Outlawed by Amazon DRM

Could you ever imagine a local retailer in your area breaking and entering into your home, taking away all your books, and then not giving you a straightforward explanation as to why they did so? Me neither. Breaking and entering into someone else's physical property, and talking away their physical possessions without explanation is so obviously wrong and illegal!<p>Yet that's pretty much what Amazon did to this poor woman, except in the digital realm: Amazon 'broke and entered' into her Kindle, took away all her books, and then did not give her a straightforward explanation as to why they did so.<p>More alarmingly, Amazon did this with impunity, because this woman never really owned "her" books or, for that matter, anything else she "purchased" on "her" Kindle. In the digital realm, what Amazon did to this woman is <i>perfectly legal</i>.<p>Legal or not, this looks, smells, and feels <i>so obviously wrong,</i> it ought to be illegal.

Tangentially related, I am getting very, very tired of "customer service" departments using phrases like:<p>"While we are unable to provide detailed information on how we link related accounts, please know that we have reviewed your account on the basis of the information provided and regret to inform you that it will not be reopened."<p>This happens more frequently: Google says this all the time, based on posts here; Amazon now does the same thing; even apartment rental companies will say "you've been turned down on the basis of this report that we don't know the contents of."<p>If your company can't reveal specific reasons or steps behind why an action was taken, DON'T TAKE THAT ACTION. Even my credit card issuer will tell me exactly why my card was flagged and they deal with ACTUAL MONEY. All these statements do is infuriate customers, create bad press, and drive away other customers. Scammers will just back up, look at their entire operation, and hammer away again with 300 new accounts so all you've accomplished is pissing off customers who want to do business with you.

The fact that Amazon <i>can</i> do this is obviously scary, particularly for those with extensive Kindle libraries. Personally I love the <i>idea</i> of ebooks but the publishers are doing their best to kill this market (eg <i>Surface Detail</i> in paperback is $6, as an ebook its $10 WTF?).<p>Now I can't speak to the truth of these claims. I have no inside knowledge but I will say this: be skeptical of such stories. I have seen other stories like this on HN where I have had some inside knowledge and I can tell you that there have definitely been cases that vary between being one side of the story to being a distortion of facts and events to being outright lies.<p>It's a common theme to have a post of "[BigCo] shut down my account for no reason". I describe such stories as "unverifiable stories in which the poster is a victim".<p>Like I said, this could all be exactly as the poster claims but it might not be as well. It could be as simple as the person having the same name as someone who got blocked in the US. Who knows? Amazon needs to be extremely careful to be right in situations like this or they risk undermining the ecosystem they've spent so long to create.<p>I don't mind buying Kindle novels because I tend to only ever read them once. And if they were $6 (like the paperbacks often are) I'd view them as a throwaway purchase.<p>But when it comes to technical books--books I'll often refer back to and that can cost much more--I'll have to make sure I either only buy the PDF version or I buy the PDF+mobi+epub upgrade from the publisher after buying the Kindle book (2 thumbs up to publishers who do this BTW).

This post really brings into focus just how right Richard Stallman was when he penned "The Right to Read":<p><a href="http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/right-to-read.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/right-to-read.html</a>

I e-mailed amazon using a feedback form[1]. following is what I wrote. I appreciate if other kindle owners can do the same to help Linn and for the greater good.<p>Dear Amazon,<p>Your service was really nice to me so far. But I happened to read a news that was not comforting. Following is a link to the story. <a href="http://www.bekkelund.net/2012/10/22/outlawed-by-amazon-drm/" rel="nofollow">http://www.bekkelund.net/2012/10/22/outlawed-by-amazon-drm/</a><p>This makes me hesitant about making any future purchases. I understand your right to act against any abuse but I also believe that users have a right know what was really going on, especially when they are being totally banished.<p>This email is to direct your attention towards the problem so you can have another chance of finishing things in a nicer way. I strongly believe DRM sucks but I also believe there are valid reasons for it to be there. The problem is not black or white. I'd like to see a solution that is acceptable for both parties (Amazon and the customer).<p>Thank you<p>[1] <a href="https://www.amazon.com/gp/help/contact-us/kindle-help.html/ref=kindle_help_forum_cu" rel="nofollow">https://www.amazon.com/gp/help/contact-us/kindle-help.html/r...</a>

Its getting to the point where I am seriously considering closing my Amazon account. I just don't like the way it does business any more. Can anyone recommend a good online bookseller in the UK? Is Waterstones any good?<p>The Guardian is running a story [1] today about how Amazon forces publishers to cover the cost of 20% VAT (sales tax) on ebook sales, even though it only pays 3% to the Luxembourg government (where it is based for tax purposes). It also insists that if a publisher offers a better price to another retailer then it must offer the same price to Amazon.<p>They also pay no corporation tax in the UK, despite sales of more than £3.3bn/yr [2], through being based in Luxembourg.<p>I was going to jump ship to The Book Depository, but Amazon bought them last year. Its hard to understand why this was allowed by the competition regulator, and it doesn't give me much confidence that the UK government has much interest in limiting their control of multiple markets.<p>[1] <a href="http://www.guardian.co.uk/technology/2012/oct/21/amazon-forces-publishers-pay-vat-ebook" rel="nofollow">http://www.guardian.co.uk/technology/2012/oct/21/amazon-forc...</a><p>[2] <a href="http://www.guardian.co.uk/technology/2012/apr/04/amazon-british-operation-corporation-tax" rel="nofollow">http://www.guardian.co.uk/technology/2012/apr/04/amazon-brit...</a>

