feel happy at.<p>If you are an employer, remember that every dollar you pay ABOVE the requested salary buys you good will and enthusiasm. Every dollar you offer BELOW the requested salary does the inverse. Also avoid the &quot;If you do well we will pay you more in 3 months&quot; - just pay straight up front that amount.
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1a527dd5大约 1 个月前
The best advice I found was in &#x27;Never Split the Difference&#x27;. The rest is me being honest and direct.
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parpfish大约 1 个月前
I wish I could take this advice, but my imposter syndrome is just too strong and you cant just turn it off with logical explanations.<p>By the time I get an offer, I already feel like I’m already uncomfortable about all the bragging I’ve had to do to hype myself up. Asking for more in a negotiation is just a recipe for even worse guilt during the onboarding process (which is already a fraught time for feeling like an idiot).
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neilv大约 1 个月前
Dated 2016.<p>I think the 2025 rules will be different, for most US tech job-seekers.
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whall6大约 1 个月前
Having worked in investment banking (a job where your only true value add is your network and ability to negotiate) I would like to say two things:<p>1. I second everything in the article.<p>2. You would be surprised to learn how important rule #7 is. We would build entire presentations that we would provide to the other side of the table in negotiations just to reinforce our points. Basically putting ourselves in the position of “hey we’re on your side, but look at the numbers; our hands are tied!”. Having a non-confrontational attitude and providing specific reasons for why you are asking for things makes a big difference in negotiations.<p>(Definitely don’t need to be building presentations for potential employers though… unless it’s for contracts large enough that you’d need a lawyer and wouldn’t need OP’s advice anyways!)
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hellisothers大约 1 个月前
I clicked through to buy this book for future reference and discovered it was the guy I paid as a negotiation coach for my last job. It was expensive but extremely worth it, I’d do it again at 2x the price. Strong recommendation for Josh.
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hardwaregeek大约 1 个月前
With most tech career advice on the internet, I would check to see if it was written before 2022. If so, I&#x27;d take it with a grain of salt. I wrote tech advice in the ZIRP times. It was a very different market. Negotiation is still a valid tactic but there&#x27;s a lot more to lose and a lot fewer offers than in 2021.
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0xbadcafebee大约 1 个月前
&gt; A company’s goal is to hire someone who will become an effective employee and produce more value than their cost.<p>This isn&#x27;t true. They have no clue how to measure your value output. A company&#x27;s goal is to make sure it has the staff to get its work done so it can sell its thing. A hiring manager&#x27;s goal is to find someone to do the thing they don&#x27;t have time&#x2F;staff for. They will pay somewhere in the realm of whatever the market pays, depending on the &quot;philosophy&quot; of the hiring manager, engineering director, finance people, etc.<p>I recently interviewed for two jobs in different locations. Both remote, both companies in mid-tier locations in terms of salary. Same type of job, same kind &amp; size of company, same tech, same problems to solve. One was offering 40K more than the other. I wasn&#x27;t going to produce 40K more value for one than the other. Hiring and salary is just not a very smart process. They have the budget they have, and the market is what it is.
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aclimatt大约 1 个月前
This is all great advice especially at the 101 level. At the 201 level, you can start to skip a lot of these formalities by straightening out the information asymmetry and really having a crisp position on the value exchange.<p>- Your #1 goal should actually be knowing the top of the range of what this role is worth in the market. Once you figure that out, the whole &quot;don&#x27;t say the first number&quot; rule is BS. Set expectations at the high water mark and then your job isn&#x27;t to negotiate on salary; it&#x27;s to negotiate if you&#x27;re worth it<p>- Now that you know the maximum price this role (or product, or service -- it&#x27;s all the same!) can be set to, you need to convince the other side that you deliver the requisite amount of value to justify the price. Like the article said, talk about your impact. Your BATNA. Your opportunity cost. All of these things are real and support why you are worth it<p>Once you transition from negotiating on price alone to negotiating ROI, everything changes. Try your best to solve the asymmetry, set the price and move on, find your leverage, and then make a compelling case. That&#x27;s how you win
ein0p大约 1 个月前
Rule #1 is: have leverage, and understand your leverage.<p>Rule #2: be prepared to walk away<p>There are no other rules.
