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Glamorous Toolkit

343 点作者 radeeyate大约 1 个月前

24 条评论

Grumbledour大约 1 个月前
I am so conflicted about this project every time it comes up.<p>I think I understood for quite some time what it wants to do (Though when checking the website there always creeps in doubt, because it is so incomprehensible) and every year when I download the application again, it looks a bit more cleaner, a bit easier to just use. But still, basic things always elude me. Do I really have to read the handbook to figure out how to format text in the knowledge base? Half the windows and symbols just make no sense, etc. Try pressing a button to see what it does and now everything looks different and what even happened?<p>It seems to glacially improve on that front and I know to really use it, I have to learn to program it, but I am also of the mind basic functionality should be self explanatory. And pharo itself as the basis of this seems so convoluted and complex, I wonder if I even want to get into this.<p>And then, the community seems to solely be on discord still, and that is then always the point were I bow out and wonder if cuis smalltalk or other systems with simplicity as core tenant are not much nicer to use and I should look there. Of course, in the end, I never get more than surface deep into smalltalk, because while I want the tools to build my own environment, if I need to build them first, there is always more pressing work...<p>But honestly, a great knowledge base and data visualization I can intuitively just use and then expand later on with my own programs sounds like a dream workspace. It&#x27;s just, that it is really hard to get into at the moment. I don&#x27;t know any python, but I could just use jupyter know and learn as I go, but sadly, I never get that feeling here.
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photonthug大约 1 个月前
Awesome. Had a feeling this was going to be a smalltalk thing. Seems to involve&#x2F;extend moose[1] among other things.<p>Judging from the comments and such interesting projects languishing in obscurity.. smalltalk &#x2F; pharo[2] still has a PR problem even though I think a lot of people are kind of fascinated by the ideas of image-based persistence[3]. The typical easy comparisons to VMs, IDEs, and notebooks all seem to fail to capture an important part of the essence. Hence the need for new vocabulary like &quot;moldable development&quot; and &quot;contextual micro tools&quot; which is all part of the appeal <i>and</i> part of the problem. It really is a different kind of thing.<p>I (still) hope it all catches on a bit more but my sense is that it probably needs to present itself as a bit less academic. Compare the moose touting of &quot;meta-meta-modeling&quot; with something like gritql[4], which focuses more on use-cases, and seems to be gaining in popularity rather than remaining obscure. Seems like maybe it&#x27;s time for a change in tactics to bring in a wider audience.<p>[1] <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Moose_(analysis)" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Moose_(analysis)</a> [2] <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Pharo" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Pharo</a> [3] <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Smalltalk#Image-based_persistence" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Smalltalk#Image-based_persiste...</a> [4] <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;github.com&#x2F;getgrit&#x2F;gritql">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;github.com&#x2F;getgrit&#x2F;gritql</a>
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mindwok大约 1 个月前
This comes across like someone&#x27;s PhD project. It&#x27;s unclear from reading the website what this is useful for and what it actually is.
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throwaway743950大约 1 个月前
Glamorous toolkit has always looked interesting to me, but feels a bit unapproachable. It just feels so foreign between smalltalk and a whole sort of philosophy that goes with it.<p>For those with more experience, is it still relevant? Can the same be accomplished with python and jupyter notebooks?
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WillAdams大约 1 个月前
Previous discussions:<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=33267518">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=33267518</a><p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=23569799">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=23569799</a><p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=42987951">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=42987951</a><p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=23235120">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=23235120</a><p>It&#x27;s something I&#x27;ve been considering for my current project:<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;github.com&#x2F;WillAdams&#x2F;gcodepreview">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;github.com&#x2F;WillAdams&#x2F;gcodepreview</a><p>as I reach the limits of Literate Programming and so forth, but not convinced that the added overhead will pay off. Does anyone have a before-and-after of a project where this has been really useful? Bonus points if in Python.
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nathan_compton大约 1 个月前
I periodically check in on this and I can never understand what its really good for.
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jamesrcole大约 1 个月前
Some feedback on the webpage.<p>&quot;The goal? To make the inside of systems explainable.<p>[image]<p>caption: &quot;The need for moldability is pervasive. The treemap shows the classes of Glamorous Toolkit organized in packages. Blue denotes classes that contain at least one contextual view; green shows those that have an example.&quot;<p>I have no idea what that caption, nor the image, means, nor what it has to do with making the inside of systems explainable.