I treat all E-books purchased with DRM as rentals.<p>When making a decision whether to buy or not, I look at the price and consider whether I'm willing to pay this much to rent the book for an indeterminate amount of time, possibly as little as 3 months. Quite often it turns out that the price is too high. But I never delude myself that I actually "own" any of the DRM-restricted content that I paid for.

The lack of transparency from Amazon here is worrying.<p>Because it appears to be Amazon UK dealing with the account holder I'd be interested to know if she would get anywhere by submitting a Subject Information Request [1].<p>Under the Data Protection Act 1998 an individual can submit a request for personal information held by an organization and they must comply within 40 days.<p>Whether she would get the information she is interested in, i.e. which account she is linked to, is another question.<p>[1] <a href="http://www.ico.gov.uk/for_the_public/personal_information/how_manage/access_info.aspx" rel="nofollow">http://www.ico.gov.uk/for_the_public/personal_information/ho...</a>

I wonder whether this is related to Linn living in Norway, purchasing from Amazon.com and somehow Amazon.co.uk are getting in the middle, perhaps because they run Europe from there.<p>It's the game that many people play - trying to find the best Amazon (or Apple) store when they live and travel between countries. This means a constant struggle to find a combination of credit card, store with enough content (The US is best) and a local address (virtual and actual) to satisfy arcane internal rules.<p>Please Amazon - please move to one global store where any credit card from any country can purchase any edition of any book. Please Amazon and Apple, let us combine content from multiple stores into one account, and let us have a global price based on the best market. Yo usell more stuff, we but more as well.<p>Meanwhile take the chance to collect, and pay to the local authorities, consumption/sales tax based on the location of the IP address, not the credit card or address of the buyer. That way if someone is standing in the UK, buying content from the USA, then they pay UK tax (VAT), making it fairer versus the physical and local virtual alternatives.

User pays money for something. Company withdraws products without notice and deliberately harms the user's device. Yes this is awful but the solution is as simple as it's always been:<p>1. Complain. Keep complaining all the way to the top.<p>2. Sue. If complaining doesn't get you want you've paid for (or your money back, inc the Kindle you now can't use), you've just been robbed and you need to take legal action. You might think you're under a billion and five EULAs but when challenged, courts seem to side with the user when the EULAs attempt to restrict rights that they're not allowed to impinge upon. There are various sales laws that are protected well beyond the words of an EULA.<p>If you don't do anything about it, you make it worse for everybody else because &#60;&#60;insert horrid company here&#62;&#62; thinks they can get away with it now.

I have a physical library of about 5K books. Should he want to, my son will be able to read those books.<p>The DRM'd books are a different story. I still want my son to be able to read them, but I have no assurance that the ebooks will be available to him fifteen years from now.<p>So I yank the DRM from all of my Amazon purchases. These I put on backups. I do not share them.<p>I would like to see legislation about the ownership of digital content, requiring that purchased content be accessible /at all times/ -- held in escrow, if necessary. Clearly defining a purchase is probably part of this.

I'm a comic book fan, and a while back I started buying comics digitally from Dark Horse's digital store. Being also a HN reader, I'm very aware of what these companies can do, how accounts are closed without notice, wiping all your previous purchases, etc. So obviously as my spending went up in that one digital store, I became concerned of what could happen, especially reading their FAQ that clearly state all my money gave me nothing other than a right to access their online system. So I did like any good geek and I poked around, used a few web developer tools, and found a way to save those comics to PDF, for backup purposes. Now, whenever I buy a new title, the first thing I do is save it as PDF, before even reading it. So now I'm no longer worried about what this company might do, and I encourage everyone who buys goods digitally to do the same. Of course it sucks that we have to do this, but right now that's the only option. Don't let yourself at the mercy of faceless corporations.

Apparently Amazon didn't wipe her Kindle: <a href="https://twitter.com/webmink/status/260432600814981120" rel="nofollow">https://twitter.com/webmink/status/260432600814981120</a>

I know it's not the best attitude, but if this ever happened to me I would simply pirate all the books I'd purchased from amazon, side load them onto my kindle and keep reading guilt free.<p>A part of me would like to dump amazon due to stories like this, but at the end of the day the whole set up is just too convenient (I can find, 'buy', and start reading a book in less than a minute directly from my kindle)<p>The worst part is that attitudes like mine are probably a big part of the reason Amazon will continue to get away with this. The even worse part is that I just don't care <i>enough</i> to do anything about it.<p>I wonder how many others there are like me who should know better, but enjoy the convenience too much?

