Sexual Harassment at DefCon (and Other Hacker Cons)

I wasn't sure what to think of the red/yellow cards when I first heard about them, but the suggestion that it should be bystanders them giving out is <i>awesome</i>. Everything we know about human psychology suggests that a disapproving peer group is a <i>strong</i> behavioral deterrent.

Not specific to hacker culture, but I always felt there was a bit of a double standard when it comes to alpha male behavior. Women are attracted to aggressive men. Women like men who take charge. Women like men who are the initiators. Now obviously there is a line that crosses over into sexual harassment, but the fact is that men who behave aggressively are the ones who succeed in sexual pursuits most often. It's almost as if when the girl is attracted to the guy, it's flirting, but when she isn't, it's creepy/sexual harassment. I wish it weren't like this because I, personally, am not very aggressive.<p>I'm not trying to defend the behavior described in the article, I'm just saying that men act like that because it works.

Nerds (and I say this as one) have problems dismissing their anti-social members, because nerds have been dismissed from other social circles, and hated it. They don't want to be the bully. And so real asshole behavior is allowed to continue <i>far</i> longer than it ought to.<p>The computer security industry has its own special problems. There is a very significant segment of the population that has "do whatever you can get away with" as their mantra and have built up significant antibodies against any criticism thanks to a large crowd of enablers.<p>Who was the last person who was shunned from the community for his behavior and/or actions?

It sounds like a lot of this stuff happens at bars during events, not at the events themselves.<p>How common is this behavior at bars in general, independent from a hacker con?<p>Also: some of the girls that I know who are hackers are <i>offended</i> at the idea of red/yellow cards. The implication there seems to be that they're helpless, and need somebody to swoop in and save them.<p>That, at least to some of my girl friends, is utter bullshit, and is blatantly sexist against women.<p>--<p>And to be completely honest, the red/yellow card thing has <i>already</i> become a flirtatious joke among people.

I think there is a real disconnect between what hackers think of their community and what it actually is.<p>We often claim to be one of the purest of meritocracies, since our primary interactions only allow us to interact with each other's work and emails/posts, but clearly we aren't quite as capable of this meritocracy as is commonly stated. I wonder how much differently these women are treated online as opposed to in person when interacting with the same people.<p>If the yellow-red card system does catch on, I would prefer to see the green card avoided. I don't know if it really adds anything to the system, and I worry that it would detract from people understanding what they did wrong. "I got a green card, but also a yellow card. I'm still good to women though, that second chick was just a crazy bitch." It seems like it gives people a way to justify their bad deeds with other good deeds.<p>However people attempt to do it, it would be lovely to see this kind of behavior weeded out, as it provides both a point of hypocrisy and isolation that benefits no one.

&#62;Like the man who drunkenly tried to lick my shoulder tattoo. Like the man who grabbed my hips while I was waiting for a drink at the EFF party. Like the man who tried to get me to show him my tits so he could punch a hole in a card that, when filled, would net him a favor from one of the official security staff (...) Or lastly, the man who, without prompting, interrupted my conversation and asked me if I'd like to come back to his room for a "private pillowfight party."<p>Ugh! Words fail me.

Science-fiction author (and SFWA president) John Scalzi covers this kind of thing pretty well in the context of sci-fi/comics/anime conventions (where creepy asshats are also an ongoing problem). Seems equally applicable here:<p><a href="http://whatever.scalzi.com/2012/08/09/an-incomplete-guide-to-not-creeping/" rel="nofollow">http://whatever.scalzi.com/2012/08/09/an-incomplete-guide-to...</a>

From one of the comments: <a href="http://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2012/08/sexual_harassme.html#c846060" rel="nofollow">http://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2012/08/sexual_harassm...</a> &#62; <i>Who I really wish would grow up at DEFCON is the EFF. Once again they have a fund raiser in which one of the prizes is a picture with one of the strippers DEF CON hires every year.</i><p>Seriously?

Lots of my peers who don't get this stuff don't get it because to them not physically assaulting the opposite sex comes naturally. They don't realise that others are very aggressive with it.<p>You just have to remember with advances that when in doubt, take a step back. You wouldn't grab someone you weren't attracted to from behind right? If your planned chat up didn't work, so what? You came for the tech not the women right?<p>And blokes, lets please keep out of "its so hard for men too". Sure, men get sexually assaulted, it's a real problem. In my city its nearly as likely for men as women, but here's the key. Do you feel safe at conferences? I do, but it seems lots of women don't.<p>Let's make everyone feel safe and valued at all our events.

Are there problems that actually occur AT the defcon conference? Sounds like most of the anecdotes are from parties, where alcohol is a factor. Is defcon a conference or a party?

Honest question: As an observer, when should I feel comfortable interjecting? Things like "if the afflicted party looks uncomfortable" seems rather vague, and just because I am offended doesn't mean the person receiving it is offended (I've known this to be the case). I'm honestly interested in knowing the best way to gauge when I should act without insulting people that are offended. I'm referring to the non-obvious cases, of course. Unwanted groping is fairly obvious, for example. However, agressive flirting without a clear sign?

