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Apple's New Pinch-To-Zoom Monopoly is Bad News

220 点作者 bookwormAT超过 12 年前

32 条评论

babarock超过 12 年前
To me the real bad news is that I'm scared shitless to develop and commercialize anything now.<p>No invention is truely innovative, not a single product on the market today is truely original. We're all influenced by the same factors and we're all trying to push the same limits in technology.<p>I don't have nearly the means to go to court against a company like Apple (or any company at all for that matter). If I launch my product today, I would be afraid of being successful, because I know I'll be bullied by others.<p>And when patent lawsuits can win you a Billion dollars, patent bullies are happy and waiting for me.<p>But yeah, I agree patents are a driving force behind innovation...
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brudgers超过 12 年前
The analogy with cars is misleading. Patents (unlike copyright) offer protection for a fairly limited duration. The steering wheel and other standard controls would long since have been unprotected.<p>Likewise, our children will be free to incorporate pinch to zoom in a few years...if of course patent protection doesn't lead to innovating a prefered alternative.<p>On the one hand I think IP laws have significant problems, but on the other, Android's interface shows little evidence of a meaningful effort at innovation and even less effort to respect the IP of others in the industry.
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RivieraKid超过 12 年前
Google should distribute two Android versions - one for the U.S. (with features like pinch-to-zoom removed) and one for the rest of the world. This would hopefully create some pressure to change the obsolete patent system.
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badclient超过 12 年前
Question about patents - is the act of pinch-to-zoom patented or the <i>implementation</i>(the algorithms, type of hardware needed etc.) patented?<p>If it is the act that is patented, then as others have mentioned, its not necessarily original. If the implementation is patented, could there be alternative implementations? Did Samsung even actually copy Apple's implementation(at an algorithm level)?
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andybak超过 12 年前
Compare this with the culture prevalent in web development.<p>People sharing every improvement or advance by blogging about it, open-sourcing code, writing tutorials etc.
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mtgx超过 12 年前
This is what I've been thinking from the moment Apple started going after Android manufacturers with patents like these, and it's why the patent system is <i>so very flawed</i>, because it doesn't account for how competition actually works in a market.<p>Let's say you have one company "create" a new product category - a new type of product. So they are the first ones doing that, but this is usually done through some combination and improvement of old things.<p>But then you <i>have to</i> get other companies to do the <i>same</i> or <i>very similar</i>, because that's how competition works, and that's <i>exactly</i> what competition is. Making 90% of the same product - so to be in the <i>same</i> product category - but having that 10% as a competitive advantage over the others in that specific market.<p>Competition is not overhauling the product 90%. That's just not how it works, and you don't have to take my word for it. Just look around you at any product category you want. They are all 90% similar and 10% different, not just in how they look, but how they function. The only major "overhaul" happens once a decade or so when that specific market gets disrupted, but then that new market is populated by competitors doing the same, too, and the cycle repeats itself.<p>If you wouldn't have that, you'd have exactly what the article is saying - random "innovations" just for the sake of being different so you don't get sued, less competition from the point of view of the users, because the vast majority of them will prefer a certain way of doing things, and since only one company can own that, it means monopolies will be much easier to form - and it will also be much harder for new entrants.
MichaelApproved超过 12 年前
I think pinch to zoom is pretty innovative and someone should get credit for coming up with that idea. Without it, I bet we'd see the classic magnifying glass in the bottom corner of every screen to zoom.<p>Simple does not mean obvious. UX designers need to protect their work and creativity.
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thewileyone超过 12 年前
I think Android should implement a clock-wise single finger "circle around an object" to zoom and counter-clock-wise to unzoom. Just like the "undo" option in Paper. That's pretty cool.
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philbarr超过 12 年前
Personally I think pinch-to-zoom doesn't work very well anyway. It always seems to zoom in too quickly or too slowly; the amount of zoom seems arbitrary.<p>What I've always wanted was to be able to put two fingers to mark the top left and bottom right of a bounding box which would mark how much to zoom in and hold for, say, half a second. To zoom out use two fingers to mark the top right and bottom left of the bounding box you want the current screen to zoom out to (again hold for half a second). This would be much more accurate. The time delay is to allow for mis-taps and to give the user time to get the bounding box the right size.<p>A variation would be similar but would be something like:<p>- hold two fingers on the screen until you get a bounding box like above.<p>- move the bounding box to the correct size.<p>- let go and the zoom happens.<p>With this method you could cancel the zoom action by collapsing the bounding box on itself vertically or horizontally.