I've had some friends caution me over the fact that I have a "license to read" my Amazon purchased books as opposed to "own" them, however that really never hit home until now. I understand this is the way the business model works, but the customer service presented here is terrible, no indication whatsoever as to what the real problem is and no way to find out, which is sad because usually Amazon has pretty good customer service (well in my experience, I've been using Amazon for about a decade now, and customer service sucked until around 2004 or so I think when it seemed to get better).

The worst part about this isn't so much the remote wipe of the device, but the eternal banning of the customer without recourse.<p>It doesn't matter if it's 30 or 50 years from now; this person has been told that for the rest of their life, until they die, that they are never again able to become a customer.<p>Sounds like a long time to be banned without being told why.

So even if we assume that Amazon was correct and that this account was closed because it was linked to another account that was closed because of 'abuse'.<p>I don't understand how that would justify or require revoking access to stuff that was already bought/licensed? You could simply deny the offending user access to buying new stuff instead.

A sentence like "We wish you luck in locating a retailer better able to meet your needs and will not be able to offer any additional insight or action on these matters" is the best explanation of the evil of monopoly.

Seems the blog is getting hit hard now. Here is the Google Cache: <a href="http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache%3Awww.bekkelund.net%2F2012%2F10%2F22%2Foutlawed-by-amazon-drm%2F&#38;oq=cache%3Awww.bekkelund.net%2F2012%2F10%2F22%2Foutlawed-by-amazon-drm%2F&#38;sourceid=chrome&#38;ie=UTF-8" rel="nofollow">http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache%3Awww.b...</a>

Surely this is what a small claims court could be used for?<p>I haven't read the Amazon TOS but is it really as simple as "you rent this book for as long as we feel like and we can revoke it for no reason"?<p>In which case I would be somewhat surprised if this really held up in a court, for example what happens if you buy a book and they immediately decide to revoke the license 1 second after purchase?

I'm not saying this to be rude, so I apologize in advance if you personally take offence:<p>In my mind, you're a complete idiot if you are an e-book consumer at this point in time.<p>You essentially rent the book for a price often higher than owning a physical copy of the exact same material. All this for the slight mobility advantage, and instant purchase ability. You can't share your ebooks with friends. You run the risk that the publisher might decide you're no longer worthy of that purchase.<p>I question the sanity of any person that has done a pro/con comparison and actually judged e-books to be superior. My guess is that most people don't bother to actually think about these purchases.<p>e-books can and should be revolutionary, but what is on offer now is essentially nothing more than window dressing - and people are eating it up.

It seems that the Norwegian consumer protection agency have heard about this case and have started looking into it (link in Norwegian <a href="http://www.itavisen.no/904648/forbrukerraadet-helt-haarreisende" rel="nofollow">http://www.itavisen.no/904648/forbrukerraadet-helt-haarreise...</a> ).<p>It's going to be interesting to see if they are able to get any traction on this. They actually might since her contact in Amazon seemed to be working for Amazon.co.uk, and Norway is part of the EU's inner market.

&#62; <i>How will she ever find the means to get her books back? By suing a large corporation half-way round the earth?</i><p>IANAL. But for anyone in a similar situation, consumer protection law is usually better than you think. Don't assume you can't sue, or have to sue in another country, just because the contract says you do. Consumer protection laws can trump contracts!<p>In particular, for anyone in EU or EFTA at least (i.e. part of the Brussels regime for determining jurisdiction to sue, <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brussels_Regime" rel="nofollow">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brussels_Regime</a> ), who is acting as a consumer, you can sue in your own country: "<i>A consumer may bring proceedings against the other party to a contract either in the courts... in which that party is domiciled or in the courts... in which he is himself domiciled.</i>"<p>If Amazon want to do business in a country, they have to abide by the consumer laws of that country.<p>I am not a lawyer. Get yourself a lawyer and know your rights!

an increased number of stories like this will make the book pirating underground a lot more attractive to a wider audience. it exists, it's not quite napster-like yet but it's getting there. no DRM, a potentially wider catalog, etc.<p>this is a risk for publishers and loss-leaders (like amazon) alike.

First, it's important to note that we don't have very much information yet. Given what I've read so far, I assume stupidity on the part of Amazon.<p>Before everyone starts hating on Amazon specifically, remember that this same thing would happen with Apple, Xbox Live, or Barnes &#38; Noble accounts. It's not that all these companies want to have DRM. It's the content owners who dictate the terms of licensing.

I can absolutely agree that the story is very disturbing, however I also believe that it is an Amazon's right as a private company to do whatever the hell it wants with products an services it provides. The problem is not that it can or cannot legally wipe out the contents of its devices, the problem is that there's not enough competition yet. If Amazon was in a very harsh competition with any another company for ebook market (which I believe it currently isn't) a story like this would undoubtedly drive a substantial amount of customers to competitors. What Amazon currently does, it enjoys a temporary situation in which it is a market leader. Since ebooks is not exactly a very regulated industry, I don't think it's too long before we actually have a serious competition.