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dhab大约 1 个月前
First time coming across this project and it&#x27;s amazing!! Disclaimer: not used it, but certainly going to try it.<p>Technology is too fragmented - day to day many of us depend on a ton of tools to go by our (work)days even for simple stuff. Log into console of X, Y &amp; Z platform or tools (say X = Jira, Y = AWS, Z = repo) to introduce a new change&#x2F;feature&#x2F;bugfix whatever. Then switch to IDE of choice to eval code, then browser to read the docs, then Google&#x2F;Claude to ask questions, and then be interrupted by a meeting, take notes, ... and on and on<p>I see an opportunity here using something like this to unify your entire workflows&#x2F;data-from-tools&#x2F;tools into a uniform system you can query to get answers without having to jump through hoops (and give up). It appears investing time in building a repertoire of tools with something of this sort helps one automate or quicken chores (at work or at home even?)<p>What else could you do with this apart from what&#x27;s in the demos? Some &quot;can it do this?&quot; questions if anyone who has used this could helpfully answer are:<p>* organise meeting notes across various topics and auto-compile a searchable &quot;decision log&quot; that you can drill in to dive into the context at a future date?<p>* connect requirements (specified in excel) to JIRA tickets and Code? so you can jump back and forth in a single GUI<p>* Log hours you have worked on something<p>* create up to date management process reference &#x2F; checklist along with escalation contacts, response templates, ability to engage others on roster, and later bring together all the information into a automated PIR timeline and other details<p>* display system metrics of deployed services in AWS based on complex rules and provide local alert<p>* maintain a schedule of your kid&#x27;s swimming lessons<p>* Notion like &quot;verification expired&quot; notifications<p>* Live tables (say of stock market tickers)
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dude01大约 1 个月前
I love the ideas presented, and it really highlights how current IDE&#x27;s have removed power from users. I think (from only reading and watching some videos) that this Glamorous Toolkit is a hybrid between Smalltalk IDE and C.A.S.E. tools.<p>However, I downloaded the app but cannot figure out how to view my own source code. None of the example videos that I can find, show me how to use an existing local git checkout of source code.
acureau大约 1 个月前
The jargon makes this project really difficult to understand at a glance. I&#x27;ve gathered that this is an environment for the programmatic inspection of existing systems. It is developed by a company that works heavily with legacy code, and they found that writing code to inspect a system was a faster way to answer questions about it than reading the source. That seems like a really cool approach.<p>I still do not understand what &quot;moldable development&quot; means. To me this implies a different paradigm for building applications, which does not seem to be what&#x27;s offered. I don&#x27;t understand what a &quot;micro tool&quot; is, is it a unit of code? Am I missing something here?
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gugagore大约 1 个月前
Many comments are comparing Glamorous Toolkit to a JuPyteR notebook. It&#x27;s worth noting that the comparison falls short because Glamorous Toolkit itself, including all of the UI [1], is implemented in the target language.<p>[1] <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;github.com&#x2F;pharo-graphics&#x2F;Bloc">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;github.com&#x2F;pharo-graphics&#x2F;Bloc</a>
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cess11大约 1 个月前
It&#x27;s much better packaged now than n years ago when I stumbled on installation and whatnot and gave up, that&#x27;s great. If you like me don&#x27;t like the font size, search the book for how to scale UI, the last snippet on that page show&#x27;s how to do a global font size change.<p>Plain Pharo is a really nice environment too.
vivzkestrel大约 1 个月前
I honestly saw all the screenshots and still dont understand even in the slightest bit what exactly your product does. Perhaps you picked a bad name or perhaps the copy on the website doesn&#x27;t do justice to what the product actually does. Since you pasted some python code somewhere as example in one of the screenshots, I ll ask you a very simple question. I have a 50 line python program. I run your tool, what do I see?