CharlieDigital大约 1 个月前
Lots of good gems<p><pre><code> &gt; And yet, when people talk about the labor market, they think “oh, a company wants to give me a job! What a relief!” As though having a job were in itself some special privilege for which a company is the gatekeeper. &gt; &gt; Dispel yourself of this mindset. &gt; &gt; A job is just a deal. It is a deal between you and a company to exchange labor for money (and other things you value). &gt; &gt; Negotiating is a natural and expected part of the process of trying to make a deal. It’s also a signal of competence and seriousness. Companies generally respect candidates who negotiate, and most highly attractive candidates negotiate (if for no other reason, because they often have too many options to choose from). </code></pre> I&#x27;m far from a great negotiator, but there are definitely lots of good lessons from here that I&#x27;ve learned the hard way over time and through experience.
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pjdemers大约 1 个月前
I&#x27;ve always asked for better non-monetary things in writing: title, spot on the org chart, automatic promotion soon, which parts of the product and stack I will work on, even as trivial as whether my desk will have a window. I state with constant certainty that those things are more important to me than a bigger paycheck. Most of the time I was offered far more money (in one case, 2 years pay signing bonus) in return for my agreeing to accept an offer with none of those things in writing.
foresto大约 1 个月前
Related: How to sabotage your salary negotiations efforts before you even start<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=37239747">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=37239747</a>
pkdpic大约 1 个月前
He&#x27;s not a perfect figure but I always really valued Haseebs perspective and energy. I used to have access to an old lecture of his explaining memory management through whiteboard sketches of original mario that I really loved in addition to dozens of energetic insightful lectures on foundational computer science concepts that he basically did for free before his AirBnB position.<p>I think he played a big role for a lot of pre-pandemic bootcamp imposters like me.<p>But seeing this pop back up on HN I&#x27;m wondering how radically the tech world &#x2F; job market has changed. I&#x27;ve been hiding in kushy underpaid remote jobs basically since the pandemic so I have no real idea whats going on out there.<p>How applicable is this perspective to the present day market for software engineers? How much have things fundamentally changed?
renewiltord大约 1 个月前
For startups, I&#x27;m pretty upfront about the fact that I don&#x27;t negotiate but if they go under my activation price I will simply decline. It&#x27;s a one and done deal and we can revisit months later. The range of cost I&#x27;ll accept is quite large (though this part I don&#x27;t communicate). I don&#x27;t mind working for $200k annualized on things I really enjoy and I don&#x27;t mind working on things I enjoy less for $800k annualized and so on. I have an internal sliding scale and I&#x27;m quite clear that I don&#x27;t really need to work on any specific thing. Then I just take the gig if it meets my internal criteria.<p>In my experience, it isn&#x27;t about making a $20k more now or whatever. It&#x27;s about making a million more because you&#x27;re invested in something worthwhile etc. etc.
dangus大约 1 个月前
&gt; If you must divulge what you’re making<p>Never do that.<p>&gt; Companies will ask about your current compensation at different stages in the process<p>This is not legal in many states, 44% of the US population lives in states where companies asking your salary is not legl.<p>Also, the exploding offer advice is terrible. It won&#x27;t work. The company will just drop the offer. The actual advice is to decide quickly.<p>I also think that gaining some chump change during the negotiation is somewhat pointless as companies will just equalize salary bands over time.<p>Let&#x27;s say you win $5-10k additional salary during negotiation. Great, now your second year&#x27;s salary increase is only going to be 2% instead of 5%.<p>I think the real advice in the age of states having salary transparency laws is to not apply to jobs that don&#x27;t have a salary range listed in the job description.
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ericrallen大约 1 个月前
Based on the website, was this published in 2016?<p>The job market in 2016 is unrecognizable to anyone who has had to look for a job recently.<p>It is absolutely brutal out there right now, and this feels a bit detached from reality.