If they do that with books, this could happen with AWS?!<p>Dear Sir/Madam,<p>We've deleted your EC2, S3... Services and Permanently suspended your AWS account due to it's been linked to another account somewhere on the internet. In other words your companies services/product/startup is offline without notice and we don't care.

I have hundreds of Kindle books, preferentially buy Kindle books, and also have 150+ Audible audiobooks (also owned by Amazon).<p>I've always been afraid of what might happen to vendor-controlled content (either cloud servers or DRM), so I maintain a local de-DRM'd version of every file. For Audible, I actually had to go through a download, aac playback in iTunes to mp3 compression, mp3 file split workflow to make Audible books work with the RNS-E audio in my audi (it has built-in SD slots to play MP3, but the iPod in interface won't work with Audible due to DRM restrictions in their app).<p>It's a shame that you have to go through all this trouble just to use things you've legally purchased. It's sort of ok when the system just works (like Steam does now, although it didn't always), but horrible when you don't trust the vendor much and where the software doesn't work very well (EA Origin...).<p>I don't think I'd buy anything where there wasn't at least a technical workaround to rip to servers and formats under my control.

I own 2 kindles. Got one more for Mum also. I need to get my books out ASAP. Somehow, feel very cheated. Nobody can walk into your house and take away your paperbook. This is theft! And then the arrogance of no explanations.

There is new information here:<p>Rights? You have no right to your eBooks. <a href="http://blogs.computerworlduk.com/simon-says/2012/10/rights-you-have-no-right-to-your-ebooks/index.htm" rel="nofollow">http://blogs.computerworlduk.com/simon-says/2012/10/rights-y...</a><p>Edited to add: So this seems to be a case of a used Kindle's UDID being tied to a previously-suspended account and she got caught in the dragnet by buying that device used without knowing of its history. At some point -- if someone can get through to a live human being at Amazon -- this should all be straightened out. This is yet another reason why everyone should be careful buying used electronics with UDIDs (see eBay and Craigslist for all the "clean ESN" mentions for used phones!).

She should clearly pursue this in small claims court in the UK. She should be able to do this with a foreign address even. Easy and effective. <a href="https://www.gov.uk/make-money-claim-online" rel="nofollow">https://www.gov.uk/make-money-claim-online</a>

That's very frightening, makes me reconsider buying more e-books from Amazon...

I have a Kindle but I don't want to have to do with Amazon. What is the best open firmware so far I can flash into it?<p>I'd like to retain ability to send documents from my computer to my Kindle over the internet.

This is why you should use a DRM removal tool and use a third party e-book reader on an Android tablet.

Should have pirated. You get a better product.

I am curious: could a story like this happen in the United States?<p>According to my reading of the legal case (I am not a lawyer, but it would be interesting if any of you are could comment - grellas, perhaps) regarding Amazon's remote deletion of <i>Nineteen Eighty-Four</i> and <i>Animal Farm</i>, the settlement involving that case appears to protect what happened in this story from happening to users in the United States.<p>Of course, it goes without saying that I do not agree with how things went down in this story, where a person has absolutely no recourse with Amazon, with the proverbial door completely shut in their face. However, I find it interesting that, again, according to my interpretation of the aforementioned settlement, it appears that Kindle units that are purchased and used in the United States are afforded special protections by law from what specifically happened in the story (i.e., the settlement outlines very specific cases where remote deletion can occur, but they do not appear to apply with regard to what happened in the story).<p>Is my reading of this correct? If so, why aren't all Kindle owners afforded this protection?<p>Here is the citation from the settlement [1]:<p>"For copies of Works purchased pursuant to TOS granting "the non-exclusive right to keep a permanent copy" of each purchased Work and to "view, use and display [such Works] an unlimited number of times, solely on the [Devices] . . . and solely for [the purchasers'] personal, non-commercial use," Amazon will not remotely delete or modify such Works from Devices purchased and being used in the United States unless<p>(a) the user consents to such deletion or modification;<p>(b) the user requests a refund for the Work or otherwise fails to pay for the Work (e.g., if a credit or debit card issuer declines to remit payment);<p>(c) a judicial or regulatory order requires such deletion or modification; or<p>(d) deletion or modification is reasonably necessary to protect the consumer or the operation of a Device or network through which the Device communicates (e.g., to remove harmful code embedded within a copy of a Work downloaded to a Device).<p>This paragraph does not apply to<p>(a) applications (whether developed or offered by Amazon or by third parties), software or other code;<p>(b) transient content such as blogs; or<p>(c) content that the publisher intends to be updated and replaced with newer content as newer content becomes available. With respect to newspaper and magazine subscriptions, nothing in this paragraph prohibits the current operational practice pursuant to which older issues are automatically deleted from the Device to make room for newer issues, absent affirmative action by the Device user to save older issues."<p>[1] <a href="http://assets.bizjournals.com/cms_media/pdf/KindleCase1.pdf?site=techflash.com" rel="nofollow">http://assets.bizjournals.com/cms_media/pdf/KindleCase1.pdf?...</a>

