Why Hacker News Thinks PHP Won Something

Without the disparaging remarks toward HN, this post would be much better. Granted, I'm new here, but I feel like HN is more about embracing intelligent discussion than embracing the "right way".<p>The fact that this post could raise a coherent counterpoint to the issue is evidence enough of that.

I don't understand this article. I think it wouldn't have gotten as much interest without the meta-hacker news aspect, and I'd much rather see less of that stuff than less about PHP.<p>The thing thats most wrong with this article is the author understands exactly what the other authors meant. I don't think they were attaching any more meaning to word 'won' than having the most users. Something this author doesn't dispute. Communication was successful, if you need to add extra information about why you think PHP sucks then go ahead. It's not in conflict with those other articles.<p>I doubt anyone's idea of won is: earns contract programmers more money. Even here though the author contradicts himself in two ways: he says that PHP was more popular because you didn't need headers, and that this meant the "difference between driving a Honda and piloting a yacht". Then he claims that PHP had no language advantages and earns you less money.<p>There is a lesson in there for language designers - keep making those simple but common tasks easier, every little bit can make huge difference if its multiplied by an economic shift.

While I agree with the assertion that warm bodies organized around a specific technology does not = win, I'm not certain that those are the only metrics for success at play in these articles.<p>Take the case of the small startup without an inspired coder CTO which didn't have time to wait for ruby or python programmers who went shopping for contractors. PHP can get you far and fast (and often badly).<p>I was interviewed to lead technology in a place like this and they knew I'd try to make them start over and abandon PHP (purist, longview). PHP had provided them capability and in their mind clearly "won" (developers existed and made themselves clearly visible on the market). They wouldn't have been in business at that point if they had held out for something better.

Just because an article with a subjective title gets voted up doesn't mean the community necessarily agrees with it.<p>Unless you're on Reddit and the post is titled "Vote up if you think PHP won!!!"

"A commodity can only compete on location and price, and location doesn't really get you much on the Internet."<p>I don't know why the author thinks PHP coding is somehow different from every other kind of programming, and that there aren't huge differences between programmers (we're talking orders of magnitude) as far as speed of output and code quality go.

<i>A commodity can only compete on location and price, and location doesn't really get you much on the Internet.</i><p>I used to think this until I started freelancing, but it's <i>much</i> easier to get quality jobs if you can meet with the client face-to-face at the start of the gig.<p><i>If you program only in the most popular programming language, you have made yourself a commodity.</i><p>The author seems to think that one PHP programmer is just as good as the next, but there's a whole litany of skills beyond just writing code in whatever language that make someone desirable to a client or employer, from communication to product design. Programmers are not cogs in a machine that you can replace easily as long as you find one that speaks the right language.

Giles seems to be operating on the assumption that you can't charge a reasonable amount for PHP work. Does this imply that he views himself as a commodity programmer? That if he were to be doing PHP work he'd be doing it at the same caliber of an outsourced shop in India?<p>Of course if this Giles character knew anything about economics he would also know that complementary products have complementary demand curves. So, the more PHP applications out there means there's more demand for PHP programmers.

Salary is not the only criterion - what if I mostly care about getting things done, not about becoming employed? (Not that I would choose PHP anyway, but still).<p>I am also not convinced that PHP just got lucky with the timing and that therefore there are no language design lessons to be learned. Perhaps if you get a noob into programming, they would still have an easier time with PHP than with more modern MVC based frameworks, because it is more straightforward. You still just write SQL directly in the code - it is messy, but easier to grasp than having to work through all sorts of layers of abstraction.<p>Maybe there IS a language lesson there - although I sure hope PHP is not the final answer...

Good points but why not just comment within the thread?

It's a rather strange argument: Use the least popular language around to make the most money. He's probably right. When I was younger (and I'm not that old) I did a stint working in COBOL. And honestly, you couldn't pay me enough to do that day in and day out!! But those that can stand it and know how to do it are paid well and have reasonable job security.

So if PHP is a commodity and price wins, why would any company NOT choose PHP as it's development environment? Cost wins in business. If PHP essentially does the same thing that Ruby and Python does, there would be no reason to pay a Ruby developer more.<p>There are various levels of skill within any programming language. It may take someone with no programming experience a day to write a small database app in PHP. It doesn't mean that I'd be willing to hire that person to code something worthwhile for my company.<p>You can't simply real world situations into easily digested bites and act like you are saying something profound. In reality, you're just omitting the layers that make the real world situations complicated.

There's a repeatable principle in the PHP story: Know who the real customer is. In this case the real customer was shared hosting providers. In other cases you'll have to figure it out for yourself.

This isn't about PHP winning, it's about Ruby on Rails <i>not</i> winning, ie: losing.<p>Obviously C# beats the pants of both of these hippy languages so the argument is moot anyway.

I'm not sure it's fair to say that the ability to write php is less valuable then the ability to code other languages just because php is more popular. This may be true for contract work but if the majority of companies are using php it's probably in your best interest to know it. While it may be beneficial to know other languages, it could be detrimental not to know php, which could be considered a win for the language.

I didn't bother reading this, based on the title which assumes I think PHP won something, I guess. I used PHP for a few years, then found something better. I never thought PHP won anything, other than a momentary lapse of my reason.<p>Next time, be less of a generalizing dick.

Spot on! Except for the hint of hacker news disdain.

PHP won because web designers now can be programmers too.<p>I don't care about algorithms, binary trees or what fuck. I can code a web page in a day and that pays the bills.<p>It could have been an echo, a print or a put, but it had to be simple for us, not scary as system.console.writeln()<p>Most of you will never understand, you all come from a C or Lisp background and can make a computer cry for sure. We don't care, we just want to spit HTML in shiny ways and 'echo' is all we need.