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no_gravity超过 12 年前
So far this only applies to the USA, right? Will companies ship their products with pinch-to-zoom to the rest of the world?
saturdaysaint超过 12 年前
I think it's instructive to look away from the world of operating systems, which have been under legal threat since the 80's and thus have always been under an anti-competitive, anti-innovative shadow. The fact that so few companies tried what Apple did with UI speaks as much to the intimidation inherent in the industry than to Steve Job's genius.<p>Whenever I ask myself if patents are necessary to promote innovation, I think of music software, where copying is a fact of life yet highly original ideas emerge year after year. Whenever something useful emerges (like Ableton Live's once innovative "session view" where you launch repeating music clips) it's usually copied by half the industry within a few versions and nobody even blinks.<p>In the mean time, the biggest incumbents (Avid's Pro Tools, Steinberg's Cubase) have remained seemingly profitable businesses, and consumers have benefited from abundant choice. The competition has also encouraged the software makers to add a lot of value in the form of lots of included content (soft synths, effects, loops, etc.). And funny enough, the more innovative companies (Ableton, Propellerhead, Cycling 74 spring to mind) keep coming up with interesting ideas.
brandoncapecci超过 12 年前
"We have always been shameless about stealing great ideas..." - Steve Jobs <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CW0DUg63lqU" rel="nofollow">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CW0DUg63lqU</a><p>"I will spend my last dying breath if I need to, and I will spend every penny of Apple's $40 billion in the bank, to right this wrong. I'm going to destroy Android because it's a stolen product. I'm willing to go thermonuclear war on this." - Steve Jobs
netcan超过 12 年前
IP laws have to do an impossible task.<p>They need to separate innovation into two piles based on whether an innovation would have/could have happened without that party and (though this seems to be easy to forget).<p>That's what these laws are supposed to be doing. The problem is that this is a job that legal systems (laws, lawmaker, courts, etc) are not well suited for. Even if you leave aside problems like big patentholders in existing industries &#38; companies out-lobbying potential future beneficiaries of reduced patent protection (future businesses &#38; consumers) it would be hard to make laws that woud do this job effectively. Laws that will do the job effectively for generations are virtually impossible.<p>I think that Apple <i>did</i> do something with iphones that may not have happened without them. That said, I don't think that any of these specific patents capture that.
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biturd超过 12 年前
Question: Can I start a small dev company in some other country thereby bypassing any patent trolls? Perhaps somewhere like Sweeden where they are much more sane about these issues?<p>If this is the case, all we are ending up doing is driving technology away from the USA, and continuing to kill our economy.
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CulturalNgineer超过 12 年前
Patents are important protections designed to protect the hard work of individuals from the onslaught of more powerful forces... I've got one myself (a utility patent)<p>THIS IS NOT THE CASE HERE!<p>This is more akin to privatizing the alphabet...<p>Not exactly a great way to stimulate civilization's advance.
wtvanhest超过 12 年前
(This comes from an S2 user with Pinch-To-Zoom.)<p>First, Pinch-To-Zoom is the best idea anyone has come up with yet, but it certainly won't be the last.<p>If anything, this decision forces Google/Samsung etc. to innovate a better solution. If you don’t think one exists, I think you are sorely mistaken. Pinch-To-Zoom needs to be used by 2 hands (one to pinch, one to hold the phone) which inherently is annoying.<p>If the patents are trivial, obvious, etc. other companies will find workarounds and some of those workarounds will be better than what is currently available.<p>In 12 months, this lawsuit will be meaningless because technology will keep advancing forward.
jjara超过 12 年前
Samsung can:<p>1. Negotiate a license with Apple to use patented gestures. =&#62; Reduces profit margins on Samsung phones. Bad news.<p>2. Invent/use other gestures. =&#62; Forces users to learn new gestures. Should be fine.<p>3. Challenge the patent system claiming User Interface patents should not be. =&#62; Re-initiates the debate on the use of patents to protect inventions/stop innovation, in particular when it comes to UIs. The real question.<p>Let's refocus. This question requires a deeper analysis than a simple analogy with car manufacturers, but fortunately does not require hackers to turn IP experts.
nachteilig超过 12 年前
Please stop blaming Apple and start blaming the patent system itself. Samsung would have done the exact same thing if they had those patents or came out with iPhone first.
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thomasjoulin超过 12 年前
Any reason/proof Pinch-To-Zoom (and the other Apple patents in the Samsung case) will not be licensed under FRAND ?