Something very similar happened to my seller account late last year. The emails were very similar -- including the cause for the closure (alleged linkage to a previously closed account). Story here:<p><a href="http://aaron.kavlie.net/2011/12/web/amazon-com-just-closed-my-seller-account-no-warning-no-details/" rel="nofollow">http://aaron.kavlie.net/2011/12/web/amazon-com-just-closed-m...</a><p>My story got to the top spot on Hacker News and, thanks to the exposure there, Amazon reversed its decision. At no point did I get anything that looked like a personalized response -- just terse form emails that didn't divulge any details.<p>What surprises me the most about this story is that they use the same approach with the consumer end of the business. I figured that the ham-handed treatment I got was due to Amazon's lack of care for that particular piece of their business, and that any issue with <i>buyers</i> would be taken up with more personal attention, and provide ample opportunity for appeal. Guess I was wrong.

Am I the only one thinking there is more to this story than what has been leaked so far ? I don't usually step up to the defense of corporate America but in my dealings with Amazon, I haven't encountered anything but stellar customer service. I hope Amazon releases more about the specifics that led them to take such a draconian action. This is either a terrible mistake that'll come with profuse apology &#38; additional scrutiny at their (maybe trigger happy) fraud processes....or a last ditch action to deal with a serious violation. Either way, this will need to be explained, for now conclusions are being drawn on the basis of nothing but speculation.

Is a Kindle usable without an Amazon account ?

What did we expect?<p>When everything works we all ooh and aah over how great Kindle and a thousand other things like it are. When someone tries to bring a more expensive product to market we scoff and criticize and shake our heads.<p>Well kids, "cheap" has its price, and the price is shitty, impersonal, bullshit customer service. Amazon has been great at customer service for many years in their physical goods-business, but to push cost down for electronic services, this is what you have to expect.<p>In the future things will be cheap and human interaction will be at a premium.

The worst part is the blatant arrogance of Mr. Michael Murphy, who does not at all consider the possibility of it all being a misunderstanding or some error on Amazon's behalf, and giving the customer no option to rectify the issue.<p>These are two options for who Michael Murphy is:<p><a href="http://www.linkedin.com/pub/michael-murphy/17/b72/231" rel="nofollow">http://www.linkedin.com/pub/michael-murphy/17/b72/231</a><p><a href="http://www.linkedin.com/pub/michael-murphy/0/b84/9b5" rel="nofollow">http://www.linkedin.com/pub/michael-murphy/0/b84/9b5</a>

First a disclaimer: I think this is outrageous and hope that her account is restored.<p>Now my questions:<p>Does her account use her home address? That seems unlikely as she is in Norway but is dealing with Amazon US. What are the rules for purchasing content when you're not resident? Could this be the problem? If so that sucks.<p>Secondly, it appears that she began her Kindle odyssey with a used Kindle. Could that be what links her account to a fraudulent one? A unique ID from one of her devices has been used by someone else in the past?

Am I the only one who will take Amazon's action and level of customer service into consideration when deciding on a cloud hosting provider, Amazon Web Services vs. others?<p>Accounts are accounts on Amazon and will they link a consumer account you or your developers use with an account you use for hosting business web sites on EC2?<p>Or, reading the blog entry, will they mistakenly link another account with your other Amazon accounts, including the one you use for EC2?...

I have sympathy for the lady (and others) who lost their Kindle books.<p>However, I am going to take the opposition view here because I feel like people don't understand 'the beast' also known as Amazon.<p>Amazon optimizes on low margins, and cheap prices for goods (both physical and electronic). Amazon optimizes on the benefit to the mass majority of their customers at the expense of a small minority who do occasionally get "thrown under the bus."<p>I buy lots of Kindle books, but there are a few things I do to mitigate risk. First, for technical books I try to buy from publishers who have daily 30% to 50% off sales where I get PDF, a MOBI (Kindle format), and a iPub files. Secondly, I buy a physical book if I think that a book will have long term value (for example, I would read it several times during a financial meltdown when electricity is scarce, and we spend most of our time grubbing around for food - this has happened in Argentina, Russia, Iraq, etc., and it may well happen sometime in the USA). Thirdly, I buy "good deals" on the Kindle; for example, I am reading James Joyce's "Ulysses" right now and I only paid about $2 for it - a great bargain.