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Tainnor大约 1 个月前
This was written in 2016. The job market in 2016 was basically &quot;you can throw a stone and find somebody looking for a developer&quot;. These days, the market is so different that I&#x27;m not sure if the same advice is still relevant.<p>In addition, some of this kind of advice has always struck me as particularly US-centric and I doubt it all applies equally well in e.g. Europe. You don&#x27;t get very far here by not sharing your initial salary expectations early on, I think.
KronisLV大约 1 个月前
Oh hey, this uses PT fonts, I quite like them:<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;fonts.google.com&#x2F;specimen&#x2F;PT+Sans" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;fonts.google.com&#x2F;specimen&#x2F;PT+Sans</a><p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;PT_Fonts" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;PT_Fonts</a><p>I&#x27;d actually use them as my main programming font if the dot (.) character wasn&#x27;t a bit too small at smaller font sizes.
coopykins大约 1 个月前
I found this article at a time where I had the opportunity to accept two job offers, so I had nothing to lose by pushing for more salary. The negotiation went well and got a substantial increase in the final offer on company A. On the other hand, company B dropped their offer. So watch out, if company B had been my only option I would have lost my opportunity.<p>I was clear from the beginning that I had another offer at hand, to use as leverage.
1970-01-01大约 1 个月前
&gt;oh, a company wants to give me a job! What a relief!” As though having a job were in itself some special privilege for which a company is the gatekeeper.<p>A global recession is happening. Let&#x27;s see if this advice will withstand the times or will age like milk. I predict the latter; the Great Depression wasn&#x27;t fake news.
waltbosz大约 1 个月前
I read some advice that suggested asking the salary band during salary negotiations and that many HR departments won&#x27;t hesitate to share.<p>I tried this while interviewing for my current job and sure enough they shared. Lesson learned: you can ask and the worst they will probably do is say no, but it&#x27;s very valuable knowledge if they share.
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xyst大约 1 个月前
Very old advice (2016). Definitely very good in that period of time though. I suppose it’s relevant today for some job posts.<p>But thanks to transparency in pay regulations from states such as Colorado. Pay is advertised up front.<p>You know what you are worth. Find jobs&#x2F;companies that fit that ideal number. Then pop off in interview(s).
__turbobrew__大约 1 个月前
Here is my negotiation tactic: “I see on levels.fyi that people of my level make X dollars, I want the top of that range”<p>And magically I got 25% more TC. Only works for big enough companies with salary datapoints online.<p>It is kind of crazy how there is a bifurcation of TC between those who bothered to negotiate and those who didn’t. Being on the inside I know there are ranges for positions and if you push you can pretty much always get to the max for your range, obviously the recruiters will not give you a max TC offer right away.
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refurb大约 1 个月前
This is quality advice. It approaches the process with the other party in mind.<p>I’ve put a few of these into practice and they work quite well.<p>Once you’ve made it to the offer stage most companies want to close. You have more ability to push back on offers than you think.
casey2大约 1 个月前
If the people spent half as much time building skills as they spent creating, reading and following random &quot;rules&quot; then the climate change, homelessness, tech employment crisis etc would all be solved problems.
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jeffrallen大约 1 个月前
Just a data point: I once avoided giving the first number, and when pushed into it, gave a ridiculously high number for a job I really wanted. The HR guy said, &quot;no that&#x27;s too high&quot;. Well duh, idiot. You make a big story about how you can&#x27;t possibly move forward until I tell you something, I&#x27;m going to tell you something, and you&#x27;re not going to like it.<p>I waited a day to cool off and think hard, and called the guy back to say, &quot;Your colleagues have selected me, I&#x27;ve proven I&#x27;ll be able to do this job, and they told you they want me to. I told you, make me an offer. You instead required me to make an offer, and look where it got us? Now do as I asked, make me an offer, and we&#x27;ll see. I won&#x27;t be offended, this is a hard post to fill, and we both want this to work, so just try, will you?&quot;<p>Hardest phone call I ever made, but worth it. I saved my colleagues from having to go find another candidate, and got myself a job I wanted for the right price.
