Yes, India is a police state - Christopher Soghoian

India is not a police state. India is a dysfunctional state only made functional through continuous petty bribery.<p>Historically police states like Nazi Germany or Mao's China operated by being well organized at all levels of society. India is absolutely not well organized at all levels of society. Instead India seems optimized for the petty bribe seeking bureaucrat. It's not the all knowing police state. It's the disorganized mafia state.<p>I had an easier time getting a work permit in Russia last year than India. The sheer amount of paperwork and rubber stamps required for my Indian work permit was the worst I have ever had to deal with and I've worked all over the world. All of this paperwork and stamping allows perfect opportunities for small time bureaucrats to extract bribes and favors from people who just need to get something done. So when I look at something like requiring ID to use wifi I don't see Total Information Awareness. I see Tammany Hall and a genius system that's operating exactly as it was designed, to extract graft from normal people at every possible opportunity.<p>Disclaimer: I lived in India for 0.5 years in '99 and recently worked there again in 2011 for a month. My answers are based on these experiences and of knowing lots of Indians frustrated with their government.

I would disagree. India is not a police state. India is a bureaucratic state. These regulations are not meant to frighten or intimidate people. As the article points out, they're so ineffectual as to be laughable. Police states tend to be quite a bit more brutal than that.<p>No, all of these regulations, permits and rules are classic hallmark of bureaucratic empire building. All those Internet cafés now need to be inspected to ensure that they're keeping track of their customers. The department that manages to grab that privilege has access to more lobbying power, more bribes, and more influence. Any politician would lust after side-benefits like that. So, after any catastrophe, the answer is always more regulations and more inspections, regardless of whether those regulations and inspections would do anything to actually solve the problem.

A few years ago I had traveled to India, and had plans to leave the country for a week then return. Big mistake. I was advised to go to the Indian embassy in the destination country to get permission to come back. I did so, they took my passport and told me to come back the following day, hence delaying my travels within that country by a day. I returned to India ok. When i was leaving India I was asked why I had not checked in with the local police after returning. This was confusing to me but this said its a requirement for any foreigner leaving and returning within a 2 month period. As such, they wouldn't let me board the plane. I stayed in a hotel near the airport thru the weekend. On a Monday I went to the appropriate station, where there was a long line of foreigners in a similar predicament. When it was my turn, I was told i would need to show proof of a relative or someone I was staying with, so my uncle came and brought his passport and electric bill. Then I was told it would take some time, but he went in the back, met the director of that station and talked him up by mentioning people they knew in common and I got approved. Then there were no seats on my plane available for the rest of the week, but I had to get back to work, so I bought a new ticket and went home. I am Indian mind you, although born and raised in the US. I will not be returning to India ever again.

I am not sure if India is a police state yet or not. I think tourists don't have it easy as they don't understand the country as well as the natives. If you are a native you do know how to get things done. However, it is true that India is on the slippery slope where its most important democratic institutions are slowly breaking down. The first to go was the media, an example of which was the media now running paid columns as well as the attacks on journalists who threaten the status quo. The next in line is the judiciary. While the top levels of the judiciary seem to be still untainted, the lower levels seem to have been corrupted. The Election Commision was tainted a long time back as well. All this is happening and most of the middle class is unconcerned at this stage.

The problem with the Indian govt is that it is known to take the most sweeping knee-jerk but completely ineffective measures in tackling security: some examples-<p>- SMS used to spread inflammatory stuff? BAN SMS<p>- Bicycles used as bomb placement locations? - ID needed to buy bicycles<p>- E-mail used to claim credit for incidents? - Strong ID proof for surfing the net<p>- Many terrorists that the incompetent intelligence agencies cannot track? every tenant in any rental place needs to submit to "Police Verification"<p>- etc, etc etc<p>Incompetence and Dysfunction combined with corruption &#38; fear - Result &#62; current state of India

RE: Cybercafe - To be fair, they do this because they don't have the infrastructure or the technology to track you and all your data.<p>RE: Bank accounts - Yeah, I've heard this happen from my friends. But they say that it's quite much easier to open accounts in private banks as compared to the "State Banks". But even they require some sort of person to vouch for you.

&#62; Just finding a place with public Wi-Fi is a serious effort<p>That boils down, mostly, to poor infrastructure. It's getting better at airports.<p>&#62; This is a police requirement that is supposed to track terrorists. Unfortunately, we are yet to see a case where this requirement has managed to stop a terror attack in India.<p>It is known with proofs that many threats emails were sent from internet cafes. That was the real motive.<p>&#62; Photocopy issues<p>I carry color photocopied ids everywhere in India. This is about not knowing where to get what.<p>&#62; But no nation does it at the cost of its own citizens. No free country harasses, and humiliates, its own citizens.<p>TSA of the US comes to my mind, and that too, is just a security theatre as has been pointed out so many times here on HN!