Looks like the database is down. Here's the cached version:<p><a href="http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?hl=en&#38;output=search&#38;sclient=psy-ab&#38;q=cache%3Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.bekkelund.net%2F2012%2F10%2F22%2Foutlawed-by-amazon-drm%2F&#38;oq=cache%3Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.bekkelund.net%2F2012%2F10%2F22%2Foutlawed-by-amazon-drm%2F" rel="nofollow">http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?hl=en&#38;outpu...</a>

Interesting link to an Amazon.com Kindle Help discussion by the blog author:<p><a href="http://www.amazon.com/gp/help/customer/forums/kindleqna/ref=kindle_help_forum_tft_tp?ie=UTF8&#38;cdForum=Fx1GLDPZMNR1X53&#38;cdThread=Tx2VVCMMPS41HGW" rel="nofollow">http://www.amazon.com/gp/help/customer/forums/kindleqna/ref=...</a>

<i>Update: Simon Phipp sez, "Kindlegate update: Linn says her account was mysteriously re-activated after my article published."</i><p>via <a href="http://boingboing.net/2012/10/22/kindle-user-claims-amazon-dele.html" rel="nofollow">http://boingboing.net/2012/10/22/kindle-user-claims-amazon-d...</a>

Whether the story is completely true, whether it has another side, or if it's a complete farce, we understand this situation could happen under the agreements we make to Amazon and just about every other digital services provider (yes, we've jumped from goods to services). When we understand that, don't take action, and continue purchasing from any of the companies that legalese themselves onto a fortified high ground that disadvantages consumers to this degree, we're part of the problem.<p>The very fact this story is this popular is because we all understand it could happen to us, think that by upvoting it, commenting on it, and sharing it, we're making a difference, but then we go right back to Amazon and purchase more things. Perpetuating the cycle.

Update: seems her access was just reinstated. No further comments from Amazon, but their PR team did clarify that account status has nothing to do with access to your book's library" -- this is positive news, but still need further clarification. How can I download my books without my account?<p><i>"We would like to clarify our policy on this topic. Account status should not affect any customer's ability to access their library. If any customer has trouble accessing their content, he or she should contact customer service for help. Thank you for your interest in Kindle."</i><p><a href="http://boingboing.net/2012/10/22/kindle-user-claims-amazon-dele.html" rel="nofollow">http://boingboing.net/2012/10/22/kindle-user-claims-amazon-d...</a>

Damn you all, you're so naive...<p>1/ Amazon is a private company. 2/ You don't buy books from them, you buy a license to read them.<p>So by buying a book, you agree with their power. If you don't like to be in such control, then please, apply one of the start up credo : find a better competitor.<p>But don't complain, please.<p>(and the same goes with Apple who surely has some super control on your phone, and don't complain about FaceBook when they'll kill your account when you don't behave.)<p>Welcome to the privacy nightmare you all voted for by buying their shiny stuff.<p>Another option is : court ! Hey but you don't have enough money ? Hey, but that's what happens when you deal alone with a megacorp : you're just a small insect.<p>Funny people often forget that...<p>stF

A random idea but perhaps she logged in with her account onto a public computer that had been used by someone for fraud? I don't know, she should use EU law against Amazon - it should apply as they're operating in the EU.

This is why I will not buy proprietary readers like Kindle, nor access to any digital media for which I do not get my very own copy of a file I can back up on my very own hard-drives. The story doesn't particularly make me hate Amazon- it's just one anecdote, and I've had great experiences with Amazon customer service myself- but it shows what <i>can</i> be done. No matter how much I might like Amazon's other services, I will never trust any company not to do anything that they are technically capable of doing. To keep them from screwing you over, don't give them the power to do so.

Here's a fun game to illustrate why we should be interested in protecting consumer rights to maintain their own libraries of digital goods.<p>Go back through the New York Time Best Seller list in 5 year increments, and see at what point you start reaching books you've never heard of and that are no longer in print.<p>It's pretty revealing that except for novels that are in school curriculum or transferred to another medium (book, TV) the majority of best sellers are only relevant for 15-20 years.<p>If you're in your late 30s or old, try to find a new copy of some favourite novels from your adolescence. Good luck.

If she has made any recent purchases, doing a chargeback would be an option.

I was recently interested in purchasing eBooks from Morgan Kaufmann. "The UX Book: Process and Guidelines for Ensuring a Quality User Experience" costs $89.95 USD; surely for that insane price your eBook would be DRM-free, right? Wrong. Both ePub and PDF use Adobe Adept (Inept) DRM.<p>You can try to find the Kindle/iBook version, but as this article points out "its a license to read" ... and very often, the quality of the digital conversion is very poor, especially for literature with illustrations.<p>DRM-free PDF is the only way for me.

I don't think I'll ever buy into a closed system like Amazon ebooks. Seems like you can have so much eggs in one basket and they can just smash your eggs w/o giving any reason. I don't read a lot of books for my free time. I have a safari books account at work that I use a lot. It is nice since it is kind of like Netflix. It's just a subscription, so they can't pull anything crazy like Amazon is doing here. I also like the feel of actual books, and they are nice decorations in your house.

Its real simple folks. Refuse to do business with Amazon or any affiliates (sites hosted with AWS, amazon affiliates). It was once said if you are not a part of the solution, you are part of the problem. The solution is to make Amazon feel your displeasure in their bottom line.<p>It is pathetic what we have allowed corporations to do to us when we are the one's providing them the power to do it. Maybe we, as a society, have just become too lazy and complacent to worry about being trampled on?