To the startup founders who are defending this behavior (if any of them do indeed run one or are attempting to start one): <a href="http://www.eeoc.gov/facts/fs-sex.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.eeoc.gov/facts/fs-sex.html</a><p>Next, imagine your sister/mother/fiance was the girl at the bar who got licked or had her crotch grabbed. How would that make you feel?<p>I'll never understand how anyone can defend this sort of behavior... I used to volunteer at the women's center on my college campus... if you heard half the experiences most of these women go through on a regular basis maybe you'd learn some empathy.<p>How would you feel if some guy started cat calling you as you walked home at night? How about while you walk to the store? Now imagine this happening on a regular basis.

I strongly agree with the need for professionalism and social etiquete in all public and professional situations and I'm glad that is a running theme as of late and that sexual harrasment is being targeted. I think that the cards idea is absurd, though; awarding immature behavior a red card and rewarding 'good behavior' in any way - as opposed to simply treating adults like adults - is itself innapropriate.<p>I think the correct way to deal with harrasment is those who partake are either simply banned from the con or dealt with more severely depending on the conduct, and those who behave simply continue enjoying the benefits of conferencing with like-minded individuals of all genders and backgrounds.

Sexual Harassment is a problem, but I am not convinced that a card system is the way to solve it. If a woman is being a jerk at a conference does that mean I can card her? I was just reading of a top official (a women)in the US government who is accused of sexual harassment of her subordinates. Any sort of rules that favor one sex over another will be used to do just that. I am a big fan of codes of conduct at conferences. If someone violates them (be male or female) they are tossed out, period.

DefCon or 5 million college bars across the country?<p>You could have replaced those two terms and ended up with the same article. Perhaps the problem isn't <i>just</i> a nerd demographic issue.

DefCon should follow the advice of the characters from Bizet's Carmen:<p><pre><code> Quand il s'agit de tromperie, de duperie, de volerie, il est toujours bon, sur ma foi, d'avoir les femmes avec soi. Et sans elles, mes toutes belles, on ne fait jamais rien de bien! </code></pre> In its day, it was probably a bit of socially accepted misogyny, but I think we can re-contextualize it here. If one engaging in strip club antics has no women as friends or colleagues, one should ask if the bacchanal is just a form of overcompensation.<p>EDIT: That is overcompensation for a lonely sausage-fest life. This is why gay engineer's lives are better than yours:<p><a href="http://www.smbc-comics.com/index.php?db=comics&#38;id=1927#comic" rel="nofollow">http://www.smbc-comics.com/index.php?db=comics&#38;id=1927#c...</a>

No excuses here, but who would have thought that male hormones and alcohol would lead to such behavior.

OK, I'll bite.<p>I've flirted at one of the evening events after the talks - after hanging around the person for several hours and spending some time one-on-one. And I had no intention of doing so when I first met them. No way would I do that under any other circumstances.<p>If you're interested in someone you meet at a conference, you need to be extremely cautious and not expect that the other person shares your interest. Probably it is best to offer personal contact information in addition to professional and see what comes of it rather than pursuing the matter at the conference itself. Let them decide how to contact you.<p>Hitting on someone at a party or bar during the conference might be in bad taste but as long as the pursuer takes no for an answer it's not what I would call sexual harassment. However if it happened repeatedly from multiple people I would get fed up and leave.<p>Hitting on someone at the conference proper when the focus should be technical is insulting and completely inappropriate. +1 on calling the pursuer a pervert.<p>And the conference organizers and presenters need to be held to a higher standard. They should not encourage or engage in sexual behavior even if it's a social event.<p>Intentional, uninvited physical contact is right out and should not be tolerated under any circumstances. The instigator should be kicked out no matter what.

Previous discussion on the article he's talking about: <a href="http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4326647" rel="nofollow">http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4326647</a>

From the comments <a href="http://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2012/08/sexual_harassme.html#c846421" rel="nofollow">http://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2012/08/sexual_harassm...</a><p><i>I have been attending DefCon since DCIV and I've had my share of confrontations with drunk idiots who think their flirting methods are acceptable. A well worded put-down almost always keeps these guys at bay. A well placed arm-bar or knee typically takes care of the rest. I played Vanna Vinyl at Hacker Jeopardy for three years (and Beer Betty once). I had hordes of guys asking me for photo-ops when I was all dolled-up for HJ. 99% of them didn't recognise me during the day when I was in shorts and a tshirt w/no make-up.<p>I love DefCon and have no intention on not attending until DT calls it quits. It's the one week out of the year that I get to spend with my friends and adopted from all over the world. DefCon has never been a "professional" conference. It's a hacker convention/weekend long, cut-loose party with talks. (There are talks at DefCon? ;) If you want professionalism, attend the BH conference the week prior.</i>

How about we let women attend these conferences for free? Like a form of affirmative action to help balance the sex ratio. Would that help?

idiots. Most of the fucks who pull this shit are no-value skiddies.

I don't go to bars that often (at all) but isn't this typical behaviour at bars?<p>However they deal with it at bars is how they should deal with it here.

Women want equal right but can't deal with such stuff and thus cries for help? If you can't deal with what you experience there - DON'T GO THERE. Simple. After all you go there just for fun. I was harassed by women and I learned to deal with that. Time women stopped crying and learned to take care of themselves if they want "equal" rights.

Q Q

All of this could be avoided if guys would just follow the advice in this video: <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gBVuAGFcGKY" rel="nofollow">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gBVuAGFcGKY</a><p>1. Be Handsome 2. Be Attractive 3. Don't Be Unattractive