In all of this the funniest part is that the government/bureaucracy is so uselessly inefficient and corrupt that the very IDs they ask for are meaningless.<p>Case in point, my driving license has my name and address incorrectly written on it. I didn't make any effort to do this, it was just carelessness by the person filling in the details. I can now continuously use this as an ID everywhere and they believe they are 'tracking' me. Extend this to the other millions of folks out there who have similar documents.<p>The main issue here is that they are trying to track people with a broken system. Their efforts at security are laughable at best and redundant at worst.<p>Meanwhile the average Indian citizen suffers from documentation hell. (unless they're friends with someone important ;)<p>Obviously there's also the question: Should they try to track you ? Unfortunately respect for the average individual in India is so low that this discussion does not make sense there. Privacy has absolutely no meaning in India. It's almost like asking "Should dogs wear collars ?". There are no philosophical discussions involved. Just practical ones.

We been called many names but never a police state.His cry is all about providing id. One 9/11 and the government started stripping people and entering your bed rooms.In India, the average ratio of a police to citizens is around 1:200. This is from major cities. When you go rural, the ratio will shrink further. Considering the number of terrorist attacks we have and population density, ids are the bare minimum preventive measure we have.For Indians, the accepted id can be any one of voter id, driving license, atm card with photo, ration card, passport and college id. Even my son's play school id was accepted in air port. We usually keep photo copies of one of the above.<p>I am surprised to see crap like this got many points. What's next? something related to Jersey shore?

I have a problem with people who like to call India simply a dysfunctional state. What does that even mean? The author here is hypothesizing a reason for the dysfunction. Its just a hypothesis but its still well ahead of calling it simply broken. Also I believe 'police state' doesnt imply big-brother-esque behavior on the part of the govt. Even unending policing and related rules can be called that. Far too many people especially Indians take comfort in calling it 'simply dysfunctional' thereby oversimplifying the situation and hence not bothering to find out what can be done to improve.

Your police aren't given $100 Million from taxpayers to buy toys like this, including land and air drones.<p><a href="http://www.theatlanticwire.com/national/2012/08/hardcore-security-gear-protecting-conventions/56174/" rel="nofollow">http://www.theatlanticwire.com/national/2012/08/hardcore-sec...</a><p>I think US has India and virtually all other countries beat.<p>I expect they are going to start to do random stops for IRIS scans like they do in the middle-east over here soon - you know, for all the terrorists roaming our streets and airports and buses and trains.

India is not a functional state. It is not a state even. It is a collection diverse states that are held together through British Era bureaucracy. The states that indian union is composed of has very different outlooks and cultures. Blame it on British for the invention of India!

The Worst Argument In The World (lesswrong.com) <a href="http://lesswrong.com/lw/e95/the_worst_argument_in_the_world/" rel="nofollow">http://lesswrong.com/lw/e95/the_worst_argument_in_the_world/</a>

Great website.. As soon as I open it a javascript popup shows saying "ReferenceError: FB not defined".

"But no nation does it at the cost of its own citizens."<p>don't be so certain.

My experiences are <i></i>unlike<i></i> the blog says. You've got to know your city and where the services, things are not that organized ofcourse. Also, India is big on Human powered telephony search query based services(see 1). It <i>really really</i> works here. For example, you could ask who runs the nearest color copier via phone, and the answer would be SMSed to you.<p>Also another thing which is unique in India, is the home delivery &#38; pickup culture. You can get virtually anything home delivered like fresh meat, booze, and ofcourse snacks(see 2) etc. Also pickup services like laundry (one of many), are really popular.<p>Need a new credit card, or a phone connection ? You can have a representative visit you. These kinda of services are primarily possible to India's abundance human resource (and various other factors of course).<p>In my opinion, these are more accessible that internet based services are they rely on a phone.<p>Its a pity that blog posts these get a lot of attention because of their extreme nature. Most of the local media tends to be sensationalistic, for grabbing eye balls I guess<p>My daily reads of good quality Indian news are<p>* <a href="http://www.thehindu.com/" rel="nofollow">http://www.thehindu.com/</a><p>* <a href="http://india.blogs.nytimes.com/" rel="nofollow">http://india.blogs.nytimes.com/</a><p><i>References:</i><p><i>1 Eg. <a href="http://justdial.com" rel="nofollow">http://justdial.com</a><p></i>2 Eg. <a href="http://www.delyver.com/" rel="nofollow">http://www.delyver.com/</a>

we are turning into communist nut-jobs. Thanks to the gandhi family and congress. <i>gandhi family were lead in forming the congress party which was formed under british rule to support british </i>indra gandhi declared an emergency and edited the constituent of india(made us socialist) *gandhi brought u features like no more than 20 SMS per mobile no more cars below 16 liter/KM average 10^32 scams a shitty budget that gives average family 1000Rs off on income tax while increasing taxes on corporations by a factor of 2 free mobile phones for poor(lol) the biggest mid day meal till date(billions Rs spend) ....I can go on all day<p>It was awesome during Atal Bihari Vajpayee time.<p>Wishing BJP(ie Modi) to take over...

IF I WANT TO GO US, I HAVE TO GIVE MY BLOOD, MY DNA. THIS IS DUE TO RISK FROM TERROIST. HAS THIS SYSTEM EVER STOPPED A TERROIST ATTACK.<p>AMERICA IS A POLICE STATE WHERE IF YOU DOWNLOAD AND SHARE A FEW SONGS, YOU WILL HAVE TO SELL YOUR HOUSE TO PAY THE OUTRAGEOUS FINES. ALL IN THE NAME IF THE RIAA.