It would be interesting to hear Amazon's side of the story. It just doesn't seem like something <i>any</i> digital retailer would do.<p>Assuming Lynn did no wrong and this is entirely a fraud algorithm problem on Amazon's side, you would think there is a higher authority within Amazon to dispute the problem. It's a shame they they didn't offer her anything in terms of dispute resolution or fraud prevention.<p>I'm going to email Amazon's feedback link as chanux did, I hope the larger HN community does the same.

This sounds disturbing to me since I too live far away from Amazon's jurisdiction and I clearly know I would be even more helpless in a case like this.<p>Amazon's service was so sweet I didn't mind the DRM, the metaphorical diabetes. It seems now is the time to open my eyes and (again) realize 'RMS is always right'. I think I will stop buying any amazon e-book at least until I hear something good regarding this issue.

&#62; The fact that Amazon can do this is<p>It is detailed in the contract few people bother to read prior to signing!<p>.<p>&#62; The problem? Microsoft has your operating system,<p>&#62; Google has your email, eBay has your stuff, PayPal<p>&#62; has your money, Amazon has your books, Facebook has<p>&#62; your social life, etc.<p>.<p>The problem is YOU GAVE each of those entities information out of hand with misplaced trust.<p>.<p>&#62; We need to push for a universal option for arbitration<p>Push for less inane contractual terms first. Then change the cultural ethos of wrong-tolerance.

Regarding the policy violation, is it possible the problem was the fact she lived in Norway and was using amazon.com?<p>My experience, as a Canadian, is that Amazon encourages use of amazon.ca (your local version of their site) and you have to go through some tricks to use Amazon.com.<p>Many of my friends did because that was the only way to get a kindle and books for years. Are they all at risk of this?

FWIW, I'm from Norway, and this story <i>seems</i> legit - although it hasn't (yet) blown up in dead tree media over here. I think it just might.<p>On a related note (unfortunately not an alternative to everything Amazon offers):<p><a href="http://www.tor.com/blogs/2012/07/torforge-e-books-are-now-drm-free" rel="nofollow">http://www.tor.com/blogs/2012/07/torforge-e-books-are-now-dr...</a>

I would think this is actionable in the US. Her being in Norway complicates things.<p>I've spent more than $1k on ebooks for my kindle. If Amazon did this to me they'd definitely have a lawsuit on their hands. Not because I would win in court, but because I could use it as a springboard to do millions of dollars in damage to their reputation.

&#62; get her books back?<p>They aren't her books, they aren't even books in the physical sense. They are the copyright owner's "books". All she had (and paid for) were licenses to display (in limited fashion) "books".<p>Linn might not like this, she should fight (infinite, broad) copyright which is the root of all this evil, not Amazon.

I understand the fear expressed here by a number of people that this might happen to them, but honestly? I think the answer here is pretty mundane and deserves a bit of perspective.<p>Some low level intern screwed up somewhere. While that hardly excuses Amazon for their exceptionally horrendous CS in this case (usually they're know for being good on that front), ask yourself:<p><pre><code> * How many customers does Amazon have? * How many instances of this have ever happened? * How likely is it to happen again? </code></pre> The answers there are "a hell of a lot" (&#62;100M), not many, and not very.<p>One cockup with one customer hasn't shaken my faith in Amazon's ecosystem. They're going to have to try a lot harder in order to achieve that goal.<p>Look at another platform like Steam. I'd say they have even more issues because they'll actually dismiss people from the service for things like card chargebacks or restrict multiplayer account-wide in case of cheating. They've had errors too. They're rare and statistically insignificant, just like in this case.<p>And for the love of god if you're going to downvote me, please at least bother to explain why so we can all learn something.

Which is why I never purchase DRM goods if I can possibly avoid it. Support vendors that don't have DRM.

I hate when retailers make piracy tools necessary even if you paid. Head to the Apprentice Alf's Blog.

This entire situation is the foundation of my reluctance to completely shift to 'online media'. I have always understood that I would be leasing the media and that it could be terminated for cause just as the article related. Rough stuff.

I am really infuriated by this. It's high time one of us build's Kindle's competition. DRM "must" not be handled by the store. If DRM has to exist, it should be the prerogative of the author not the store owner. What the hell man!!

This is theft. Yet if someone were to get caught shoplifting, they'd face jailtime.

Apparently, Amazon did not delete the books from her Kindle. See the twit:<p><a href="http://boingboing.net/2012/10/22/kindle-user-claims-amazon-dele.html" rel="nofollow">http://boingboing.net/2012/10/22/kindle-user-claims-amazon-d...</a>

We're only hearing one side, has anyone else questioned how true this story is?

This sucks big time !! I'd be so pissed if this was me !<p>I've mailed amazon to hear if this is the norm.<p>I don't really expect a response, but hopefully a few 1000's emails like that will at least let them give the situation more attention ?