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ChicagoBoy11大约 1 个月前
Reading through that website felt to me like trying to read the NKS book. It certainly feels like there&#x27;s a there &quot;there&quot;, but I&#x27;m either to unintelligent or can&#x27;t devote the time to really get it, and then I move on
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ilaksh大约 1 个月前
I wonder if this was inspired to some degree by projects like Simonyi&#x27;s Intentional Programming.<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Structure_editor" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Structure_editor</a><p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;martinfowler.com&#x2F;bliki&#x2F;ProjectionalEditing.html" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;martinfowler.com&#x2F;bliki&#x2F;ProjectionalEditing.html</a><p>Is gtoolkit the most advanced Projectional Editor or Structure Editor Editor so far?
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daveguy大约 1 个月前
PSA: if you&#x27;re watching the video. Get through the first (or fast forward to) 2 min 3s... The audio quality is much improved at this point. At first I wasn&#x27;t able to watch on 2x speed with all the noise, but at the 2min mark it was much better.<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;m.youtube.com&#x2F;watch?v=_ztGZpo9I9E&amp;t=2m2s" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;m.youtube.com&#x2F;watch?v=_ztGZpo9I9E&amp;t=2m2s</a>
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16bytes大约 1 个月前
I also have little idea what this project does or wants to do. Let&#x27;s just talk about the homepage, especially the above-the-fold portion.<p>&gt; &quot;Glamorous Toolkit is the Moldable Development Environment&quot;<p>So it&#x27;s some sort of an IDE? What does moldable mean?<p>&gt; &quot;Make systems explainable through contextual micro tools&quot;<p>What is a &quot;system&quot; in the context of an IDE? &quot;Contextual micro tools&quot; also sounds completely abstract.<p>&gt; &quot;Each problem about your system is special. And each problem can be explained through contextual development experiences. Glamorous Toolkit enables you to build such experiences out of micro tools. Thousands of them ... per system. It&#x27;s called Moldable Development.&quot;<p>... this does not help at all. Just more words without meaning.<p>Next, there&#x27;s the video. For somebody with zero context so far, why would they sit through a 46 min low quality video?<p>tudorgirba - if this is your project, you really need to focus on getting the top half of the page right. People won&#x27;t watch your video, no one will read your book if you can&#x27;t give them a hook they understand.<p>Use words and phrases with concrete and well understood meaning with adjectives:<p><pre><code> * Don&#x27;t say &quot;micro tool&quot;. Like Posix utilities? What is a tool? What makes it micro? * Don&#x27;t say &quot;contextual development&quot;. Isn&#x27;t all development contextual? * &quot;moldable&quot; - no one knows what this means, don&#x27;t force them to try and figure it out. * Don&#x27;t say &quot;system&quot;, it is too abstract. </code></pre> For example, &quot;Glamorous Toolkit is an IDE for literate programming with first class support for interactive visualizations&quot;. If you can&#x27;t get that sentence right, people just won&#x27;t invest in learning more about your platform.
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user3939382大约 1 个月前
A couple years ago I spent about 2 hours trying to install this, crawling obscure dependencies, configs, special IDEs, etc before I gave up.
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someguyfromital大约 1 个月前
I would not take advice about how to make systems explainable by people that build such an incomprehensible website.
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sakesun大约 1 个月前
Project motto:<p>&quot;Make systems explainable through &lt;unexplainable&gt;contextual micro tools&lt;&#x2F;unexplainable&gt;&quot;
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tylerjnewman大约 1 个月前
Maybe this can be made into a mcp agent that was able to create tools that can be called by llm clients...
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gjvc大约 1 个月前
people seem to miss that for technologies like this to succeed, it is not necessary for others to fail. interoperability is (or should be) the most important goal of all software.<p>the fewer operating systems and environments there are, the lower the incentive to make portability a feature.
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wisty大约 1 个月前
So .... kind of like iPython notebooks but for building a system?
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henning大约 1 个月前
OK, so it&#x27;s like Python notebooks and Smalltalk. so it&#x27;s like this dynamic thing for transforming data in a rapid feedback, ad hoc, exploratory fly-by-the-seat-of-your pants way. OK. why talk about &quot;capturing domain knowledge&quot; in videos where you&#x27;re just making a class and sticking a variable in it? what does the class even do anyway if it&#x27;s just a name with a field that&#x27;s a bag of data?
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