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hcarvalhoalves超过 12 年前
Another article that doesn't get patents right.<p>"Apple did first in iOS now <i>only</i> iOS can use them"<p>No, everyone can use, as long as they pay Apple whatever they ask for the royalties, or get sued by ridiculously sums of money.<p>The monopoly is not on the invention - the monopoly is on the legal right to ask <i>any</i> value from, or sue, whoever implements similar idea.<p><i>That</i> is what's f<i></i>* up about patents, because otherwise, it would be a great idea since you can build upon other's inventions and the inventor still gets financial return for R&#38;D.
pschlump超过 12 年前
I can imagine what he is saying. In a Cherokee 180 4 person airplane you do steer on the ground with your feet and control the throttle with your hand. In a Gulfstar 50 you steer on the ground with a dial for your left hand placed off on the left. You need training to use each machine. The world has not come to a screeching halt just because not all airplanes have the same controls.
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jawr超过 12 年前
What I don't understand, is how Apple market these gestures as being very "human". If they are so natural, how can they be patented?
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anandpdoshi超过 12 年前
Has anyone used Aldiko ebook reader on android? It uses the right edge of the mobile's screen to change its brightness. With your thumb, trace the right edge towards the top and brightness increases, down and it decreases. I wonder if something similar could be used for zooming. You don't need two fingers to zoom!
sbuk超过 12 年前
I don't think we need anymore of these threads. It's getting repetitive. There are too many emotional individuals on all sides of the fence that are adding nothing of value to the debate. If you want to flame that's fine, go do it on Reddit or try the Ars Technia battlefront forum.
dharmarth超过 12 年前
US patent business is really sad. Looks patents are given without doing enough investigation. I remember turmeric and neem get patented by some university of US, where India is using these herb from ancient time. Is it really given to protect someone's innovation?
glenntzke超过 12 年前
Does this mean Metro apps need new guidelines? Here is the documentation for optical zooming in Metro: <a href="http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/apps/hh465307.aspx" rel="nofollow">http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/apps/hh46530...</a>
ryanwanger超过 12 年前
It blew my mind when I learned about d-pad patents for video game consoles. Ever wonder why Playstation had to use that awkward combination of 4 arrow-like things pointing towards each other? Patents.
mikecane超过 12 年前
Submarine patent <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Submarine_patent" rel="nofollow">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Submarine_patent</a><p>Well, I guess it's better than having to deal with that.
emehrkay超过 12 年前
I asked in another thread, but the first few versions of android didn't have these features, what changed?
ajaimk超过 12 年前
Not much worse than Amazon's Monopoly on 1 click ordering.
cin_超过 12 年前
Great artists steal... good artists get caught?
ktizo超过 12 年前
All the cited apple patents on multitouch gestures appear to be filed since Jeff Han's TED talk - <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QKh1Rv0PlOQ" rel="nofollow">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QKh1Rv0PlOQ</a> - which clearly demonstrates many of the patented techniques. I find it really hard to understand how any of these patents were awarded.<p>[edit] Some of the quotes from his 2006 presentation are quite relevant to this...<p>... <i>"Now, multi-touch sensing isn't anything- isn't completely new, I mean, people like Bill Buxton have been playing around with it in the '80s."</i> ...<p>... <i>"Now this is a photographer's light box application. Again, I can use both of my hands to kind of interact and move photos around. But, what's even cooler-</i><p><i>(uses fingers to 'grab' two corners of one of the photos and 'pulls' it to full screen size)</i><p><i>is that, if I have two fingers, I can actually grab a photo and then stretch it out like that really easily. I can pan, zoom, and rotate it effortlessly.</i><p><i>(slides piles of photos around)</i><p><i>I can do that grossly with both of my hands,</i><p><i>(pulls photo out of stack &#38; enlarges it)</i><p><i>or if I can do it just with two fingers on each of my hands together.</i><p><i>(grabs empty space around photos &#38; zooms in and out of canvas)</i><p><i>If I grab the canvas I can kind of do the same thing- stretch it out- I can do it simultaneously, where I'm holding this down-</i><p><i>(holds pile of photos down while pulling out another)</i><p><i>-and gripping on another one, stretching this out like this.</i><p><i>Again, the interface just disappears here. There's no manual. This is exactly what you kind of expect, especially if you haven't interacted with a computer before."</i> ...<p>Which sort of begs the question that if an expert in the field thinks the gesture is exactly what you would expect, even if you had no expertise whatsoever, then how does that not qualify as obvious?
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