It's almost as if they want to drive people to alernate ways of acquiring content...<p>I still read a mix of kindle stuff and paper books, but the kindle is invaluable for travelling light. This is disappointing to hear about.

Never ever buy e-books from Amazon, only physical books and things. Especially because all e-stuff on your Amazon account can be permanently deleted without any option to restore (except to buy it again).

Just had the following support chat with an Amazon rep:<p>Me:I have really enjoyed Kindle on multiple devices so far but I just read the following account of a different Kinde customer and am <i>appalled</i> at Amazon's treatment of this individual: <a href="http://www.bekkelund.net/2012/10/22/outlawed-by-amazon-drm/" rel="nofollow">http://www.bekkelund.net/2012/10/22/outlawed-by-amazon-drm/</a> Is it really true that at any moment, Amazon could delete all my books and not tell me the reason? If so, I strongly request that Amazon revisit its DRM rules &#38; regulations. Thanks! Hi Elakkiya!<p>Elakkiya:Hello, I'm Elakkiya from Amazon Kindle support.I'll be happy to help you today<p>Me:awesome Basically it comes down to these terms cited by Amazon Exec Michael Murphy in his letter: "Per our Conditions of Use which state in part: Amazon.co.uk and its affiliates reserve the right to refuse service, terminate accounts, remove or edit content, or cancel orders at their sole discretion." Is this true? Without needing to cite any reasons whatsoever, is Amazon able to delete all my books?<p>Elakkiya:I'm sorry for the inconvenience you had about this. May I place you on hold for 1 to 2 minutes while I check this for you?<p>Me:Sure No inconvenience so far for ME just for the person in that article so I'm asking if it is factually correct<p>Elakkiya:Thanks for waiting.<p>Me:sure<p>Elakkiya:It seems there was some problem with the account. This is the reason for the account closure.<p>Me:obviously. :) the appalling thing is that amazon doesn't want to tell her what problem so my question is: does Amazon not NEED to tell its customers which problem an account has before closing it? obviously amazon needs to have the right to close accounts but i'd say in those cases it also has the responsibility to state why more than a hand-wavy "there were problems"<p>Elakkiya:May I place you on hold for 1 to 2 minutes while I check this for you?<p>Me:sure<p>Elakkiya:Thanks for waiting.<p>Me:sure<p>Elakkiya:On further going through this issue, I see that I need to transfer your concern to the appropriate department who handle these kind of issues.<p>Me:ok please do that. will they respond via email then?<p>Elakkiya:Yes, you should hear back from them in the next 1-2 business days.<p>Me:great. i assume you have my email since i'm logged in, right?<p>Elakkiya:Yes,John.<p>Me:Thanks, Elakkiya. Have a great day!<p>Elakkiya:You're welcome. Thank you for visiting Amazon.com. We look forward to seeing you again soon.

We simply must stop signing all power over to corporations in exchange for use of their toys. Until people start voting with their wallet, these types of things will only become more common.

Seems like her account has been opened up again for some reason . . . <a href="http://goo.gl/MZVzZ" rel="nofollow">http://goo.gl/MZVzZ</a> (Norwegian website digi.no via google translate)

IANAL, but I believe that the Personopplysningsloven is compliant with Directive 95/46/EC; of which Article 12 has provisions against the behaviour exhibited by Amazon in this exchange.

Actually, DRM at its finest. Until enough people get screwed by DRM, the R from DRM will come from Rights instead of Restrictions.<p>Unfortunately, I see no shortage for stories like this in the future.

I've been on the fence about Kindles for me and the kids. Think this has tipped the balance. I had heard rumors about how draconian Amazon was being, seems it was true.

This is why it's extremely important to use programs like Calibre to back up all your Amazon or Nook or whatever else purchases.

I wonder how much this is going to cost them in lost sales.<p>If everything is as stated - I have no reason to doubt it - it's very disappointing.

Well my Kindle 3G doesn't work anymore, I was planning on buying the new one... Now I know I won't. Thanks for the reminder

Stallman becomes more relevant everyday.

This guy sounds like a total jerk. Reminds me of some exchanges I had with Paypal's customer support.

Oof. That would be horrible. I need to crack the DRM on my books and move them to a safe place ASAP.

Breaking DRM and making personal backups should be the first step for those who use such services.

So now corporations also have no-fly lists? Fantastic.

Need something that hacks Amazon's control of Kindles.

Another reason to buy a Kobo instead of a kindle.

That's why we still need local storage.

This is even more scary for people/startups with their entire business on ec2.

Well, that's the last time I buy a kindle or any books from Amazon. ePub and other non-DRM formats exist. Luckily, I have only bough a few books so far that were not free.<p>Of course, for the ones willing to search, the truth is out there ... but the truth is copyrighted. That's what they forgot to mention in the X-Files.

This is something that's always in the back of mind.<p>Yes the Kindle is awesome, but how hard is it for a bookstore to come to your house and repossess a book?

Pfft only more reason to use "free" websites for ebook downloads such as coinread.com