drekipus大约 1 个月前
I had a simple formula:<p>&quot;I feel like I am contributing at least $X value to the company. If I am then it makes sense to pay me that, and if not I&#x27;d like to know how we can get there.&quot;<p>It starts a discussion and it&#x27;s more honest: if I am not worth that much then tell me how I can be more valuable.<p>I have had a pay rise every year from this conversation but my company is very flexible and successful, so mileage may vary.<p>I find all other approaches to me gimmicky and tricks, and somewhat dishonest in some way.
bongodongobob大约 1 个月前
Unless you&#x27;re in like the top 1% in your field, there is no negotiation. Must be nice I guess.
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iamiamiam大约 1 个月前
Companies should offer the best offer in the first place. If the candidates still negotiates, either he is not a fit or you will not make him&#x2F;her happy&#x2F;loyal either, the best option is pass.
msteffen大约 1 个月前
It’s funny, I switched from engineering to management a few years ago, and as part of learning to be a manager I really had to learn to negotiate (Avery Pennarun, founder of Tailscale, describes Eng managers as professional negotiators, which I think is at least partly true). I loved this article.<p>There’s a book on negotiation called “Getting to Yes” that uses a different framework, which became my preferred way to think about negotiation: The goal of a negotiation is to strike an agreement that both parties <i>are happy about</i>. The stereotypical negotiation, “I won’t go a cent below $10,” “well <i>I</i> won’t go a cent above $8” is bad negotiation because even if they meet at $9, neither is happy about it. Instead, the effective negotiator thinks creatively about what would make them <i>happy</i> and asks if it’s available.<p>As much as I basically agree with it, I would cast the advice in this article differently. Here’s my take, for what it’s worth:<p>- Re. all the author’s advice about withholding information: you may not be happy if one day you find out that you’re being paid 30% below market (though maybe you won’t care—know what you care about! It will help you negotiate more effectively). The ideal solution here, though, is to know about the market! Consult levels.fyi, talk to your friends, maybe interview from time to time before you’re really looking.<p>- Re. Don’t be the decision-maker: this is a useful rhetorical tactic, often also called “bad cop,” and it’s not really negotiation-specific but you can bring it into a negotiation if it helps you (at one startup, our co-founder would say on sales calls, “let me check with my sales team” when he was definitely the whole sales team). Honestly, IMO it’s only really useful if you’re trying to placate someone, which you hopefully shouldn’t be when you’re weighing <i>their</i> offer, but you’re welcome to use it if you have social anxiety about pissing off the recruiter (you probably won’t, but I understand the worry)<p>- Re. stay positive: …yes? The goal is to get to a deal you’re both happy with. If you’re already not happy, then the negotiation is already over. The effective negotiator walks away before getting mad—why burn a bridge over one deal not panning out?<p>- Have alternatives: honestly this is the main thing. I don’t know how much there is to say but anyone will understand you not being happy with a deal that’s already not your best option.
semiquaver大约 1 个月前
in [2016]
taklimakan大约 1 个月前
This is all very interesting, but is complete fiction for most readers. 99% of job seekers aren’t going to receive competing offers from multiple companies conveniently at the same time.
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agold97大约 1 个月前
I just skimmed, so not sure if this was mentioned.<p>It&#x27;s pretty basic, but BE FAIR. It goes a LONG way and is (sometimes) hard to clock.<p>I was offered something in my contract, and I misread the offer (not because it wasn&#x27;t clear, I literally just skipped over a couple of words). Subsequently, I continued on with negotiations and never mentioned it as a concern.<p>It wasn&#x27;t detrimental to my offer, and I knew I&#x27;d be fine with accepting that term, but it was sort of an annoying term. I knew if I went back to it after the 3rd round of negotiations and negotiated it, then it just wasn&#x27;t fair. I later told my boss about it and he appreciated it a lot. I have an amazing and fair relationship with my boss.